Haste as demo

[Deleted]

So is it your opinion that the 8100 haste > mastery build is better then the 14k extra shadowflame dot build?

Basically has anyone got math on this or are we all just guessing, cause simcraft says haste> mastery, but good locks here say stay at 8100, I am a bit confused?

go with whatever you prefer, there are some fights were a heavy haste build is beneficial, and there are fights where a heavy mastery build is beneficial, as i said in my post, it depends on what you like, overall i think it is more or less equal.

[ol_baid]

I'm a bit confused, too. In simcraft I lose 3k DPS by gemming/enchanting/reforging to 8094 haste cap. Full haste seems to do the highest dps for my gear currently. Maybe with breath the priority changes, I have no other reason I could imagine.

For comparison:

14212 haste - full haste (no breakpoints considered)

head=hood_of_the_crimson_wake,id=96515,upgrade=2,gems=sinister_primal_160haste_160hit_180i nt,reforge=mastery_hit
neck=megaeras_shining_eye,id=96453,upgrade=2,reforge=crit_haste
shoulders=mantle_of_the_thousandfold_hells,id=96729,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160haste_320haste _120haste,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_mastery
back=deadly_glare_cape,id=96485,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160haste_60int,enchant=lightweave_emb roidery_3,addon=goblin_glider,reforge=crit_mastery
chest=robe_of_midnight_down,id=96463,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_160haste_160hit_120int,enchan t=80all
shirt=orgrimmar_doublet,id=45672
wrists=bracers_of_fragile_bone,id=96506,upgrade=2,enchant=180int,reforge=crit_hit
hands=lightningweaver_gauntlets,id=96378,gems=160haste_160hit_60int,enchant=170haste,addon =synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=hit_haste
waist=terrorful_weave,id=95185,gems=80int_160haste_320haste_60hit,addon=nitro_boosts
legs=leggings_of_the_thousandfold_hells,id=96727,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_160haste_160hit_1 20int,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge=crit_mastery
feet=damrens_frozen_footguards,id=96528,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160haste_60haste,enchant=140m astery
finger1=roshaks_remembrance,id=96529,upgrade=2,gems=160haste_160hit_60haste,reforge=crit_h aste
finger2=signet_of_the_shadopan_assault,id=95138,reforge=crit_hit
trinket1=unerring_vision_of_lei_shen,id=94524,upgrade=2
trinket2=chayes_essence_of_brilliance,id=94531,upgrade=2,reforge=crit_haste
main_hand=dinomancers_spiritbinding_spire,id=96401,upgrade=2,gems=160haste_160hit_320haste _60int,enchant=jade_spirit

205k dps

14185 haste - Gahhda breakpoint considered

head=hood_of_the_crimson_wake,id=96515,upgrade=2,gems=sinister_primal_160haste_160hit_180i nt
neck=megaeras_shining_eye,id=96453,upgrade=2,reforge=crit_haste
shoulders=mantle_of_the_thousandfold_hells,id=96729,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160haste_320haste _120haste,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_hit
back=deadly_glare_cape,id=96485,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160haste_60int,enchant=lightweave_emb roidery_3,addon=goblin_glider,reforge=crit_mastery
chest=robe_of_midnight_down,id=96463,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_160haste_160hit_120int,enchan t=80all,reforge=mastery_hit
shirt=orgrimmar_doublet,id=45672
wrists=bracers_of_fragile_bone,id=96506,upgrade=2,enchant=180int,reforge=crit_mastery
hands=lightningweaver_gauntlets,id=96378,gems=160haste_160hit_60int,enchant=170haste,addon =synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=mastery_haste
waist=terrorful_weave,id=95185,gems=80int_160haste_320haste_60hit,addon=nitro_boosts
legs=leggings_of_the_thousandfold_hells,id=96727,upgrade=2,gems=320haste_160haste_160hit_1 20int,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge=crit_mastery
feet=damrens_frozen_footguards,id=96528,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160haste_60haste,enchant=140m astery
finger1=roshaks_remembrance,id=96529,upgrade=2,gems=160haste_160hit_60haste,reforge=crit_h aste
finger2=signet_of_the_shadopan_assault,id=95138,reforge=crit_hit
trinket1=unerring_vision_of_lei_shen,id=94524,upgrade=2
trinket2=chayes_essence_of_brilliance,id=94531,upgrade=2,reforge=crit_haste
main_hand=dinomancers_spiritbinding_spire,id=96401,upgrade=2,gems=160haste_160hit_320haste _60int,enchant=jade_spirit,reforge=hit_mastery

