Everyone must go fire...

[Polarthief]

Even if it wouldn't be buggy, it assumes perfect control on Rune of Power for those simulations.. Now sure Invocation gets close some fights, but still its quite some dps we gonna loose just from not having perfect control on our t6 talents.

Not to mention the DPS LOSS you get from fucking up an IW or having to move during an Invocate.

---------- Post added 2013-06-08 at 08:53 AM ----------

Agree with Dragon here although I don't usually xD. You can keep linking SimC or whatever as much as you want doesn't change the fact that the numbers look nothing like that in the actual game and therefore it's useless for me or anyone trying to compare real performance.

As well as mages being buggy on SimC

Ahh shit, does my name still appear as Dragon9870? Bah.

I changed it a few days ago to better reflect my Online Alias. (Not trying to hide, guys! I still have the same icon and sig )

[mrgreenthump]

Ahh shit, does my name still appear as Dragon9870? Bah.

I changed it a few days ago to better reflect my Online Alias. (Not trying to hide, guys! I still have the same icon and sig )

It doesn't^^

[spaace]

if one person tries to compare SimC to raidbots i'm just gonna lose my shit..

Those SimC results are also from patch day.. and don't include valor upgrades, which is one of the major reasons why arcane "pulls" ahead of fire.


Patchwerk like fights? Lets start counting..

Jinrok - (stand and pew pew.. OMG I GOTTA MOVE 3x? OH NOES!!!!)
Horridon - final phase (ideally you're just "burning sets of adds anyways.)
Turtle - (Boss, turtles, boss, turtles.. boss after 30%, depending on strat)
Ji-kun - some people get feathers and burn boss...


not to mention other bosses where you actually get a good 30s+ of being able to stand and nuke.


EVERY SPEC can be played how-ever-the-fuck you want it to be played. How much more do you want?

OH YA, /FLEX RAID JUST FOR YOU.

[MrWolly]

I've always been fire. Granted, my mage is PvP based...

[willemh]

if one person tries to compare SimC to raidbots i'm just gonna lose my shit..

Those SimC results are also from patch day.. and don't include valor upgrades, which is one of the major reasons why arcane "pulls" ahead of fire.


Patchwerk like fights? Lets start counting..

Jinrok - (stand and pew pew.. OMG I GOTTA MOVE 3x? OH NOES!!!!)
Horridon - final phase (ideally you're just "burning sets of adds anyways.)
Turtle - (Boss, turtles, boss, turtles.. boss after 30%, depending on strat)
Ji-kun - some people get feathers and burn boss...


not to mention other bosses where you actually get a good 30s+ of being able to stand and nuke.


EVERY SPEC can be played how-ever-the-fuck you want it to be played. How much more do you want?

OH YA, /FLEX RAID JUST FOR YOU.

I completely agree on your points about SimC being horrible, however I dont believe patchwerk bosses exist anymore in todays raiding scene. Movement/multidotting/cleaving is extremely important in todays raiding scene.None of these bosses are patchwerk bosses, most of all because 3 of them include adds. I'm not sure how you can even argue any of these bosses except Jinrok come close to a patchwerk fight. They really dont. Turtles and circles at tortos require loads of moment/multidotting/combustion cleaving, Ji'kuns platforms/downdraft/caw/feed young require loads of movement/cleaving and horridon phase 1 isnt even close to a patchwerk fight either, multidotting/cleaving are extremely beneficial here. Theres a reason shadow priests/elemental shamans are easily out-dpsing mages on horridon, while their 'patchwerk' potential is just sucky.

[Deleted]

Can't believe how emo this thread is. I'm frost. I like being frost. I pull off good to great numbers with it and I like its consistency. People telling me that I suck for playing something different are simply ignorant. But let the emo-train roll along. I might spec fire or arcane some day, but it's not very likely I will perform as good, as I have been playing frost for months now.

[Boxedwaffle]

Keejos, I too am frost. I don't have any problems with it. I find it more consistent than fire, which is something I really enjoy. I absolutely loathe subjecting myself to tremendous RNG. I think frost also has more reliable burst on tap. If you search "Boxedwaffle" on youtube, there's a video of me playing frost for Ra-den. I've played frost for the entire tier and haven't had a problem. The only problem I foresee as frost is the awful scaling of secondary stats.

