How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[HeedmySpeed]

I just have a question, just how many wipes and hours are is this "gap" able to handle?
This is probably the biggest variable here.

You can still raid with friends, if you're dying to the first boss you're still raiding. The problem is you aren't making progress.... in the time they see fit.

[Pua]

I just have a question, just how many wipes and hours are is this "gap" able to handle?
This is probably the biggest variable here.

You can still raid with friends, if you're dying to the first boss you're still raiding. The problem is you aren't making progress.... in the time they see fit.

Yeah, could be. I'm inclined to think it's more nuanced than that, though.

I think players can actually put up with a lot of wipes if they feel, collectively, that they're getting somewhere. Let's say, for arguments sake, that 30 wipes on Horridon looks like this:

1 to 5 wipes = door one.
5 to 10 wipes = door two.
10 to 15 wipes = door three.
15 to 20 wipes = door four.
20 to 25 wipes = War God Jalak.
25 to 30 wipes = Horridon's 'enrage'.

Now, another guild, looks like this:

1 to 15 wipes = door one.
15 to 30 wipes = door two.

I'd imagine it's pretty safe to say that the 31st pull will happen for group 1 and far less likely for group 2 who, in reality, probably gave up far earlier. Neither guild is statistically more successful than the other, while the first group has also been raiding for a lot longer time because their pulls are longer. I think the key for the encounter designers is to try and avoid making encounters that start harder than they finish early in an instance (OHAI HALFUS), because I personally feel players will stick with something longer if they feel they're actually getting somewhere.

Obviously, this isn't very easy. :x

[Nobleshield]

I'd imagine it's pretty safe to say that the 31st pull will happen for group 1 and far less likely for group 2 who, in reality, probably gave up far earlier. Neither guild is statistically more successful than the other, while the first group has also been raiding for a lot longer time because their pulls are longer. I think the key for the encounter designers is to try and avoid making encounters that start harder than they finish early in an instance (OHAI HALFUS), because I personally feel players will stick with something longer if they feel they're actually getting somewhere.

This is the biggest thing, bigger than this "gap" argument that is going nowhere. Players will stick and keep trying if they feel they're making progress. If they aren't, people get disgruntled and burned out and don't want to bother showing up. Like I've been saying, you could appease the "scrub" guilds by having the first few bosses be little better than loot pinatas (like around Marrowgar/Morchok difficulty, with differing mechanics obviously), designed to be gotten quickly on farm within a handful of lockouts. Then you have the harder bosses. The "I want a challenge" crowd gets harder bosses, and have the easier bosses for the fun "Hey let's screw around before we get serious" moments, or to bring alts/friends that don't normally raid and then swap them out later. The average/scrub guilds can do some progress and down a couple of bosses, and then if they can't down the harder boss it's not such a huge deal because they know they can consistently get to Boss #6 every week, instead of Boss #2 within an hour or whatever and spend the rest of their raid night wiping, and everyone logs off feeling like they wasted their time.

[Deleted]

The problem i see with this gap, is the vast amount of abilities bosses have these days combined with the lack of an entry raid.

TBC and Wrath both had entry raids that started off easier and got harder as they progressed.
Cata changed all that by being as hard as ICC was right out of the gate in its first tier and its a philosophy that has continued through MOP.

These days there is so much aoe and graphical effects going on in a fight, so many mechanics many people find it hard to see what is going on and fail at mechanics.

Today normal modes are getting harder than older top tier content was and its driving people out of raiding because it isn't fun.

[Deleted]

I agree with people that said that ToT should have a difficulty curve, because Jin'rokh is so easy and Horridon in comparison super hard, and Twin consort again so easy that I felt like Blizzard just wanted to give us their loot without challenge. So in my idea, changing the bosses around would probably be the best option - I know, it would screw up the storyline but hey

Being in a guild that has cleared all MoP content on at least normal, I can't see the gap myself, but I do think that everyone who just dinged 90 should probably do tons of dailies and T14 raids to get used to their class and the requirements of the new expansion and then progress onto ToT whenever they're ready. I believe that if you are not willing to put in the time and effort it needs to prepare yourself than you shouldn't be raiding - I know it sounds harsh but it wouldn't be right either to take all the fun out for the guilds that have cleared ToT on normal and find the difficulty appropriate.