204,9k dps

8118 haste - 8th shadow flame and doom tick considerered

head=hood_of_the_crimson_wake,id=96515,upgrade=2,gems=sinister_primal_160mastery_160hit_18 0int,reforge=haste_hit
neck=megaeras_shining_eye,id=96453,upgrade=2,reforge=crit_mastery
shoulders=mantle_of_the_thousandfold_hells,id=96729,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160mastery_320mas tery_120haste,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_mastery
back=deadly_glare_cape,id=96485,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160mastery_60int,enchant=lightweave_e mbroidery_3,addon=goblin_glider,reforge=crit_mastery
chest=robe_of_midnight_down,id=96463,upgrade=2,gems=320mastery_160mastery_160hit_120int,en chant=80all
shirt=orgrimmar_doublet,id=45672
wrists=bracers_of_fragile_bone,id=96506,upgrade=2,enchant=180int,reforge=crit_mastery
hands=lightningweaver_gauntlets,id=96378,gems=160mastery_160hit_60int,enchant=170mastery,a ddon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
waist=terrorful_weave,id=95185,gems=80int_160mastery_320mastery_60hit,addon=nitro_boosts,r eforge=haste_hit
legs=leggings_of_the_thousandfold_hells,id=96727,upgrade=2,gems=320mastery_160mastery_160h it_120int,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge=crit_mastery
feet=damrens_frozen_footguards,id=96528,upgrade=2,gems=80int_160mastery_60haste,enchant=14 0mastery,reforge=haste_mastery
finger1=roshaks_remembrance,id=96529,upgrade=2,gems=160mastery_160hit_60haste,reforge=crit _hit
finger2=signet_of_the_shadopan_assault,id=95138,reforge=crit_mastery
trinket1=unerring_vision_of_lei_shen,id=94524,upgrade=2
trinket2=chayes_essence_of_brilliance,id=94531,upgrade=2,reforge=crit_mastery
main_hand=dinomancers_spiritbinding_spire,id=96401,upgrade=2,gems=160mastery_160hit_320mas tery_60int,enchant=jade_spirit

202,2k dps

[Hellfury]

For whatever its worth I get better real world results as 8100haste>mastery build rather than full haste and this is HC tot, I was haste for a couple weeks then switched back to mastery and I felt I was doing much better overall, theoricaly I could do better with haste build on a couple of fights but I prefer the mastery build so I could switch to aff without hassle on Jin/DA/Primor and ofc do better damage on Lei-shen, Raden I just switch to destro as my guild still needs the burst.

I might investigate the 14k breakpoint as I get my cloak next week, but I dont have much faith in it tbh.

[Deleted]

well the problem is that you'll either have to reforge or regem everytime you respec to play optimally since the 8100 haste build is quite far away from the 9778 haste break point for afflic, so you'll need to either stay at 9778 haste or reforge/regem all the time, the 14185ish haste breakpoint has the advantage of not needing to reforge or regem between each respec. the 8100ish haste breakpoint do seem to be the setup most ppl use afaik.

[lichanator]

For whatever its worth I get better real world results as 8100haste>mastery build rather than full haste and this is HC tot, I was haste for a couple weeks then switched back to mastery and I felt I was doing much better overall, theoricaly I could do better with haste build on a couple of fights but I prefer the mastery build so I could switch to aff without hassle on Jin/DA/Primor and ofc do better damage on Lei-shen, Raden I just switch to destro as my guild still needs the burst.

I might investigate the 14k breakpoint as I get my cloak next week, but I dont have much faith in it tbh.

Which fights did you find haste was better on?
I am seeing alot of top wol's with full haste set up? Has anyone done the math on if the extra shadowflame dot at 14.8k is worth it? With everyone's gear going up adds are dying way quicker and I question whether or not the more mastery route is the right way to go.

