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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    So you like logging in for 2 hours once a week at a crap shoot for gear for bosses you don't get challenged by that only get easier with time?

    This game will die much quicker with players like you who will soon find shit else to do in game.
    "Give me my mediocre game experience or else" isn't what made WoW special.

    I honestly can't imagine why players who don't PvP or Raid (for real) are good for this game.
    We're entering a next gen era, look at all the cool shit for E3.
    So many players who's peak excitment in WoW is winning a ghost roll on LFR won't be playing for very long. I garauntee it.
    Add to that there are was also threads recently made by players who are going to be fully decked out in LFR, VP, and gear upgrades saying if the new LFR ilvl isnt high enough that they would quit without even seeing the content. We got players that are not even going to hide the "content" argument that was so strong when LFR came out and show no real interests in actually enjoying the LFR game play, its rewards or bust.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Time isn't the issue. Never has been, and never will be. If time itself is such a limiting factor to you, then you're simply playing the wrong genre of game. The answer you're looking for is that you don't feel like participating in organized raiding. And I can understand that, as I am one of those people.

    LFR is popular because its reward to effort ratio is off the charts.
    Well, Blizzard disagrees with you, and thinks WoW can be for those with limited time. Do I think those with limited time should get the same rewards as those that play 24/7? Nope, definitely not. But things like LFR allow quick play sessions that still give decent rewards. I want them to add new exclusive rewards to Flex/N/H. That will be great. But at the same time, I do not want them to take anything away from LFR. Which I don't expect them to.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulForge View Post
    Simple. MMO's don't have a true ending. Other games progress and then you beat the end boss and you are done. There has to be a reason to continue paying and playing.

    And that reason is shiney new stuff.
    MMO's have just as much of an ending as any other game. You beat the last boss, and you're done. If you choose to, you can go back and do things to get all the items / achievements you have missed. The same reasons are there.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    They make it sound like an original motivation...time will tell though. They've been pulling quite a few creative ideas out, wouldn't surprise me that they have their A game in full swing.
    I agree that Blizz is making good effort, so fingers crossed. Personally gear was never something interesting in WoW, but with all the different versions of items for every difficulty, gear given for just queuing with no effort, it's too watered down. Any effort to rectify the situation will be appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevor View Post
    all the people who take stuff WAY too serious, always want to be better than the rest and achieve something special...
    why the hell are you putting all the effort into a stupid computer game and not your real life???
    There is a generic notion that casuals are skilless players wanting easy content. I think if you look at what's popular, you can see that it's not the case. Casual states how much time you want to put in the game, it does not mean you want the game to be easy.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  5. #125
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Worgoblin View Post
    Well, Blizzard disagrees with you, and thinks WoW can be for those with limited time. Do I think those with limited time should get the same rewards as those that play 24/7? Nope, definitely not. But things like LFR allow quick play sessions that still give decent rewards. I want them to add new exclusive rewards to Flex/N/H. That will be great. But at the same time, I do not want them to take anything away from LFR. Which I don't expect them to.
    Blizzard of course wants everybody to play their game and give them the monthly fee. And also they want people to continue play the game and give them not just 1 or 2 months worth your money, but for much longer. And it's this "for much longer" that doesn't seem to work anymore for new and casual players, because data show they quit after short time.

    And you can tell that Blizz is trying to make it so that people interact more with the world and not just stay in the city and click a button to queue up for something. But that's what LFR is all about and it also gives you the whole content at a fast rate. So this might lead to the conclusion that it's this fast content consumption and total lack of community interaction that's driving new and casual players away. That's of course not fact, but it also is not impossible that this is the main reason why subs are beeing lost at this high rate.
    Last edited by mmoce29d9f12d5; 2013-06-15 at 06:20 PM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    So you like logging in for 2 hours once a week at a crap shoot for gear for bosses you don't get challenged by that only get easier with time?

    This game will die much quicker with players like you who will soon find shit else to do in game.
    "Give me my mediocre game experience or else" isn't what made WoW special.