[Deleted]

The problem i see with this gap, is the vast amount of abilities bosses have these days combined with the lack of an entry raid.

TBC and Wrath both had entry raids that started off easier and got harder as they progressed.
Cata changed all that by being as hard as ICC was right out of the gate in its first tier and its a philosophy that has continued through MOP.

These days there is so much aoe and graphical effects going on in a fight, so many mechanics many people find it hard to see what is going on and fail at mechanics.

Today normal modes are getting harder than older top tier content was and its driving people out of raiding because it isn't fun.

And thats probably what is really missing some easy entry raid for people who want to start raiding. And raids getting harder through the expansion after that.
LFR is not that platform. You do not connect with other people on your realm, like you would in a pug. And you will still have to search for a guild or group anyways to start normal modes.

[Deleted]

You're ignoring what this whole post was about.

The gap.

Raiding has never been harder than it is now, while the rest of the game has (arguably) never been easier. That's why the raiding jump is wiping people out, because the gap is too big.

46 pages and you still don't get this?

That's absolutely staggering.

lol
my point was is there was no fucking gap because there was just one level of raids, either you could do it or had to gtfo. Nowdays you have 3 difficulity choices and people are still crying there is no niche for them. Thats fucking staggering.

[Deleted]

Yes, we had one level of raids back then. We also had a tier of heroic dungeons underneath where you could actually die if you went retarding in, meaning you had to learn what those now dusty buttons in your spellbook did. We had "training mode" guilds raiding every tier right til the end of TBC; meaning you could start in Kara and progress to a guild going into Sunwell, as I did. We had content underneath the raids that actually prepared the then-modern playerbase for the demands of their roles. Even levelling up then carried the risk of actually being killed.
None of that is comparable to what we have now.
LFR is essentially mongo-proof and teaches no player how to play. Said brand new player (this means they didn't play the same length of time as us - a point people keep overlooking) gets themselves to 502 perhaps having been a decent way up the damage meter in LFR and thinks "Oh yeah man, this raiding thing is obviously easy mode lol". They get into a guild raiding normals that is full of people like them who've never known what wiping for weeks was like. What they know is that bosses live five minutes and drop loot. They go to Horridon and they die. A lot. They play a class with utility, but nobody ever told them how that utility could be, well, utilised. If they never learn this, how are they ever going to be good enough to join one of your guilds when your good player finally gives up and needs replaced?

Forgiving 10 man normal mode content, in WOTLK at least, was a way for people who maybe weren't quite 25 man level to get a few bosses down and progress their characters. They absolutely can't do this now - me personally I get properly hacked off several times a raid at the stupid things people I play with do. Things we could probably have gotten away with if normals were tuned a bit lighter. The average 10 man guild wipes to Horridon. The average 25 man guild wipes to Lei Shen. Balanced?

[Stellalock]

We are a normal 10 man raiding guild and we are sat at 5/12n. We raid for 5-6 hours a week and are slowly but surely making progress. We have people away week to week but keep the core players together as much as possible, we have up to tortos on farm and are still getting used to magera. Are we thinking its too hard? no! We killed 1-3 pre-nerf and enjoyed it.

What do I think should come between LFR and Normals? NOTHING, but hard work and skill. I was a TBC 25 man raider and learnt to raid, I try and pass that on to our 3rd 10 man raid team and those wanting to raid and am writing a guild guide to raiding, so these inexperienced players know what it takes to step up to normal raiding and that should not be gear, it should be preparation. If they are prepared and the raid leader is prepared, it then comes down to practice and a good mental attitude. Spending weeks in SSC wiping on bosses was fun and I dont mind it in ToT.

