Poll: Do you think Bliz will actually nerf KJC?

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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    People are entitled to their opinions, if you think they are wrong, you present them with facts and arguments that counter what they are saying or disprove them. You do not go out and call them trolls, insult them or make other kinds of shitty posts. If you truely feel that someone is trolling and not just having an unpopular opinion then feel free to use the report function and report them and let moderators handle the issue.
    Just to make this clear: I usually dont call people trolls only because they have a different opinion, especially in this case where i basically agree with Jessicka: KjC is a poorly designed talent in terms of competitive choices and overall game development. But it exists for reason: In the current metagame of high mobility requiring raid encounters and a big focus on various interrupts in PvP specs like Affliction and Destruction, which are heavily relying on casting or channeling powerful non-instant filler spells, actually need it!

    All those supporters of this significant change in the middle of an expansion have lost me there if you cannot come up with something to compensate both specs so they dont end up being unplayable in most of the new content. And trust me, in the current state without KjC they won't be competitive in many situations. In my opinion KjC may be to powerful in the long run but it is definitly not an unacceptable inconvenience which has to be solved immediately. So you could expect Blizzard to redesign it towards a new expansion when they are involved in more fundamental mechanic changes anyway and have time to adjust numbers accordingly to balance their decisions. But if they however decide to do it now they are going to severly nerf two viable specs which are certainly not overpowered in the overall picture, and i cannot see them coming up with considerable buffs to offset this change at this particular moment.

    But if someone cannot invalidate these concerns and instead tries to argue with absurd and demonstrably false statements to belittle them and i call this behaviour trolling in the heat of the moment, i am sorry for that

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by jaymzkerten View Post
    Joke's on them, we don't have an ability called Kil'jaden's Cunning!

    In all seriousness I could have sworn they just said they were fine with casters casting on the move....
    They said they were fine with KJC like 2-3 weeks ago because the spells it allowed you to cast on the move were interruptable, and it had a snare component making it possible for melee to catch up to you. They apparently lied (not the first time they've done it, but always frustrating when they do), and didn't want to let anything loose before 5.4 hit the ptr. There is no way you make a core concept change like that in 2-3 weeks in the entire department.

    I've really hated watching Lore's responses to the official complaint/feedback thread too. The entire thing reeks of puppets and manipulations.
    Honestly KJC is the ideal solution to how they want to shift pvp back to casters casting spells rather than spamming instants while running around pillars. Melee can't be allowed to have spammable snares if casters are only allowed to cast while sitting still.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  3. #483
    Funny stuff.

    People have been questioning why it's okay for Hunters to do a full DPS rotation and have full mobility, with casts on the move and Ghostcrawler referred to Hunters as 'Ranged Melee', so it's okay for them.
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  4. #484
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix View Post
    Funny stuff.

    People have been questioning why it's okay for Hunters to do a full DPS rotation and have full mobility, with casts on the move and Ghostcrawler referred to Hunters as 'Ranged Melee', so it's okay for them.
    Well he's got a point there. Hunters are weird. They're ranged, like a caster, but then they need Expertise like a melee. They're an inbetween class, not entirely bound by the rules that govern either melee or Ranged. I have no beef about that.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well he's got a point there. Hunters are weird. They're ranged, like a caster, but then they need Expertise like a melee. They're an inbetween class, not entirely bound by the rules that govern either melee or Ranged. I have no beef about that.
    We can use Expertise too, I think.
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  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    I've really hated watching Lore's responses to the official complaint/feedback thread too. The entire thing reeks of puppets and manipulations.
    QFT. It's absolutely disgusting watching him being forced to spew such nonsense.
    my rank 1's from years ago don't mean dookie now lmao

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well he's got a point there. Hunters are weird. They're ranged, like a caster, but then they need Expertise like a melee. They're an inbetween class, not entirely bound by the rules that govern either melee or Ranged. I have no beef about that.
    I don't have a problem with the Hunter justification. What I DO have a problem with is this yet again reinforces the "my way or the highway" attitude towards locks.
    KJC caused an unintended shift in the warlock playerbase. instead of parlaying this happy accident into an evolution of the class, if not the game itself, they go "No. That's not what we intended. Can't has.", despite how popular it is.. how much fun people had.. just like GoSac.