    I honestly can't imagine why players who don't PvP or Raid (for real) are good for this game.
    We're entering a next gen era, look at all the cool shit for E3.
    So many players who's peak excitment in WoW is winning a ghost roll on LFR won't be playing for very long. I garauntee it.
    the problem is they have every avenue to increase that peak. Assuming that because they're in LFR now is only because its there, and not because they don't want to pursue a different peak is wrong. To assume that they would pursue a different peak than a boring one, given the choice, is wrong. No body has to run LFR. There were plenty of people who run LFR now who tried to be raiders in the past and failed. What did these people do? Something else in the game. Or quit.

  7. #127
    There was another recent tweet from GC about item levels in 5.4. It's clear that the iLvl of LFR (under consideration on the PTR) is going to be far below Normal raid gear, making it less likely for players to view LFR as a stepping stone into real raiding. The fight mechanics and gear are going to be much weaker than what is required to perform in real raiding.

    I don't know that they will be reducing content available to LFR players - this doesn't seem to be their design philosophy, whether or not people agree with that design philosophy is a different subject.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 08:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    LFR is for those who want the story and to get geared so they can continue to see the content.
    LFR was for players who are incapable of real raiding, for one reason or another. The gear drops are there to facilitate gear progression, on a lower level than Normal or Heroic. I don't think that's the same thing as continue seeing content, when they have already seen it. Content <> gear progression

  8. #128
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I'm not convinced that a bunch of random tweets from people who don't work for Blizzard aimed at El Ghosto mean anything at all, much less something that one can be 'pretty sure' about.

    [Moderator Voice]: There is way too much personal back and forth and off-topic derailment (subscription fluctuations as one example) going on. Please stay on topic or the thread will be closed.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    So you like logging in for 2 hours once a week at a crap shoot for gear for bosses you don't get challenged by that only get easier with time?
    I don't think players like this will stick around, no. But I think you have your players mixed up. A lot of it is how you think the player base is composed. Pre Mists, I had two groups of people who I played with. Those that raided, and those that didn't. The raiders would log in for the set raid times, otherwise they would maybe log in once or twice a week, usually just to farm stuff for the next raid. The non-raiders would play just as much, just doing other things. Now come Mists, I have two people who still raid, and a bunch who don't. Same thing goes on for both groups. Raiding isn't the only thing to do in WoW. If it is the only thing you do it WoW, Blizzard will never be able to make money off of a player base like that.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    When LFR didn't exist, subs were 12 million.

    You're welcome.
    It seems everyone here and their pet dog can explain the sub loss and pull figures out to prove it. Then why not explain it to Blizzard? I am sure they would welcome such information. And why not apply that skill to other companies? I am sure any company would welcome that sort of skill to avoid losing customers.

    And why everyone is so concern about the sub losses? Blizzard and Wow is just like any another product and company out there. Their customer numbers goes up and down. If Apple announce they sold 10% less iPhones, or if Coke Cola sold 10% more drinks, do you care?

    Unless you have a real vested interest, like owning their shares, maybe some of you do, I don't, why do you care so much about the drop in customer numbers? Did you guys cheers and hold parties when the numbers were at their peak?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Twice?
    The beginning of Cata's 5 man heroic, and when is the 2nd time?

    That PvP gear change recently is a score 1 for baddies.
    The pvp gear change is fine they just need to banned pve trinkets. I can jump into arena now and get 1700 in like full greens its at lot more fun then getting raped for 1-3 weeks before your even semi useful. They also need to make pve set bonuses and legendary meta not work.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Blizzard is making Flex mode raids for those very people, to incentivize them into choosing it over LFR. That will also mean de-incentivizing them from LFR.

    LFR should be a last resort, not a first choice - that's Blizzard's design philosophy, which I agree with. People who refuse to raid on the basis of not liking "nerds on vent" and "min/maxing" are simply being facetious. None of that will ever come up in a casual normal or flex mode guild.