There are plenty of ways to get higher gear that LFR, be that through Hc Scenarios, VP, etc. which will help players progress instead of waiting for raid bosses.

On what Blizz were looking to do with LFR (let non-raiders see raiding) I feel it has been a success. The people in the groups may ruin it for some, but others get to see it, that never would. If they have no interest in Normal raiding, why add a new tier for them to complain about saying it is too far from Normal, or takes too long, or looks the same as LFR. People will always complain.

My only complaint about LFR is that you actually get to kill the final boss in the raid on that level before most normal raiding guilds (this includes me, who does LFR until my gear has surpassed it to maximise my output in normals). So when i eventually kill Garrosh, hopefully before the patch is out of date, I will have seen the end cinematic, the party, etc and feel a little deflated when I earn it on normal. I think the final boss in LFR should have a lich king style "you all die" ability at 5%, but then the raid be rescued by Vol'jin or Thrall and pulled back to life and rewarded with a cache of loot. Then 4 weeks from end of tier, switch to the proper ending so LFR raiders get to see it too, maybe even add higher than LFR gear at this point, as a reward for their patience.

Overall, I like that Normal 10 is hard and same as 25, as we are on a low horde pop server, I like that Heroic raiding IS heroic and not an entitlement and I like that LFR is there for non-normal/heroic raiders and has utility to progression raiders too, be that for legnedary quest progression, VP or some gear.

[Pua]

lol
my point was is there was no fucking gap because there was just one level of raids, either you could do it or had to gtfo. Nowdays you have 3 difficulity choices and people are still crying there is no niche for them. Thats fucking staggering.

Are you really... I just can't...

I don't want an infraction, but I simply can't believe you typed that. It's asinine. I'm going to give you one more go, at least other posters are trying to be meaningful.

TBC: Normal mode was Karazhan. Level cap dungeons were harder than today's heroic five-mans, and early Karazhan bosses were easier. This equates to a small gap.
WotLK: Normal mode was Naxxramas and/or Sartharion. Five-man heroics were harder than now, early entry bosses were also easier than now. This equates to a small gap.
Cataclysm: Normal mode was Halfus, Magmaw, Omnotron or Council of Wind. Five-man heroics were much harder than now, but the entry bosses were also a step up. This equates to a small gap.
MoP: Normal mode was Stone Guards. Five-man heroics are at their easiest, LFR is passive looting, and the Stone Guard was on par with entry level Cataclysm bosses. This equates to a big gap.

Arguing that earlier players "did it or gtfo", at a time when the entry encounters were far easier, is absolutely meaningless. Participation in normal mode raiding skydived at the start of tier 11 and has pretty much continued down the way since, even when certain other factors are held in common.

You can either see this and accept it, or leave the thread to better educated/smarter people.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt rather than simply saying you're trolling.

One more post like that, and you lead me to a sole conclusion.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 02:42 PM ----------

We are a normal 10 man raiding guild and we are sat at 5/12n. We raid for 5-6 hours a week and are slowly but surely making progress. We have people away week to week but keep the core players together as much as possible, we have up to tortos on farm and are still getting used to magera. Are we thinking its too hard? no! We killed 1-3 pre-nerf and enjoyed it.

I have two things to say here:

1) I think it's epic that you're sticking with it, progressing at your own pace, and looking to effectively train people up. The game needs more guilds like yours, and I hope you get Lei Shen before 5.4.
2) Many guilds don't have a level of structure or leadership that you bring, and are effectively stuck trying to play content they can't be coached through because there's nobody to coach them. That sucks.

[Osmeric]

2) Many guilds don't have a level of structure or leadership that you bring, and are effectively stuck trying to play content they can't be coached through because there's nobody to coach them. That sucks.

I think there's also a lack of raid leaders. The switch to 10 man made that problem worse, since (for a given raider population) is needs 2.5x as many raid leaders as 25 man.

[Pua]

I think there's also a lack of raid leaders. The switch to 10 man made that problem worse, since (for a given raider population) is needs 2.5x as many raid leaders as 25 man.

