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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by crysilaero View Post
    For me the main problem here is the increasing difficulty over progress.


    See, on ToT, you have the second boss, Horridon, harder than half of all the next bosses including the second to last

    Durumu, the same thing.

    Twins are a joke. They could easily been the first or second boss.


    On Tier 14, Stone Guard being the very first one was ridiculous. The boss demanded skills and team composition that you would only need after 10 bosses on tier 14.

    Amber Shaper mixed a very clunky mechanic with "a lot of shit happening". This ALWAYS goes bad. Ok for a second to last boss, bad for a half-progression boss.


    On Tier 13, killing spine of deathwing was equal to finish the content. The biggest anti-climax I've ever seen on wow, since in comparision with spine, the last encounter was a joke.
    I'll agree with this. I am really enjoying with the current fights, but the difficulty ramp up is weird.

    I disagree about horridon being hard, though, we took a few attempts on Jin'rokh our first time in, but one shot horridon. Counsel was harder, but that was a dps thing for us. Tortos was harder, till we changed our strategy up.

    Maegera was easy, Ji'kun easy, 3 attempts on that one for us. Durumu took us about 20, but still a 1 nighter. Haven't gotten farther, but we started very late, only beginning to raid a few weeks ago, and only this week with no pugs.

    The cock-blocks are early this tier.

    I will also agree about stone dogs, that was a tough fight, with some odd mechanics, and was quite difficult to overcome with blue gear.

    Once you got it down it wasn't a problem, it was mechanically hard, but not really a gear check, except in the sense that you could out heal the damage caused by messing up the mechanics.

  2. #122
    The big flaw in your analysis (and I don't give a fuck if you don't want to hear it) is that you're comparing two tiers that were relevant for 12 and 9 months respectively, and each given 30% nerfs midway through their respective lifespans, to the current un-nerfed tier and a tier that was relevant for 7 months, on top of being the first of the expansion, which means most casuals were actually trying to progress there for significantly less than 7 months, and didn't see a direct nerf until after the release of the following tier.

    Normals are certainly harder now- Blizzard explicitly stated that they tune N harder because LFR takes its place as the way to cater the raid to the lowest common denominator. I think LFR's mere existence removing the incentive to do normal modes is doing more to kill normal raiding than normal raiding being harder, though.

  3. #123
    Lot of work for a post that doesn't really show anything. Everybody I know who used to raid for 'real' now only does LFR and likes it. It fits into their schedule (and mine). People make much ado about nothing. Unless something drastic changes (I'm not saying it won't) then people need to get with the program and understand LFR is here to stay and stop constantly complaining about it.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    Lot of work for a post that doesn't really show anything. Everybody I know who used to raid for 'real' now only does LFR and likes it. It fits into their schedule (and mine). People make much ado about nothing. Unless something drastic changes (I'm not saying it won't) then people need to get with the program and understand LFR is here to stay and stop constantly complaining about it.
    So, you're basically complaining that you personally aren't interested in the (otherwise correct) point he's making?

    Okay...
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzushiiro View Post
    The big flaw in your analysis (and I don't give a fuck if you don't want to hear it) is that you're comparing two tiers that were relevant for 12 and 9 months respectively, and each given 30% nerfs midway through their respective lifespans, to the current un-nerfed tier and a tier that was relevant for 7 months, on top of being the first of the expansion, which means most casuals were actually trying to progress there for significantly less than 7 months, and didn't see a direct nerf until after the release of the following tier.
    Honestly, I'm with you on this. The first two graphs highlight that a simpler spread in difficulty keeps players moving because they can see success at some point. Clearly, Blizzard's previous attempt to keep people moving (progressive nerfs), was successful.

    Also, Ghostcrawler has now seen this post. I may update the OP because, as many have suggested, I worry about the relevance of the sections before MoP.

    It's a fair cop.

  6. #126
    Normals are definitely too hard*, yet the devs seem weirdly protective of this model. Knowing that GC is in a heroic raiding guild, I'm really afraid he and maybe others there don't have proper perspective on what the prospects are for raiding in less godly casual guilds that did well in the Naxx 10 era but since have been consigned to the raid finder.

    For reference, my highest raiding achievement was killing Mu'ru, and then some hard modes and Uld-25 clear in WotLK. From the reports I've been reading about what Normal guilds have been going through this expansion, the wipe counts on Elegon, some bosses in ToT and a few other bosses, it seems like many of these are harder than ANYTHING outside of Sunwell that existed in BC. Which seems to imply to me that the non-Mu'ru bosses of Sunwell are apparently the baseline of difficulty for Normal modes these days.