  8. #488
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    In the current metagame of high mobility requiring raid encounters and a big focus on various interrupts in PvP specs like Affliction and Destruction, which are heavily relying on casting or channeling powerful non-instant filler spells, actually need it!
    The whole point of the 'metagame of high mobility', which is nothing new, is to provide a challenge for ranged DPS. So long as melee complain that they're being benched because things are easier with ranged; it's only going to get harder and harder. KJC works in direct opposition to that and will only serve to fuel the arms race.

  9. #489
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Well he's got a point there. Hunters are weird. They're ranged, like a caster, but then they need Expertise like a melee. They're an inbetween class, not entirely bound by the rules that govern either melee or Ranged. I have no beef about that.
    I had to throw together a twitter account just to disagree with this.

    Hunter vs. Caster is almost entirely a flavor gulf, not a mechanical one. The only thing that differentiates them is the need for Expertise, but that doesn't suddenly justify why they get to remain 100 percent mobile while we're playing the game incorrectly.

    Melee have been complaining about ranged mobility diminishing their niche, and that's a fair complaint. Ranged, not casters.

    Hunters have always had a lot in common with melee. They do damage with weapons.
    I mean....really? "They use bows so they're totally different from Warlocks!".

    GC claims they're trying to find a niche for hunters....with mobility being that "new niche". Having a HUGE array of possible raid buffs doesn't count?
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2013-06-15 at 02:05 AM.

  10. #490
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    I've really hated watching Lore's responses to the official complaint/feedback thread too. The entire thing reeks of puppets and manipulations.
    While it might be a bit disheartening to see someone who's usually been pretty willing to critique blizzard in the past and, considering he mains a warlock these days, should know better - especially that laughable "cast haunt on the move" thing, remember that Lore's posts are not Lore's personal opinions.

    He's not got any say in the development process, he's purely feeding information FROM blizzard TO us, and vice versa - it's not puppeting, it's just what his job is. He's not pretending those opinions are his own, it's just not his place to be voicing his own opinions with his blueposts (and probably not wise to do so through any other avenue, at least not so early on the job).

  11. #491
    I sincerely wonder at the logic of melee complaining about movement when all Raiders have to worry about movement. If anything, ranged have less to worry about, so why complain about ranged being able to move and maintain dps?

    In fact, where did this concern about movement come from? The last I heard, they were looking into ways to improve melee by giving them more cleaving or better survival abilities?

    Where on earth did this fixation on turning ranged(EXCEPT FOR HUNTERS) back into locked-in-place turrets come from?
    Last edited by Infernix; 2013-06-15 at 03:22 AM. Reason: speling
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  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    While it might be a bit disheartening to see someone who's usually been pretty willing to critique blizzard in the past and, considering he mains a warlock these days, should know better - especially that laughable "cast haunt on the move" thing, remember that Lore's posts are not Lore's personal opinions.