I think that's probably true - there's an inordinate amount of messing about nowadays, so I can easily imagine people saying "screw that" and not bothering. I do the raid leading in my guild, but I'm fortunate to have players who are comfortable saying they're not happy with something or suggesting better ways.

[Deleted]

I think there's also a lack of raid leaders. The switch to 10 man made that problem worse, since (for a given raider population) is needs 2.5x as many raid leaders as 25 man.

Also the reccruitment and training of new raidleaders is more problematic. Back in the days of 25 man you had officers or class leaders who got some responsiblity and coordinated easy stuff. They got used to it and then wanted to try a bigger role and got to try raid leading.
10-man well you got the raidleader and most of the time you do not need to hand out duties to others that they coordinate.

[Deleted]

some BS

I give rats ass what yout think about me, but you are in no position to threaten me or forbid me from posting. So either you try to see my point of view or ban me, I don't give a fuck, but don't ever tell me what I can and can't do here, you are in no position for that.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 02:09 PM ----------

Yes, we had one level of raids back then. We also had a tier of heroic dungeons underneath where you could actually die if you went retarding in, meaning you had to learn what those now dusty buttons in your spellbook did. We had "training mode" guilds raiding every tier right til the end of TBC; meaning you could start in Kara and progress to a guild going into Sunwell, as I did. We had content underneath the raids that actually prepared the then-modern playerbase for the demands of their roles. Even levelling up then carried the risk of actually being killed.
None of that is comparable to what we have now.
LFR is essentially mongo-proof and teaches no player how to play. Said brand new player (this means they didn't play the same length of time as us - a point people keep overlooking) gets themselves to 502 perhaps having been a decent way up the damage meter in LFR and thinks "Oh yeah man, this raiding thing is obviously easy mode lol". They get into a guild raiding normals that is full of people like them who've never known what wiping for weeks was like. What they know is that bosses live five minutes and drop loot. They go to Horridon and they die. A lot. They play a class with utility, but nobody ever told them how that utility could be, well, utilised. If they never learn this, how are they ever going to be good enough to join one of your guilds when your good player finally gives up and needs replaced?

Forgiving 10 man normal mode content, in WOTLK at least, was a way for people who maybe weren't quite 25 man level to get a few bosses down and progress their characters. They absolutely can't do this now - me personally I get properly hacked off several times a raid at the stupid things people I play with do. Things we could probably have gotten away with if normals were tuned a bit lighter. The average 10 man guild wipes to Horridon. The average 25 man guild wipes to Lei Shen. Balanced?

yes I agree. Instead of asking for nerfing raids, people should ask for harder heroics.

[Darsithis]

Yo, guys, let's calm it down in here, please

[Pua]

I give rats ass what yout think about me, but you are in no position to threaten me or forbid me from posting. So either you try to see my point of view or ban me, I don't give a fuck, but don't ever tell me what I can and can't do here, you are in no position for that.

I don't think anything about you. I don't know you; I've never seen you play.

What I'm judging is your choice to continually ignore what's being presented in a simple fashion, promote arguments based on flawed logic or elitism, misdirect the conversation in a way you want it to go, and mock those you're making no attempt to understand.

Your point of view has been seen. Multiple times. Unfortunately, you've been presented with logical discussions that have shown said point of view to be irrelevant and contradictory.

Then, you've simply reverted to type.

Staying out of the thread isn't me telling you what to do, it's me suggesting a course of action that might just protect you from yourself.

yes I agree. Instead of asking for nerfing raids, people should ask for harder heroics.

This route was tried in Cataclysm, where the greatest raiding dip has taken place (from tier 10 to tier 11).

Harder heroics isn't a great solution, in and of itself, but could be a part of the solution if done correctly. I'd argue the Cataclysm heroics were so widely reviled for more nuanced reasons than they were simply "too hard". Such as:

1) Time. Some of them weren't necessarily hard, just loooooong.
2) Easy bosses. The learning value was diminished badly.
3) Rough trash. The start of the Stonecore was horrid.
4) Crowd control. Bringing it back is great... Assuming your group has some.
5) LFD. Putting strangers together always asks for trouble.