[Morpheuspt]

Keejos, I too am frost. I don't have any problems with it. I find it more consistent than fire, which is something I really enjoy. I absolutely loathe subjecting myself to tremendous RNG. I think frost also has more reliable burst on tap. If you search "Boxedwaffle" on youtube, there's a video of me playing frost for Ra-den. I've played frost for the entire tier and haven't had a problem. The only problem I foresee as frost is the awful scaling of secondary stats.

The whole reason you have Frost Armor (or any armor, for that matter) is so they can tweak the stats that it affects without changing percentages, when gear starts to become too massive.
Ex. when you get to the next tier, especially heroic bosses, you'll start getting gear that will make you go easily below the GCD in most situations. Now i know that some of you think that blizzard are a bunch of blind fools who spin a roulette to decide nerfs and buffs, but they know what's going on.
What they'll do is just nerf FA to 5 or even 4, buff the SP coefficient of your spells (or at least core spells) to compensate for your lost haste, and voilá, problem fixed.

[Boxedwaffle]

What they'll do is just nerf FA to 5 or even 4, buff the SP coefficient of your spells (or at least core spells) to compensate for your lost haste, and voilá, problem fixed.

I don't think you understand the crux of our predicament. Nerfing frost armor isn't going to solve anything with the ridiculous inflation that is bound to appear on next tier's gear. Frost armor has only 7% haste, and I've gained about 25% haste since last tier. To put it into perspective, I have about 65% haste raid buffed, and I'm fine when I'm casting frostbolt and I don't have any haste increases effects up. However, once I get a meta proc and/or heroism is up, my haste goes through the roof - and this is the case for about 35% of any given fight. The fact of the matter is, I could switch frost armor to mage armor during that window and still be well below the GCD because of how obscene my haste is.

Furthermore, there're not just going to throw out a damage buff to our spells willy-nilly; that would have ridiculous consequences for the PvP community. Why they aren't two separate entities, I'm still not sure.

[gallamann]

Can Fire or Arcane come anywhere near the haste levels of Frost?

If not than isn't the advantage Frost gains from using LB or NT reason enough to stack haste?

Would it not be safe to state that Frost under high haste is going to produce double to triple the damage for LB or NT, than Fire or Arcane can ever hope to?

[bostwick kingsley]

Can Fire or Arcane come anywhere near the haste levels of Frost?

If not than isn't the advantage Frost gains from using LB or NT reason enough to stack haste?

Would it not be safe to state that Frost under high haste is going to produce double to triple the damage for LB or NT, than Fire or Arcane can ever hope to?

I would assume vs Fire the answer is yes.

Arcane is funny because of how Mastery works. More mana = more damage for all spells including NT/LB if I'm not mistaken.

[mrgreenthump]

Can Fire or Arcane come anywhere near the haste levels of Frost?

If not than isn't the advantage Frost gains from using LB or NT reason enough to stack haste?

Would it not be safe to state that Frost under high haste is going to produce double to triple the damage for LB or NT, than Fire or Arcane can ever hope to?

You kinda forget the Mastery of arcane, LB for example with BiS gear, does over 600k damage per application on average if your max its damage.

[Normie]

Well, I just saw an ilevel 523 fire mage do 160k single target in LFR (on Feng and Garajal, 200-ish on Stone Guard), and that seemed awfully, awfully good for someone without any heroic experience beyond Jinrokh. Makes me want to go ahead and level my fire mage bank alt from 85-90.

[Deleted]

Well, I just saw an ilevel 523 fire mage do 160k single target in LFR (on Feng and Garajal, 200-ish on Stone Guard), and that seemed awfully, awfully good for someone without any heroic experience beyond Jinrokh. Makes me want to go ahead and level my fire mage bank alt from 85-90.

To do such things is just ridicoulus. U get 90 and need many weeks to reach 523 ilvl. If u do the first time with fire u will have a really bad and boring time.
Not to forget lvl90 Talents. The chance is huge that u dont like them and u will get frustrated.
After that u will realize: All what he was doing is playing a perfect rota on a stand-and-nuke-lfr-boss of last tier with 10% more dmg taken. Good idea.
Never ever look at dmgmeters in lfr. U will allways see 1-3 guys at top but thats not because of the fact that they or their classes are imba or overpowered. Its just the fact 90% of the people in lfr dont know anything or are bored all the time.
And in lfr every boss is Patchwerk 2.0. Stand and nuke.

