1. #641
    My co-tank, a Prot Paladin has consistently had low dps since we started raiding, and now that we are starting on ToT Heroics, it is finally becoming an issue when it comes to keeping the boss after tank swaps (also, more dps is obviously better for killing things). He asked me to look into it for him to find out what he's doing wrong since he can't seem to figure it out. I read through some guides, and it looks like his gearing isn't too far off (I noticed a couple of things, but nothing that should double his dps), and when comparing logs from people who do twice his dps, it doesn't look like the ability usage is far off.

    Here is a log, which contains an Iron Qon which he solo tanked, which should be a good example of the low dps. He's rocking about 65k dps, and I've seen people with only a few iLvl points over him doing 120k+.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k00rbfjef72xly1z/

    Here is his armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rucio/advanced

    His survivability has never been an issue, he never dies unless it is through a mechanics failure that would kill anyone, and he does excellent dps on his alt, so I don't think he's a terrible player. On Heroic bosses though, when he taunts off me, with the amount of vengeance I have, I literally have to turn around for 5 seconds because my auto attacks will take aggro back from him.

    Any tips that I could pass along to him would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #642
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Halifax View Post
    My co-tank, a Prot Paladin has consistently had low dps since we started raiding, and now that we are starting on ToT Heroics, it is finally becoming an issue when it comes to keeping the boss after tank swaps (also, more dps is obviously better for killing things). He asked me to look into it for him to find out what he's doing wrong since he can't seem to figure it out. I read through some guides, and it looks like his gearing isn't too far off (I noticed a couple of things, but nothing that should double his dps), and when comparing logs from people who do twice his dps, it doesn't look like the ability usage is far off.

    Here is a log, which contains an Iron Qon which he solo tanked, which should be a good example of the low dps. He's rocking about 65k dps, and I've seen people with only a few iLvl points over him doing 120k+.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k00rbfjef72xly1z/

    Here is his armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rucio/advanced

    His survivability has never been an issue, he never dies unless it is through a mechanics failure that would kill anyone, and he does excellent dps on his alt, so I don't think he's a terrible player. On Heroic bosses though, when he taunts off me, with the amount of vengeance I have, I literally have to turn around for 5 seconds because my auto attacks will take aggro back from him.

    Any tips that I could pass along to him would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
    Not had a chance for a good look at WOL - but my guess is:
    - not hitting buttons quickly enough resulting in lost GCDs. his auto attack is #3 on iron quim - suggests he needs to stop waiting around doing nothing.
    - rotation / ability priority issues

    edit: horrid trinket btw - GID!
    id also pick up the mastery enchant on wrists tbh

    aggro problems can always be solved with a handy salvation btw - though he really shouldn't be having any at all

    id suggest to glyph focused shield instead of divine protection for single target fights. not as if we need additional physical damage reduction tbh.

    ugh he's gemmed strength a few times - don't do that :/ gem expertise.
    Last edited by mmocf6305105ff; 2013-06-04 at 06:25 PM.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Halifax View Post
    My co-tank, a Prot Paladin has consistently had low dps since we started raiding, and now that we are starting on ToT Heroics, it is finally becoming an issue when it comes to keeping the boss after tank swaps (also, more dps is obviously better for killing things). He asked me to look into it for him to find out what he's doing wrong since he can't seem to figure it out. I read through some guides, and it looks like his gearing isn't too far off (I noticed a couple of things, but nothing that should double his dps), and when comparing logs from people who do twice his dps, it doesn't look like the ability usage is far off.

    Here is a log, which contains an Iron Qon which he solo tanked, which should be a good example of the low dps. He's rocking about 65k dps, and I've seen people with only a few iLvl points over him doing 120k+.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k00rbfjef72xly1z/

    Here is his armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rucio/advanced

    His survivability has never been an issue, he never dies unless it is through a mechanics failure that would kill anyone, and he does excellent dps on his alt, so I don't think he's a terrible player. On Heroic bosses though, when he taunts off me, with the amount of vengeance I have, I literally have to turn around for 5 seconds because my auto attacks will take aggro back from him.

    Any tips that I could pass along to him would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
    He needs to hit more buttons.

    The fight was 9:33 long. Not sure what his haste is, but let's say he's got ~20% and at a 1.25s GCD. That's ~460 GCDs in the encounter. Given that the "correct" rottation is CS, J, X, CS, X, J, CS, X, X, we should see ~60% of his GCDs used on those 2 abilities, or about 250 casts. He had 200 on your kill, about 20% less than he should. This also explains his very low ShotR uptime (39.5%). His SS uptime was great, at almost 100%; maybe he's refreshing too often and missing HoPo generators? I doubt that he's using much else, as he did not ever cast Consecrate (8sec CD) in the entire 10min fight, had ~40 casts of Avengers Shield (half of which were from GC, otherwise a 10sec CD) and had only 22 casts of Holy Wrath (8sec CD) over 10 mins. These are all far below the amount of casts he SHOULD have had, and all of these abilities hit VERY hard.