[Deleted]

For whatever its worth I get better real world results as 8100haste>mastery build rather than full haste and this is HC tot, I was haste for a couple weeks then switched back to mastery and I felt I was doing much better overall, theoricaly I could do better with haste build on a couple of fights but I prefer the mastery build so I could switch to aff without hassle on Jin/DA/Primor and ofc do better damage on Lei-shen, Raden I just switch to destro as my guild still needs the burst.

I might investigate the 14k breakpoint as I get my cloak next week, but I dont have much faith in it tbh.

I found the opposite.

I got better results using a haste setup as opposed to 8100 haste -> mastery, on almost all the HC ToT bosses.

I guess it really does boil down to personal preference :/

[Hellfury]

Which fights did you find haste was better on?
I am seeing alot of top wol's with full haste set up? Has anyone done the math on if the extra shadowflame dot at 14.8k is worth it? With everyone's gear going up adds are dying way quicker and I question whether or not the more mastery route is the right way to go.

Single target fights like Jin/Iron Qon/Bird/Twins(maybe come cleaving there) etc, haste theoricaly pulls ahead, on cleave fights and AOE, mastery should be superior like Durmuru, Leishen, Turtle adds etc, Mastery does wonders for HOG weaving.

The warlock community its devided on this haste/mastery debacle there is no right answer apparently

The best its to do live experiments, gems are cheap

[Gihelle]

I personally get better results with 8100 haste, although I like the full haste build better.

I play as Destro on Horridon/Durumu/Primordius so it fits well.

[Norp]

I tried the 8100 haste breakpoint and stacking mastery, I had very poor results with that setup. Went to a heavy haste build (14324 haste rating) and I am much happier with the results. While the new system of RPPM is very random, I guarantee you will see an increase in trinket procs and meta gem procs with a haste heavy build. More trinket procs with UVoLS means a higher uptime on 100% crit Doom and a better chance to get the 100% crit Doom on multiple targets. More procs on the meta gem is great as well, you can either build fury with 1.2 sec Soulfire casts and/or use Imp Swarm with this proc. When the meta gem procs for me, it brings Imp Swarm down from 89 secs to 66 sec, great for getting in another Imp Swarm if I wont have to sit on DS too long. Also, a majority of your dmg should come from Wild Imps and ToC. The fact that adding extra ticks to our dots is nice but corruption is a fury builder and Doom is mainly our wild imp generator. Don't get me wrong on fights like council where you have 4 targets that live for quite some time, Doom starts to become a major contributor to your dmg but that is the exception rather than the rule. More haste means faster shadowbolt casts which means faster fury build up too and if you are running with GoSup or GoServ, your pet scales directly with your haste. The more haste you have the more he hits.

This is just from my experience so your mileage may vary, but overall I am much happier with the results of a haste build.

[Biomega]

@Norp: Your reasoning seems a bit odd to me. On the one hand, you tout the benefits of Haste, on the other hand you say Wild Imps and ToC are the bulk of your damage - don't those two scale better with Mastery than with Haste? Also, the gain in PPM from having more Haste is reportedly minimal; Simcraft results can be misleading because they go over thousands of iterations. I doubt that there's many people out there with even just ONE thousand boss attempts (total), let alone kills. Variance is so huge at these low numbers that you can't realistically expect the minute increase of haste to matter much, right?

That's not to say the full-haste build isn't viable; I'm just not sure your reasoning is why. Personally, I also prefer the 8100 Haste -> Mastery approach, simply because of my Destro offspec. I use Destro on at least half the fights, so it makes sense to keep it in mind. For people pairing Demo with Affliction, I suppose it may be different; same for people that play Demo on a majority of fights. Still, I'm not sure on the WHY of it. I've seen conflicting results and reasoning, so far nothing has seemed particularly convincing...