[Deleted]

Well, I just saw an ilevel 523 fire mage do 160k single target in LFR (on Feng and Garajal, 200-ish on Stone Guard), and that seemed awfully, awfully good for someone without any heroic experience beyond Jinrokh. Makes me want to go ahead and level my fire mage bank alt from 85-90.

Why would you assume he doesnt have any heroic experience ? I don't understand your point. Guy might be really good and raided a lot of heroic on another char or on previous tiers/expansions.
Hell, we have some raiders in our raid who never raided any heroics, but are a lot better than some heroic raiders I know, a lot .

Lots of fights are tank and spank too and do not reflect real dps you'd have in NM/HMs.

[Tzalix]

@Swizzle/Shang: Can I start reporting people who keep linking SimC or Noxxic? It's getting REALLY frustrating because it's fact that it's wrong, even moreso for Mages as it's known that our profile is busted atm.

1. No "Patchwerk" fight exists in T15, so that data is just stupid.
2. It's factual that the Mage profiles are buggy. By no means is Frost ever going to be THAT high.
3. Warlocks that low? That's a joke.
4. STOP BLINDLY BELIEVING SIMC PLEASE KTHX.

1. That data is never useless, doesn't matter how few Patchwerk fights there are.
2. I know. They're simulations. It's never going to be perfect, there's always one or two classes that are having issues with them.
3. Read above.
4. Nobody said anything about blindly believing SimulationCraft. I certainly do not, and I hope nobody else out there does. That is exactly what I was trying to say with my second post, remember what it is you're looking at.

@Swizzle/Shang: Can I start reporting people who keep linking SimC or Noxxic? It's getting REALLY frustrating because it's fact that it's wrong, even moreso for Mages as it's known that our profile is busted atm.

It's not "wrong". It does exactly what it's supposed to do. People blindly trusting it is wrong, I'll give you that.

[Deleted]

1. That data is never useless, doesn't matter how few Patchwerk fights there are.
2. I know. They're simulations. It's never going to be perfect, there's always one or two classes that are having issues with them.
3. Read above.
4. Nobody said anything about blindly believing SimulationCraft. I certainly do not, and I hope nobody else out there does. That is exactly what I was trying to say with my second post, remember what it is you're looking at.



It's not "wrong". It does exactly what it's supposed to do. People blindly trusting it is wrong, I'll give you that.

Doing exactly what it's told doesnt mean it can't be wrong. We've (Nathyiel iirc) recently discovered that there was an error in the simC mage critical rating formula which turned out to wrongly estimate crit ratings value and thus make SimC simulation totally wrong.

Those are just formula, if the formulas are wrong, the sims are wrong.

[Kiry]

I found it best to take the different data points/opinions presented by players and then experiment with them...which is part of the normal process anyway. You also have to take into account, your guild size and culture, and make up.

I've found that playing a 25 man vs 10 man may OR may not change your perspective on what abilities or skills work. The healers you ahve may change what talents you use as an example on certain fights.

We know that Arcane is a very good spec to play, IF the mechanics of the fight supported it. Fire is also a very good spec if you have the gear to support it! Same with Frost.

I have found that fire does better for me overall in my 10man HC guild. That said, I've experimented with my off spec in frost from time to time as we learn fights. I still do H Jin-Kun as frost, because my comfort level with that fight makes me do better in it.

So point is, if you do better and you are having fun in XYZ spec and your guild supports you with it. Go for it.

[Tzalix]

Doing exactly what it's told doesnt mean it can't be wrong. We've (Nathyiel iirc) recently discovered that there was an error in the simC mage critical rating formula which turned out to wrongly estimate crit ratings value and thus make SimC simulation totally wrong.

Those are just formula, if the formulas are wrong, the sims are wrong.

Yes, there are errors. But they're not "wrong" as simulations, is what I was trying to say.

[Pyroblayze]

So why not change the FightStyle in Simulation Craft to something other than Patchwerk? There are several options including HeavyMovement.