    He also used AW one time in a 9min+ fight. He could have squeezed in 3 more casts of his 20% dmg cooldown, which would help his DPS. He DID have 3 HA casts, but given that it is a 2min CD, he should have had 1, maybe 2 more.

    I know you said survival isn't an issue, but he had 2 casts of DivProt, 0 of Ardent Defender or GoAK. He also had 5 clears of the debuff; I bring this up because he's clearing often, which is lowering his Vengeance. He should instead, clear less frequently and use cooldowns to get his AP up for more damage. Hand of Purity is great for this, as the main damage is from Impale, a DoT.

    So, yeah. He needs to hit more buttons first. Then he needs to use his cooldowns (offensive AND defensive) more often. Then he needs to use the encounter to his advantage to get his vengeance up, through the use of his cooldowns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  4. #644
    My WoL from our Durumu fight here (solo-tanked): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4199&e=4480

    Just had a quick question about my HoPo usage. I'm not sure if my brain is pooping out here, but here is some quick math I did:

    I cast 44 Shield of the Righteous = 132 HoPo
    I cast 2 Word of Glory = 6 HoPo

    This means I used a total of 138 HoPo.

    This is my HoPo gained:

    Crusader Strike - 91 holy power
    Judgments of the Wise - 58 holy power
    Grand Crusader - 16 holy power

    I generated a total of 165 HoPo.

    Where did 27 HoPo go? I'm running roughly ~30% haste unbuffed and I'm pretty active throughout the whole fight. Even during Disintegration beam I do my best to keep my rotation going, so I'm just curious why there's a significant difference. I feel like I must be missing something pretty obvious.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by soulredemer View Post
    Hello, i am in a slowly progressing guild do to the attendance boss and sever xfer, but our port pally dies a lot in fights is there some thing that he is doing wrong.

    WoL: worldoflogs.com/guilds/219948/

    armory: us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Endoirret/simple
    On the Ji-Kun kill, he took a 3rd Talon Rake and looks like he didn't use any cooldowns for it. He has a really low Sacred Shield uptime (60-70%), and an abysmally low Shield of the Righteous uptime (21%!). He's not using his cooldowns properly for talon rakes either. He should make sure he always has SotR up for that, along with another personal CD for the 2+ that he would take.

    To be honest, he's just not hitting buttons enough to make sure he has a high uptime on SotR. Both of his trinkets are poor choices. While I would normally say that he's gearing wrong and not going for haste to do more damage and have a higher uptime on the proper things he needs, he's just not doing the things he needs to be doing to make that more effective.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-04 at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    My WoL from our Durumu fight here (solo-tanked): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4199&e=4480

    Just had a quick question about my HoPo usage. I'm not sure if my brain is pooping out here, but here is some quick math I did:

    I cast 44 Shield of the Righteous = 132 HoPo
    I cast 2 Word of Glory = 6 HoPo

    This means I used a total of 138 HoPo.

    This is my HoPo gained:

    Crusader Strike - 91 holy power
    Judgments of the Wise - 58 holy power
    Grand Crusader - 16 holy power

    I generated a total of 165 HoPo.

    Where did 27 HoPo go? I'm running roughly ~30% haste unbuffed and I'm pretty active throughout the whole fight. Even during Disintegration beam I do my best to keep my rotation going, so I'm just curious why there's a significant difference. I feel like I must be missing something pretty obvious.
    You had 165 holy power gained through the fight, but you actually cast Shield of the Righteous 51 times (Hits+Crits+Blocks), and 2 WoG giving you a total of 159 used HoPo. You have a loss of 6 in there somewhere. You possibly also finished the fight with a few HoPo banked, so figure you probably "wasted" about 4 or so. All in all, good. It can be a real issue when you use Holy Avenger and it gets lined up with Bloodlust. Also, if you're that high on haste, you might be running into the same thing I am, where during lust I have such a low cd on CS that it's CS>X>CS>X. That too could cause you to waste a few HoPo. It's probably just the HA overlap that can happen if you spam buttons too fast.

  6. #646
    Yep, as PD pointed out, going into HA with 3+ HoPo will overcap you, I know I lose some there from time to time but meh. That, and the fact that the fight finished with you probably not at zero should account for em all. No worries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #647
    Ah, yeah, that makes sense. I was just sitting here scratching my head wondering where my HoPo went. Thanks!

    Forgot to calculate crits + block. Do'h.
    Last edited by pld; 2013-06-04 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #648
    To answer regarding battle healer, I try not to use it on horridon so I don't have as many adds get stuck on me, making it a bit easier for my cotank. Most other fights I do use it, but occasionally the healers say use another dps glyph instead. I don't know, maybe they don't want me to outheal them.