[Norp]

at Biomega: The issue comes down to the number of wild imps you have. Haste will decrease the cd on Imp Swarm and decrease the amount of time between Demonic Calling. So while a heavy mastery build will have wild imps that hits harder (lets say 150%) I will have 2x (at least) as many imps (lets say these hit for 100%) due to being able to use my Imp Swarm more, reductions of Demonic Calling intervals and more haste procs vs. a Mastery build. A heavy haste build will also gain you 2 or 3 extra ticks of Doom if you are Double stacking the initial Doom (pandemic trick used in opener), so again more wild imps. Not only does the increase in haste reduce the CD on Imp Swarm but there is definitely a noticeable increase in RPPM procs. Going from 8100 haste to 14300 haste is a 76.5% increase in haste. You will see a difference in your RPPM procs, it's built into the RPPM formula. You wont have the RPPM procing all the time but I guarantee if you almost double your haste you will see and feel the difference. More proc's means more times to reduce your Imp Swarm CD (can go as low as 42 sec with Meta Gem proc and Berserking). Also with the increase of procs, you will have a much better time at keeping 100% crit doom up on multiple targets.

While ToC scales better with mastery, with a heavy haste build you will have more wild imps (more demonic fury generators), shorter Sbolt casts (more fury generator) and faster Soul Fire casts. This allows me to spend more time in Meta, while my ToC may not hit as hard as a mastery build I can stay in Meta form longer and cast more ToC.

This is just rehashing of what I put in my original post so I'll stop there and like I said in my original post, your mileage may vary but overall I am much happier with a haste heavy build vs a mastery stacking build.

[Biomega]

But isn't the main benefit you get from haste centered around breakpoints? I get that it's great to get those, but haste outside of them seems a bit weak compared to mastery. Yes you get more Imps, but to get in an extra IS between DS uses you still need a timely meta gem proc, don't you?

I mean, I totally get what haste does and thank you for restating that in great details; but it just seems that without extra ticks on DoTs, you are missing a whole part of the haste-equation, while mastery keeps its value throughout. In fact, it may even be harder to maintain DoTs on multiple targets if their duration is reduced.

Your PPM reasoning seems off, too. Yes you get more procs with more haste, but the increase isn't linear afaik - double the haste rating won't get you twice as many procs. It will be far less. And given the variance procs already have, it's just such a minute increase that it's hardly worth mentioning. Unless you have some data that says otherwise?

TL;DR: Simcraft shows haste and mastery very close in value for me. If you then discount part of haste's value because you are outside a breakpoint, I don't see it outperforming mastery as the stat "to stack". If you have data to show why haste is better outside of breakpoints, I'd like to see it, and the reasoning behind it.

[ol_baid]

TL;DR: Simcraft shows haste and mastery very close in value for me. If you then discount part of haste's value because you are outside a breakpoint, I don't see it outperforming mastery as the stat "to stack". If you have data to show why haste is better outside of breakpoints, I'd like to see it, and the reasoning behind it.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post21418178

I'm interested in the reason as well as you.

[Biomega]

Simcraft is known to have a bias towards haste; it assumes near-perfect reactions, static fights, and averages out PPM gains over high iterations, among other things. Still, I think that'd be only part of the story. Maybe it's the static character of the simmed fights as opposed to actual encounters? I don't know.

[Norp]

Yes you get more Imps, but to get in an extra IS between DS uses you still need a timely meta gem proc, don't you?

yes you do but on the opener it's almost guaranteed to happen and waiting usually 5-10 secs after IS comes off CD, I can usually catch the second one after the opener (if the proc isn't already up when IS comes off CD). Then throughout the fight I just try to catch them when I can or wait for DS cd to come up.

Concerning mastery, unfortunately mastery rating does not keep it's value throughout. It takes 600 mastery rating to equal 1 mastery in caster form and 200 mastery rating in meta to equal 1 mastery. While we shoot for 55-60% uptime in metamorphosis we still have roughly 40% in caster form. Haste maintains the same conversion in both forms and as an extra bonus our felguard scales with 100% of our haste as well, boosting his dmg.

Concerning haste breakpoints and DoTs, I am shooting for those breakpoints. At 14840 haste rating you get an extra tick on Doom (9 ticks) and at 14873 haste rating you get an extra tick of shadowflame (9 ticks). So now that I have reached the "sweet spot" for Imp Swarm (14165 haste rating) and DS cooldown, 1 or 2 heroic upgrades should put me in range of the the Doom extra tick and the shadowflame extra tick. The 14165 haste rating will allow you to use 1 IS and when that comes off CD you will generate 2 wild imps before Dark Soul comes off CD. This is with a full CD IS, if you get procs you can get an extra IS in before DS comes off CD. I should mention that these breakpoints are based on using the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction and I have the normal UVoLS trinket, double upgrade for the increased proc frequency.