So, what I'm saying, is that Blizzard could design 2 to 3 dungeons to go with every raiding tier, but make them less laborious and increase the difficulty of the bosses with very specific mechanics to manage. This could be one step.

[Deleted]

To be fair, none of the entry tier 11 raid bosses were particularly forgiving either Zellviren, comparatively speaking, across the three instances. The problem is that heroics are designed for LFD, where co-ordination doesn't happen. There's virtually no incentive or help to do these with your own guild (tank bag only happens for queuing alone as you well know) or people from your own realm.

The biggest change, for me, is how reliant I have become on external sources like H2P, theorycrafting, addons, boss videos etc just to execute my role for perfect dps. I'm not sure that can really be conveyed to somebody new that they need at the very least a boss mod and a voice programme to raid?

[Pua]

Yo, guys, let's calm it down in here, please

My apologies to both you, and nemro82.

No excuse.

To be fair, none of the entry tier 11 raid bosses were particularly forgiving either Zellviren, comparatively speaking, across the three instances. The problem is that heroics are designed for LFD, where co-ordination doesn't happen. There's virtually no incentive or help to do these with your own guild (tank bag only happens for queuing alone as you well know) or people from your own realm.

I agree, I was merely trying to point out that the gap, itself, was smaller between heroic five-man content and entry level raiding in Cataclysm, but this is where the biggest fall appears.

Obviously (I hope to some) "just make heroic five-mans hard lolz" isn't a solution either statistically, or morally. Morally, because LFD would cease to function as a result of your own intimation here.

The biggest change, for me, is how reliant I have become on external sources like H2P, theorycrafting, addons, boss videos etc just to execute my role for perfect dps. I'm not sure that can really be conveyed to somebody new that they need at the very least a boss mod and a voice programme to raid?

I think Blizzard have done some great things with the UI, but if you need VOIP and a working boss mod to kill a normal encounter, I'd argue off the bat that it's too hard; and that's without ever seeing it.

Spoilers.

[smokii]

I think Blizzard have done some great things with the UI, but if you need VOIP and a working boss mod to kill a normal encounter, I'd argue off the bat that it's too hard; and that's without ever seeing it.

i entirely agree

blizzard has to design boss encounters with the knowledge that addons, websites and kill videos pop up fairly early on in the patch cycle, so in order to combat this, they have to make the fights either more complex, or more reliant on a single player being fully knowledgable of the encounter.

as far as heroic modes go, i think they are definitely going in the right direction

but as far as normal modes go, i can't help but think they are overtuning the content because they think people will all go check the latest strategies online before even attempting the boss - maybe they are right, but it doesn't mean everybody does, or even wants to.

for a long time, the biggest part about raiding, was actually wiping on bosses and learning the fights as you go along. i didn't even start using addons to raid until wotlk and from then on, addons have become more and more mandatory as the fights have become more and more complex, mostly driven to complexity by youtube videos and ptr boss fights.

i shouldn't need to go watch videos on youtube to learn how a normal mode fight works. i should be able to barrel into it the first time, wing it, see what happens and work it out from there.

there used to be this concept of "learning how to beat a boss on the internet is cheating" - it was like looking up cheat codes for nintendo games when you couldn't get past a certain level. you'd do everything you could think of, then once you're so frustrated you break a controller, you check the internet for the solution - but nowadays, the solutions are handed to you on a plate and it becomes an exercise in execution over strategy.

i mean nowadays, you are practically expected to have watched a PTR boss kill on youtube before venturing into LFR, let alone normal or heroic.

i'm fine with increasing the difficulty and complexity of fights as you get deeper into an instance, but they do need start low and ramp up - its always been a problem imo.

[Deleted]

Just out of curiousity. Which normal mode encounter requires boss mod / VOIP?