  9. #649
    A lot of the healing that Battle Mender does is going to be overheal on Horridon. It is somewhat helpful in the last phase when everyone is stacked up, but at that time the healers can more or less handle it with cooldowns and aoe heals.

  10. #650
    High Overlord Jaling's Avatar
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    I've been confused on how I should be gearing as protection and wanted to pose the question to you guys. A few weeks ago I was seeing that haste/mastery was what we were after, which is great because I'm main spec Ret (should be filling in as our OT starting next week for about a month, just fyi) and have a nice set of gear already. Given that, I figured I could literally just switch my spec and leave my gear alone, excluding the requirement to switch a trinket or something to get 15% exp. Looking at AMR today, and Theck's posts from a few weeks ago, it's looking like haste/stam/mastery, which throws off my gearing quite a bit (AMR recommends 4pc Prot) but really tosses around gems/reforging. Now, looking at Theck's most recent post about SoI modeling, it appears we're back to haste/mastery. Is that the case, and AMR simply hasn't caught up yet?

    I ask because I'm trying to figure out what gear I should be going after. For example, I got the protection T15 hands last night and frankly I don't know if I should be using those when I get the 2pc, or if my Ret set is best. The back and forth on stats has this newb confused, and I'd appreciate any direct advice on how I should gear to fill the gap for my raid over the next 4-5 weeks. Here's my Ret set: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...aling/advanced.

  11. #651
    If you're doing 10m, you can set the stamina tick box to a much lower setting, either the "Low Stamina" or "Medium Stamina" setting (probably better off on the low). You can also have it ignore the sub-par/mediocre tier items (non helm/should I believe) by ticking the check box next to the item in the item breakdown list (click an item, and you'll see where that item ranks among the other items, make sure the check box on the far right is unchecked to have it ignore that item when making a "best of" list).

    ARM is a tool to be used, but if you're doing it wrong or don't know what to do you can get the wrong information.

  12. #652
    High Overlord Jaling's Avatar
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    Thank you for that, I hadn't noticed the low stam option. Doing that and "best in bags" helps me a lot in understanding if I'm making the right choices with the gear I already have. In fact, I forgot I had a Holy shield in my bags that's actually better than the crafted I've been using until I get something better.

  13. #653
    Which enchants do you guys generally roll with? I've tried Colossus, Windsong, and now Dancing Steel.

    Colossus seemed pretty weak so I switched over to Windsong for the nice (potential) haste buff. However, after using it for all of our 12/12N progression and some heroic progression, I realized that I never really felt the benefit of Windsong. I won a heroic weapon last night so I decided to try Dancing Steel and it's really nice. I just checked our logs from H Tortos last night and I had ~65% uptime on Dancing Steel. Small sample size, but still pretty ridiculously awesome.

    What do you guys use?

  14. #654
    Dancing Steel. They are all pretty "meh", so I took Dancing Steel because more AP means more damage, bigger WoGs and bigger SS absorbs. And I guess there is also the parry "rating" but that wasn't really a deciding factor for me.

  15. #655
    Dancing Steel. ~50% uptime, extra AP/parry, and helps prop up dmg if you ever are offtanking. Plus, it just sucks less than the others.
    Colossus was good in t14 N, when damage was lower. But in t15 H, 8k absorbs are just a little....lackluster. I mean, my SS ticks are upwards of 160k/3sec in 10man.
    Windsong is meh, and not reliable enough. The Crit is weak, mastery is OK and haste is good, but I just prefer reliability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #656
    Deleted
    windsong goes for a ....song though. out of all of them that's what im now using

  17. #657
    Grunt
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    Armory Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r%c3%a5/simple
    Worldoflogs Link: currently dont have them but should update after tonights raid with logs
    Questions, concerns, expectations: i am just wondering about some small things which i hope some other paladins can assit me with i currently run a mitigation build cause the haste gear in ToT does not excist for me and i am just wondering the following; if i drop all my dodge/parry/mastery to Haste/Hit/Expertise will this still be more benefitial compared to my current build ive done everything upto Iron Qon HC in current gear and we did almost kill Iron Qon but just got unlucky in the end
    long story short, will a change to haste/hit/expertise benefit compared to my current build? last time i tried it i felt to be dropping like a fly compared to now

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by NeQulaX View Post
    Armory Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r%c3%a5/simple
    Worldoflogs Link: currently dont have them but should update after tonights raid with logs
    Questions, concerns, expectations: i am just wondering about some small things which i hope some other paladins can assit me with i currently run a mitigation build cause the haste gear in ToT does not excist for me and i am just wondering the following; if i drop all my dodge/parry/mastery to Haste/Hit/Expertise will this still be more benefitial compared to my current build ive done everything upto Iron Qon HC in current gear and we did almost kill Iron Qon but just got unlucky in the end
    long story short, will a change to haste/hit/expertise benefit compared to my current build? last time i tried it i felt to be dropping like a fly compared to now
    Bold #1 - Yes, yes it will be far far better than Dodge/Parry could ever hope to be, in terms of dmg output, dmg mitigation on the important things, and AM uptime. Also a significant boost to self-healing.