    The rewards of LFR are simply far too great for the non-effort involved and Blizzard know it. If you want tier and decent rewards you're going to have to at least put some minimal effort in and run casual Flex Mode.
    The fact is that LFR is the most popular and successful major new feature in recent years in WoW (pet battles being a close second).

    It made raiding, or "raiding," available to the masses.

    Flex isn't going to make LFR dry up and go away. Organized raiding is going to continue to be a niche activity, even pug raiding.

    When I want to go "raid" in LFR I can be in an instance in 30 seconds - 20 minutes. Compare that with how long it takes to round up a group unless you happen to be in a guild full of bored raid-geared players who are on all the time and who have spare lockouts lying around. Even with Flex you have the problem of rounding up a group with an appropriate composition.

    And what about people with alts? LFR and alts were made for each other.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    So you like logging in for 2 hours once a week at a crap shoot for gear for bosses you don't get challenged by that only get easier with time?

    This game will die much quicker with players like you who will soon find shit else to do in game.
    "Give me my mediocre game experience or else" isn't what made WoW special.

    I honestly can't imagine why players who don't PvP or Raid (for real) are good for this game.
    We're entering a next gen era, look at all the cool shit for E3.
    So many players who's peak excitment in WoW is winning a ghost roll on LFR won't be playing for very long. I garauntee it.
    They have money and they spend that money on wow. Which means blizzard can pay people and this allows them to continue operating. Its a really complex idea that keeps me up at night, I mean it totally blows my mind. Casual games are the most played games look at face book and the majority of players are casuals that don't raid. Its always been that way people like to have fun with a game and some seek a challenge but not all.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Ghostcrawler has been hinting at it for quite some time, I feel like player's complaints about LFR is starting to influence decision making within blizzard, and they're gonna discourage LFR more and more

    Rudy_Eighta ‏
    Now with FlexR getting implement, @Ghostcrawler could you remove tier pieces from LFR? They should only be accessible in FlexR/N/H raids

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @Rudy_Eighta We discussed that idea, but instead there will be items only available in F/N/H mode.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @trankten No LFR and flying wouldn't be too hard. Going back to old talents, weapon skill, old quests would be very hard.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @BobGuy51509464 We offered LFR to provide raiding back to those players. It worked reasonably well. But it doesn't quite feel like raiding.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @lambey332 LFR serves a valuable purpose, but it's ideally a back up plan, not the only way you experience WoW.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @KTVindicare @lambey332 You can see the content on Youtube. Experiencing a challenge and getting loot are fun too.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @bench333 @lambey332 How about content that actually challenges you? If that's not your thing, then stick to LFR.

    James ‏@ObviousTrollz 10
    @Ghostcrawler Any chance of removing the legendary quest line from LFR to allow raiders to keep some prestige?
    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @ObviousTrollz That would be a pretty harsh bait and switch at this stage, but F/N/H will have nice rewards not available in LFR.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @Torvaldus @seph1c0 Maybe, though I suspect some of it is they feel LFR devalues their raiding accomplishments or it just offends them

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @DeadRealms The main goal of LFR is convenience. Its rewards aren't intended to compete with the much harder N and H content.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @bench333 LFR makes it very complicated to have traditional normal tier progression.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @MrMadguy There is some truth to that. To earn a new boss kill in normal might take hours, maybe days. In LFR you burn through it all fast.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @pisuri We were trying to preserve the older tier a little, but that feels weird when you can jump into LFR and see everything.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @StephenReis123 LFR is a little worse for that because you see all the bosses quickly instead of working towards the last few.
    Oh for gods sake...STOP WITH THESE THREADS! Blizzard has said time and again repeatedly they aren't removing anything from LFR nor are they going to remove LFR itself. I said it before and I will say it again mind your own god damn business and stop worrying about what others are doing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 02:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    Not this expansion because like GC said it would be a harsh decision at this point. But it's clear that they are brainstorming solutions for LFR as you can see in the second tweet. It's safe to assume that big changes are gonna happen next expansion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 01:10 PM ----------