    He's not got any say in the development process, he's purely feeding information FROM blizzard TO us, and vice versa - it's not puppeting, it's just what his job is. He's not pretending those opinions are his own, it's just not his place to be voicing his own opinions with his blueposts (and probably not wise to do so through any other avenue, at least not so early on the job).
    Part of his job as a CM though is to relay information from the community to the developers. BECAUSE of his past is part of the reasons why it's disgusting to see what he posted. They could have had ANY other CM post it, but instead he did. You can argue it's his job, but he isn't the only one that does that job, and I know that isn't his opinion on the matter, it's an official response from the dev team on the matter. I hate the response because they had him give the dev team's response, a response which is so off from the truth of the matter that it feels like I'm watching elections all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The whole point of the 'metagame of high mobility', which is nothing new, is to provide a challenge for ranged DPS. So long as melee complain that they're being benched because things are easier with ranged; it's only going to get harder and harder. KJC works in direct opposition to that and will only serve to fuel the arms race.
    This, I suspect is really the problem, and why the concept of all casters having to be little squishy turrets is being forced back onto the warlock class. I really hate the double standards that are constantly being pushed out, because melee specs are supposed to have problems on fights where the boss does aoe damage, but instead melee are given tools to circumvent those problems or everyone is forced to deal with the issues. I really just hate double standards no matter where I see them. The real question though, are melee players actually getting benched? There were some Sunwell mages that got benched (Not nearly as many as were actually claimed on the forums, but somewhere around 10-15% of serious raiding mages that should have been raiding Sunwell were benched near the middle to the end of the progression for that tier (3.0 patch time doesn't count)) As we witnessed between TBC and WotLK, creating such drastic responses to a small number of players getting benched can cause class issues that span a number of expansions. Why must KJC and MF get gutted so severely, to a point in which they barely resemble anything of their past iterations, because a handful (at worst) of melee players were benched because "warlocks are better". Are there even enough good warlocks to even bench melee players? Are there even enough warlocks in the game's population to actually cause people to get benched? If such is the case, is it really that warlocks can cast while moving that is causing these people to get benched, or is it the utility the class brings? Are KJC and MF getting nerfed because they actually are overpowered, or are they getting nerfed because it may cause enough players to leave the class and re-open slots for the "benched" players?
    I mean when you look and think about this rationally, just like the lunar shower nerf, what they're doing doesn't actually make sense if it's to "fix a balance problem". Considering how strongly they're sticking to the change, and how much the warlock community likes these talents in general, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that this is some odd attempt to get people to drop the class for some reason. Which is odd, because that's more likely to cause people to quit the game rather than move to another class.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Haphe View Post
    Boomkins, definilty do. The only movement abilities they have are Dots or Lucky Procs on Star Surge, and redotting w/o Natures Grace isn't that great of an idea.

    On a side note to the other posts here, I'm honestly surprised at how much anger and frustration this is getting from the community. Maybe its because I've played Demo since I got Lei Shen's Trinket, but I did play Destro up until that point. People keep referencing that this change Nerfs Locks to the ground. I think thats a flat out joke. All it forces you to do is be smart about where your standing, and to limit your movement as much as humanly possible. Which is how the game used to be. It added a level of complexity into positioning, which was fun! While playing Destro I actually often took MG instead of KC, and still beat out a lot my competition in raids. And once I got Lei Shen's and switched to demo, I spend a ton of time hopping around in Demon form throwing ToC's when i need to because why not?

    A minor annoyance? most definitely, but a nerf into oblivion? that's laughable. If you can't handle something as simple as being aware of positioning and limiting movement, then maybe a lock isn't for you after all.

    *waits for the flaming*
    But Moonkins on the other hand can teleport and move out of bad stuff allot faster then warlocks, you can start doing dps far quicker then warlocks without KJC can do.

    Blizzard rarely makes bosses that involves constant movement, being able to run faster or teleport is most of the time more then sufficient (and sometimes even more beneficial).

  14. #494
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    Part of his job as a CM though is to relay information from the community to the developers. BECAUSE of his past is part of the reasons why it's disgusting to see what he posted. They could have had ANY other CM post it, but instead he did. You can argue it's his job, but he isn't the only one that does that job, and I know that isn't his opinion on the matter, it's an official response from the dev team on the matter. I hate the response because they had him give the dev team's response, a response which is so off from the truth of the matter that it feels like I'm watching elections all over again.


    This, I suspect is really the problem, and why the concept of all casters having to be little squishy turrets is being forced back onto the warlock class. I really hate the double standards that are constantly being pushed out, because melee specs are supposed to have problems on fights where the boss does aoe damage, but instead melee are given tools to circumvent those problems or everyone is forced to deal with the issues. I really just hate double standards no matter where I see them. The real question though, are melee players actually getting benched? There were some Sunwell mages that got benched (Not nearly as many as were actually claimed on the forums, but somewhere around 10-15% of serious raiding mages that should have been raiding Sunwell were benched near the middle to the end of the progression for that tier (3.0 patch time doesn't count)) As we witnessed between TBC and WotLK, creating such drastic responses to a small number of players getting benched can cause class issues that span a number of expansions. Why must KJC and MF get gutted so severely, to a point in which they barely resemble anything of their past iterations, because a handful (at worst) of melee players were benched because "warlocks are better". Are there even enough good warlocks to even bench melee players? Are there even enough warlocks in the game's population to actually cause people to get benched? If such is the case, is it really that warlocks can cast while moving that is causing these people to get benched, or is it the utility the class brings? Are KJC and MF getting nerfed because they actually are overpowered, or are they getting nerfed because it may cause enough players to leave the class and re-open slots for the "benched" players?
    I mean when you look and think about this rationally, just like the lunar shower nerf, what they're doing doesn't actually make sense if it's to "fix a balance problem". Considering how strongly they're sticking to the change, and how much the warlock community likes these talents in general, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that this is some odd attempt to get people to drop the class for some reason. Which is odd, because that's more likely to cause people to quit the game rather than move to another class.
    Melee are most definitely being benched. I'm playing a bit more casually than I'd probably like at the moment, we still bench melee in guild runs and never look for melee specifically for pugs.