    Bold #2 - Yes, almost ANYTHING is better than the pieces you've selected. Like, really... Let's go from the top down:
    Helmet is a good piece of tier, but you have the TANK meta gem (shitty, get the DPS one) and a mastery gem. Change to haste.
    Neck - Poorly itemized, and you even gemmed it for PARRY! WTF? Go buy the 522 haste/mastery valor neck.
    Shoulders - Shit itemization. Get tier shoulders (for 2pc) or Tortos or Trash shoulders.
    Cape - Not a bad piece but WTF, you reforged OUT OF HIT AND INTO DODGE. And in other places your reforging FOR HIT. MAKES NO SENSE.
    Chest - Not a bad piece, I still use it, but your reforge and gems are terrible.
    Bracers - terrible itemization, you're using a JC Mastery gem? Try for Jinrohk bracers, or a lucky roll off of Durumu
    Gloves - Terrible piece of tier, and your reforges again are bad. You even went for the awful socket bonus. Use Primordius gloves
    Belt - Bad piece, waste of valor. Odd gems again. Use Jinrohk belt
    Legs - Bad tier, reforged out of hit (even though you're BELOW HIT CAP) Use Durumu or Horridon legs
    Boots - These were a good piece, until you got your hands on them; you reforged AND gemmed for avoidance. Also, the DPS version is better.
    The trinket and rings you bought have FAR better alternatives, no idea why you got those over the "DPS" versions. The JiKun trinket is absolute shit, but still better than the Shado-pan rep one you have.

    Underlined - If you fell over hard when using Haste/control instead of a dodge/parry build, it is 99% a player/rotation issue. Not trying to be rude, but if you cannot handle or maintain proper AM uptime and hit your buttons fast, there is no point to playing a haste build. If you're not comfortable or skilled enough to do that, you should stick with the dodge/parry stuff you have. Given that you're far below Exp hard cap, and below hit cap, I'm going to assume your ShotR time is pretty bad already. Not sure why you're using ES as a tank either, over the other 2 options.

    All in all, man, not to be rude, but you basically did every single thing wrong with your gear choices possible. If you want to go the haste/control route, we all have tons of ways to help you, but without logs, we don't know if it's even right for you. If you can't manage the rotation and keeping high ShotR/SS uptime, then stacking haste WILL make you feel more squishy than stacking Dodge/Parry. However, if you CAN manage the rotation (not that it's difficult), you'll get MUCH better returns out of the proper gearing system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #659
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by NeQulaX View Post
    Armory Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r%c3%a5/simple
    Worldoflogs Link: currently dont have them but should update after tonights raid with logs
    Questions, concerns, expectations: i am just wondering about some small things which i hope some other paladins can assit me with i currently run a mitigation build cause the haste gear in ToT does not excist for me and i am just wondering the following; if i drop all my dodge/parry/mastery to Haste/Hit/Expertise will this still be more benefitial compared to my current build ive done everything upto Iron Qon HC in current gear and we did almost kill Iron Qon but just got unlucky in the end
    long story short, will a change to haste/hit/expertise benefit compared to my current build? last time i tried it i felt to be dropping like a fly compared to now
    What strikes me the most is some of your crafting VP choices.

    You actually gone through the lengths to craft boots, and you craft the bad ones instead of the good ones
    You bought the bad VP trinket instead of the good one
    You bought the bad VP ring instead of the good one
    You even got the bad 496 VP ring, was far better choices for VP rings in T14
    You got the bad meta gem instead of the good one
    You VP upgraded the Ji-Kun trinket which is pretty terrible
    You leveled up JC and use mastery JC gems?
    Not to even start with regular gems and reforges
    Not to mention some enchants are very weird

    Basically, all VP, crafting, profession, gems, enchants, reforges etc...
    You are putting down all the effort, but you are going for the incorrect results.
    Pretty much what Nairobi said, not to be rude, but you have done pretty much everything the opposite as you should. Which is sad since you are obviously putting down a lot of effort only to gimp yourself a lot.

  20. #660
    What I'm concerned about though FF, is that he is likely not performing a quality rotation or maintaining good uptimes (based off of his admission that he "felt squishy" when gearing appropriately), which means that all the good advice in our repertoires may actually set him back if he can't literally use it.

    I'd need to see logs to fully digest it, but at first glance, yeah...it's all wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

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