    Your point is? This is just another proof that they're gonna add exclusive content more and more to discourage players of doing LFR. It's obvious that they won't take anything away from LFR until the end of MOP.
    They aren't removing anything from LFR period. No ifs ands or buts about it. I don't know what is so confusing about the word "NO" to you people.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Worgoblin View Post
    Well, Blizzard disagrees with you, and thinks WoW can be for those with limited time. Do I think those with limited time should get the same rewards as those that play 24/7? Nope, definitely not. But things like LFR allow quick play sessions that still give decent rewards. I want them to add new exclusive rewards to Flex/N/H. That will be great. But at the same time, I do not want them to take anything away from LFR. Which I don't expect them to.
    I think the only thing holding you back from awesome gear should be your ability to play the game. If someone has to play the game 24/7 they are bad. You can clear every hard mode raiding 4 hours a week with a decent guild honestly. Pvp is just queueing up and learning to deal with shit rather then whining.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    They say all the time they're happy with lfr.
    Also about the tier.
    They put something new, we havn't seen before in the flex/normal/HC raid from what they're saying now.

    Specifically said they didn't want to remove things from lfr.
    So no changes to that whats'o'ever.
    He's just saying the logic thing, in your quotes, that lfr has made some changes to how raiding works for people.

    Not even a remote hint that they want to remove it. Just that they want real raiders (yes lfr isn't raiding :P ) to be happy too

    edit:
    Post below quoted what i talked about.
    If it is a group of more than 5 people then yes it is in fact a raid as defined by Blizzard. Stop with the elitism.

  17. #137
    The Lightbringer chrisisvacant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    So you like logging in for 2 hours once a week at a crap shoot for gear for bosses you don't get challenged by that only get easier with time?

    This game will die much quicker with players like you who will soon find shit else to do in game.
    "Give me my mediocre game experience or else" isn't what made WoW special.

    I honestly can't imagine why players who don't PvP or Raid (for real) are good for this game.
    We're entering a next gen era, look at all the cool shit for E3.
    So many players who's peak excitment in WoW is winning a ghost roll on LFR won't be playing for very long. I garauntee it.
    Actually, I think people are not forced to do LFR. They do it if they want to do it and those who don't do it DON'T DO IT. It's a very, very, very simple concept. Much like other real world concepts actively debated right now. If you mind your own business, you solve a lot of problems. Don't like LFR? Don't fucking do it! Voila. Issue solved.

    People who unsub because LFR merely exists are NOT THREATENING to Blizzard NOR the playerbase. Let it echo in your mind from here until eternity; NOBODY CARES THAT YOU DON'T LIKE LFR. It is so simple of a concept. Once you grasp it, you will experience immediate "freedom" in your mind and heart. You will no longer be compelled to make stupid posts in stupid threads about how you "guarantee" something you have no domain over.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I can see tier pieces and legendary progression in LFR not returning in future expansions.

    They're not going to change anything in the middle of an expansion, but it's quite clear they will at the first reasonable opportunity.



    So are most of the replies, including yours.

    OP said NEXT EXPANSION. Blizzard are referring specifically to patch 5.4 when they say nothing is being removed.
    Blizzard flat out said they are NOT removing anything from LFR yesterday. This isn't rocket science folks.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-15 at 03:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    When did I say they were going to remove or limit content before the end of MOP?

    I am hopeful that LFR is gonna be reworked or have limited content NEXT expansion. It looks promising with all those tweets.


    @ Netherspark

    Exactly. Thanks.
    It doesn't matter when you think it will happen as Blizzard has already quite clearly said it isn't happening at all.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by swagster View Post
    When LFR didn't exist, subs were 12 million.

    You're welcome.
    Except that the biggest drop in players came after the introduction of Cata... long before LFR was even announced.

    Try again.

  20. #140
    Interesting thread, you can kinda tell by Ghostcrawler's responses that while he agrees LFR and Flex let people see content, there's still something not quite right about them..... will be interesting to see what happens next expansion, my guess is that Flex raids is the new go to spot for gearing up for normal, and LFR will not drop certain pieces of loot and may not have all of the bosses in it.

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