    What the hell happened to the WotLK model? Have the devs forgot what made that expansion successful? Naxx 10 or 25 was an easy raid full of bosses that players had fun farming ad infinitum. When Naxx re-release was announced, it was said to be the Molten Core of WotLK. Hey, Molten Core! Another easy raid that players were farming all the way through vanilla! Hello, devs!

    * Too hard in the sense that there is no more manageable difficulty for less than stellar guilds to attempt outside of raid finder.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-05-30 at 09:40 PM.

  7. #127
    I think there are several factors.

    Part of it is WoW's playerbase is geting older. When you're a student four hours 3x a week isn't such a big deal. When you're a 30 something with a career and a family that gets a lot harder.

    Part of it is the difficulty. A guild of mediocre to average players will not get very far now. On the flipside, I think for the heroic slice of raiders, the raids themselves are more fun.

    Part of it is the lore just isn't there. For a lot of the playerbase that went from Warcraft through the various iterations of WoW taking down the Lich King was a big hairy deal. Deathwing and the Thunder King just aren't that good of hooks. I think some players will put up with a lot of bull if they care about the story. I think these folks might be engaged by the Garrosh fight.

    Part of it is LFR. People on the edges of 10 man raiding drifted away. The new raiders having unrealistic expectations from LFR leading to frustration for all involved when they try to make the jump.

    Part of it is some realms falling below the critical mass of population needed to sustain raiding. Raid teams naturally have some churn, if you can't find quality replacements the team dies pretty quick.

    Part of it is the gating and grinds at the start of the expansion burned some hardcore and semi-hardcore players out. IMHO as much as they are a PITA the hardcore players have influence larger than their numbers. Losing these folks hurts the raiding (and the game) community more than just the decrease in body count.
    Last edited by DonRobbie; 2013-05-30 at 10:12 PM. Reason: English is hard!

  8. #128
    Do this for Classic and BC too?

  9. #129
    Deleted
    LFR killed NHC-Raiding, thats all.
    Why wipe your ass off on bosses when you can faceroll LFR and get the exact same loot! I know nhc is higher Ilvl but for a casual (= 95% of wow players) that doesnt matter.

    In Cataclysm we said getting gear was too easy... i was really easy for people who had a decent guild and were part of a bigger server. You ran 5mans bought some JP/VP Items, then you started doing real raids. Now its just collecting all gear you can get even if you dont need it to reach ilvl for lfr, then spam lfr every week.

  10. #130
    Deleted
    Casuals should adapt not demand.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    While it's an interesting read, the issue here is that you're not distinguishing between 10 and 25 man's. Back in ICC, 10 man normal was equivelant to what LFR is today - the easiest game mode, could be done with most pugs, dropped the lowest Ilvl loot, etc, etc.
    This means that it was pugged, and thus tons of guilds would have killed the encounter, and alot of them with mains from more established 25 man guilds to carry them through it (because 10 man didn't lock 25 man).
    So you taking the numbers of guilds that's killed 10 man marrowgar is severely skewered, simply because of PuG's creditting more than one guild at a time.
    That all changed with T11 and 12, which really should be included in your statistics, at the very least because you'd see that the participation amount in T11 was far bigger than T13 - 71K guilds killing the first boss, and 50K finishing the tier.
    The reason for the drop in Dragon Soul normal mode participation can be accounted to a diminishing amount of raiders (84K->71K->64K->55K), but also to the fact that the DS normal modes were tuned to be slightly harder on the gear checks than any previous normal modes were, because LFR is / was supposed to change normal mode from "what everyone does when they're bored and have a little extra time, requiring no organization and no set raid schedule". Effectively adding a third difficulty mode that shaved away the bottom percentages of players, because the normal modes became harder.
    This is a good assessment of the data/situation. I anticipate next expansion will add the ability for 10 players to enter a similarly tuned raid instance to that of LFR, that will drop the same ilvl as lfr. There were certainly raiders displaced with the difficulty increase, and these tend to be the 10m raiders who would typically carry 1-3 raiders (back in ICC difficulty days) and not replace players due to skill. These are the raid groups who haven't finished any of the MoP raids yet. I know because I used to raid with folks like this (in WotlK and halfway thru cata). I now raid with them Xrealm sometimes for past tier stuff and just recently bagged their first Elegon, Zorlok, Blademaster, and Garalon kills. Like 2-3 weeks ago.
    Last edited by shokter; 2013-05-30 at 11:03 PM.
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  12. #132
    Hmm.... couldn't you attribute the drop in people that down bosses in ToT to the fact that LFR is out, whereas in the past, these people *had* to do normal modes to get loot drops?