    In regard to the cleaving idea GC posted about, it was both speculative and clearly wouldn't work because multi dotting is generally better and is an important niche for affliction and shadow. Stack up and cleave is also something they wanted to move away from since it became such a hallmark of WotLK and became pretty dull.

  15. #495
    Hmm, but jessicka, most fights have a tendency towards ranged nowadays, its not about the movement issues but more a designing problem if you ask me.

  16. #496
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Hmm, but jessicka, most fights have a tendency towards ranged nowadays, its not about the movement issues but more a designing problem if you ask me.
    It's the move towards ranged since Wrath that's piled more and more movement onto ranged to try to get things back into melee. It is a design issue, and it's an arms race without which KJC wouldn't feel so necessary. With it, it just piles more pressure on designers to have ranged move more and more and KJC just becomes viewed as increasingly necessary.

    Is that a problem Hunters would perpetuate? Not sure, it's one class and it doesn't bring nearly as much utility as the magic users (Mages aside, I think they are lacking in the utility department, but I don't expect much sympathy for them on this forum).

  17. #497
    I love my mages, they carry me. They got far better direct damage then warlocks, atleast in my eyes.

  18. #498
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    I love my mages, they carry me. They got far better direct damage then warlocks, atleast in my eyes.
    Oh, they do great damage, they're fun to play and they're a popular class as a result. I think they suffer a bit in 10s though, had to bench one too many times in place of a Shadow Priest in the past.

    Also Combustion <3

  19. #499
    I'm doing 25mans so maybe you're right in that regard. Regardless I love mages. I got a mage alt too

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Melee are most definitely being benched. I'm playing a bit more casually than I'd probably like at the moment, we still bench melee in guild runs and never look for melee specifically for pugs.
    Looking for 10m normal perspective
    Jin-rokh - melee don't get targetted by balls and can dps in puddle all time, more melee means ranged have to move more but overall raid dps stays same.
    Horridon - raid should be moving as group, great way to cleave and interrupts are must for second and fourth gate, could prolly kill it in all melee group
    Council - lolcleave, 2-3 ranged on Kazra to break him, 3-4 melee works.
    Tortos - Just enough ranged to kill turtles in time before next spawn, rest can be melee
    Megeara - if you use no-blue power-through tactic, green aoe will hurt more than it should. Otherwise shouldn't be problem to bring more melee.
    Ji-kun - doesn't matter what you bring
    Durumu - doesn't matter, melee don't lose dps in maze
    Primordius - one that might slightly favor ranged with spines mutation, still 3 melees should find positions. Or they can just run and kill more blobs for later instead.
    Animus - doesn't matter, in fact at least 2 melees are encouraged for anima ring
    Iron Qon - up to 4 melee, triangle at boss, 2 tanks at face, 2 on back left, 2 on back right. Not active tank can go to group soaking energy on p1, at worse one melee have to run and not dps for ~10 seconds. Getting rid of lightning debuff is pain, but after they don't suffer from boss shield.
    Twins - not a boss
    Lei Shen - enough ranged to cover bouncing balls (2+healers), rest can melee. No running from thunderstruck, whip. No need to run to aoe balls, no need to spread.

    Ofc above may vary on hc and 25 version, but for 10n, not taking melee is pure prejudice.
    Last edited by Nivrax; 2013-06-15 at 10:23 AM.

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