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    Normals are definitely too hard*

    * Too hard in the sense that there is no more manageable difficulty for less than stellar guilds to attempt outside of raid finder.

    I agree, but realize that if they just make normals easier there is another population displaced...the normal mode raiders who are happy with some challenge but can't/don't want to complete most heroics. I think they need to make a niche for the, as you say, less than stellar guilds...one that is different from 25m lfr, but that they need to find a way to do this without too greatly affecting to current 'normal' paradigm.
    Last edited by shokter; 2013-05-30 at 11:03 PM.
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  14. #134
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzushiiro View Post
    The big flaw in your analysis (and I don't give a fuck if you don't want to hear it) is that you're comparing two tiers that were relevant for 12 and 9 months respectively, and each given 30% nerfs midway through their respective lifespans, to the current un-nerfed tier and a tier that was relevant for 7 months, on top of being the first of the expansion, which means most casuals were actually trying to progress there for significantly less than 7 months, and didn't see a direct nerf until after the release of the following tier.

    Normals are certainly harder now- Blizzard explicitly stated that they tune N harder because LFR takes its place as the way to cater the raid to the lowest common denominator. I think LFR's mere existence removing the incentive to do normal modes is doing more to kill normal raiding than normal raiding being harder, though.
    Where did Blizzard explicity state this? Reference please!

    They've started that Normals are tuned for the Average raider, or in this case the average 25 man raider (as they have to balance the two). Unfortunately for the majority of (mostly 10 man) raiders, the average 25 man raider is a lot more skilled than the average 10 man raider (again something Blizzard have explicitly stated). This is because they've killed off all the casual/average 25 man Guilds, just leaving the Heroic ones, survival of the fittest.

  15. #135
    As stated previously by others, I think the comparison of ICC 10N to ToT 10N is flawed because they served different purposes. In WotLK, 10N was to 25N what LFR is to 10/25N in MoP. If you looked at LFR numbers, I am sure there are more people doing that now than ever did 10 mans in wotlk.

    However, I think your DS -> ToT analysis was excellent as it compares all 3 raids which have been released since LFR and demonstrates the difference in difficulty which existed in T14 (especially HoF) as compared to DS.
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  16. #136
    Deleted
    Interesting read, and things do look VERY bad. I miss the days where I could lay back - gather a few people from my servers community and just PuG normals, with some effort. Still, thanks to the nature of my work I cannot follow schedules and be in raiding guilds, PuG's are out of the question because of the insane difficulty.. so I run LFR instead, which is nice since I get to see content I otherwise wouldn't, but it's just me and a few other tools, excuse me, I mean people that rush through the thing in a very mind numbing way.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeb View Post
    Making normal modes easier than they are right now and i would quit instantly. I raid 1 time pr week and the level is perfectly fine. It takes a couple of hours clearing normal modes and we even got time to progress on hardmodes. Working as intended.
    Thankfully, you are in such a tiny minority that your loss will be a blip compared to the millions of players who have already quit and are quitting because they feel like content is not being designed for THEIR guilds, leaving them out of the experience of organized raiding with friends and guildmates. (LFR does nothing to help GUILDS that are left out.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shokter View Post
    I agree, but realize that if they just make normals easier there is another population displaced...the normal mode raiders who are happy with some challenge but can't/don't want to complete most heroics. I think they need to make a niche for the, as you say, less than stellar guilds...one that is different from 25m lfr, but that they need to find a way to do this without too greatly affecting to current 'normal' paradigm.
    The solution I would propose: make Normals slightly harder than LFR, make Heroics as hard as current Normals, and throw in a few Ulduar-style harde modes plus a Ra-den style unique boss to satisfy current Heroic raiders. This would give heroic raiders 3+1 very hard fights per tier - surely being such a tiny, tiny minority this ought to be enough resources dedicated to them. It could also avert Exodus style H exhaustion while giving world first racer guilds something to cut their teeth on.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-05-30 at 11:41 PM.

  18. #138
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    It's good to know some things never change. Go away for a couple of weeks and the argument rages on even though the people designing the content have already more or less made up their minds about it. I mean it was an academic argument even before Blizzard weighed in because at some point the increase in complexity would just be unsustainable. Well we've reached that point, we arguably reached it in cataclysm but they went on their merry fucking way making hard raids and excluding players and as a band aid LFR just had to be made as well. OP you've done some good work in this thread but it's a wasted effort. The solution to all of this (and the only solution that will work to any reasonable degree) is in my signature. Otherwise raiding can and will die a slow slow death, well raiding outside of lfr.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #139
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    To be honest, I think the difficulty of raids isn't really preventing kills... it's recruitment.

    Fights this expansion, as a whole, are not all that difficult. Especially on normal mode. If you try and take in every single mechanic then yes, they sound incredibly difficult on paper. But in practice they aren't that bad. Take heroic Council for example... when first doing the fight, and even reading about it, it's confusing and overwhelming. But after you get a kill in it's pretty funny how easy it is to execute.

    Ranged focus on killing Loa Spirits and ranged Twisteds.
    Ranged handle Frostbite however that raid's strat determines, or just stand there and get healed through it in some cases.
    Melee interrupt Sul and cleave.
    Melee kill their Twisted spirit.
    Everyone passes the "ball" to people who have not been debuffed once they reach ~10 stacks.
    Everyone makes sure to push the empowered boss before they reach full power.

    That isn't a whole lot of responsibility. Melee do their thing, ranged does theirs, heals just heal their hearts out. The majority of these tasks are also spaced apart so you generally aren't dealing with more than one thing at a time (although Loa spirits sometimes overlap with Frostbite going out). And Council is one of the harder fights in ToT early on.

    I think the real issue is recruitment. The game isn't dying, but the community has dramatically changed since WotLK's 12 million subscribers and hardcore people running multiple lockouts. My guild has been trying to fill our 10th position (10-man) for OVER A YEAR. Our progression has been set back by several weeks due to 10th member woes; it's tough trying to beat DPS checks when you pull in an old guildmate as a substitute and they do less damage than the tanks because they lack gear. People who play WoW nowadays just seem more casual, most are not really willing to sit down for 4 hours and raid.

    The reason we're seeing less boss kills is likely attributed to the fact that guilds are falling apart or flailing due to poor recruitment. It isn't WoW's fault, or the difficulty or encounters, it's the community in general having a low attention span. In the past year I have seen so many applicants who refuse to do basic theorycrafting on their characters. Many of these people don't even know their rotations. We had a shaman awhile ago who spammed Lightning Bolt in Ascendance. That was shocking to all of us.

  20. #140
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxTree View Post
    To be honest, I think the difficulty of raids isn't really preventing kills... it's recruitment.

    Fights this expansion, as a whole, are not all that difficult. Especially on normal mode. If you try and take in every single mechanic then yes, they sound incredibly difficult on paper. But in practice they aren't that bad. Take heroic Council for example... when first doing the fight, and even reading about it, it's confusing and overwhelming. But after you get a kill in it's pretty funny how easy it is to execute.

    Ranged focus on killing Loa Spirits and ranged Twisteds.
    Ranged handle Frostbite however that raid's strat determines, or just stand there and get healed through it in some cases.
    Melee interrupt Sul and cleave.
    Melee kill their Twisted spirit.
    Everyone passes the "ball" to people who have not been debuffed once they reach ~10 stacks.
    Everyone makes sure to push the empowered boss before they reach full power.

    That isn't a whole lot of responsibility. Melee do their thing, ranged does theirs, heals just heal their hearts out. The majority of these tasks are also spaced apart so you generally aren't dealing with more than one thing at a time (although Loa spirits sometimes overlap with Frostbite going out). And Council is one of the harder fights in ToT early on.

    I think the real issue is recruitment. The game isn't dying, but the community has dramatically changed since WotLK's 12 million subscribers and hardcore people running multiple lockouts. My guild has been trying to fill our 10th position (10-man) for OVER A YEAR. Our progression has been set back by several weeks due to 10th member woes; it's tough trying to beat DPS checks when you pull in an old guildmate as a substitute and they do less damage than the tanks because they lack gear. People who play WoW nowadays just seem more casual, most are not really willing to sit down for 4 hours and raid.

    The reason we're seeing less boss kills is likely attributed to the fact that guilds are falling apart or flailing due to poor recruitment. It isn't WoW's fault, or the difficulty or encounters, it's the community in general having a low attention span. In the past year I have seen so many applicants who refuse to do basic theorycrafting on their characters. Many of these people don't even know their rotations. We had a shaman awhile ago who spammed Lightning Bolt in Ascendance. That was shocking to all of us.
    Recruiting is bad because the players who can do this content with all it's complexity and manage their characters with their increasing complexity are limited. Ergo reduce the complexity of both and you'll have more potential raiders to recruits. The two go hand in hand. Your little list of stuff ignores all the stuff that players potentially struggle with (hell playing their class is so god damn bloated now compared to what it was in previous expansions) and the complexity fights only exacerbates this. Even the developers have admitted this. I don't understand why it's still an argument?

    Yes I know everything is easy It's the players who are bad. Well good luck to you trying to recruit. Fights are to difficult whether or not you chose to see it. This should have never been a matter for opinion or debate. Unless you want raiding to die.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-31 at 12:01 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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