As for worrying about reducing the duration of the dots and becoming harder to maintain on multiple targets, this is absolutely wrong.The most you could ever reduce a dots duration is by 1 tick duration. Once you build up enough haste to add the additional tick the extra tick is added in and the dot returns to it's baseline duration. On top of that, running with Glyph of Everlasting Affliction and using the double Doom trick with UVoLS procs gives you 2.25min Doom. Also if you are running with a decent dot tracker (ie Affdots) it shows when you will receive the full benefit of Pandemic. Worrying about Pandemic breakpoints isn't as vital for Doom since once you get UVoLS your Dooms become your Wild Imp generator and updating Doom with a UVoLS proc > non 100% crit buffed Doom even if the non 100% crit Doom ticks for more. As for Corruption, my base duration is 27 sec with Everlasting Affliction. On your primary target your should never have to reapply it after your initial application. On secondary targets I usually try to tab over and extend them with ToC every now and then but if it's about to expire I will just manually reapply. Maintaining a 27sec corruption on 4 targets isn't that hard really, you could even cheese it by using the double corruption trick to get 40 sec corruption. DoTs with that duration should not be a problem for anyone to maintain.

Your PPM reasoning seems off, too. Yes you get more procs with more haste, but the increase isn't linear afaik - double the haste rating won't get you twice as many procs.

I never said that doubling your haste would double your procs, I did say...

You wont have the RPPM procing all the time but I guarantee if you almost double your haste you will see and feel the difference.

You are correct though, increasing haste does not increase your rppm procs in a linear fashion but it does increase your procs.

As for the simcraft numbers (10k iterations):
Scale Factors
Int 6.42
Spellpower 5.14
Crit 2.65
Haste 4.25
Mastery 3.37

All of this is basically why I like the haste build. As I mentioned before I have tried the Mastery heavy build with 8100 haste breakpoint and had mediocre results. Once I swapped to the haste heavy build I began to see a major difference. Whether this is do to the reasoning listed here and the previous posts or just my playstyle, who knows. I was just posting what worked for me.

[Biomega]

Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding. There is no question that haste breakpoints are beneficial. But the so-called "full haste build" stacks haste even beyond breakpoints. And *that's* what I have a problem with.

As for DoTs, I never said they were particularly hard to maintain either way; but saying that more haste makes it easier is not entirely correct, when haste outside of breakpoints doesn't really due to the reduced duration (small though it is). It's not hard by any means, but it's definitely not "easier".

You say that haste boosts our Felguard damage, and it does - but you conveniently forget that mastery does, too. Also, despite the mastery discrepancy between caster/Meta form, mastery does in fact "retain its damage throughout". Mastery is not on any kind of diminishing return, as far as I know. Haste is, though that doesn't matter in practice because of how high that value would be (i.e. SF cast <1s). Still, it's incorrect to say mastery doesn't keep scaling. The reduced time spent in Meta is offset by the increased damage you deal. Arguably, you could even say that you don't want to spend an excessive amount of time in Meta, due to HoG-weaving concerns: you *have* to leave Meta for HoG, and not using it is likely a DPS loss.

Simcraft results are, again, haste-biased for the above-mentioned reasons, and are usually quite close. So while breakpoints are worth going for, I still do not see any value in a "full haste build".

[FurtyIRL]

Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding. There is no question that haste breakpoints are beneficial. But the so-called "full haste build" stacks haste even beyond breakpoints. And *that's* what I have a problem with.

As for DoTs, I never said they were particularly hard to maintain either way; but saying that more haste makes it easier is not entirely correct, when haste outside of breakpoints doesn't really due to the reduced duration (small though it is). It's not hard by any means, but it's definitely not "easier".

You say that haste boosts our Felguard damage, and it does - but you conveniently forget that mastery does, too. Also, despite the mastery discrepancy between caster/Meta form, mastery does in fact "retain its damage throughout". Mastery is not on any kind of diminishing return, as far as I know. Haste is, though that doesn't matter in practice because of how high that value would be (i.e. SF cast <1s). Still, it's incorrect to say mastery doesn't keep scaling. The reduced time spent in Meta is offset by the increased damage you deal. Arguably, you could even say that you don't want to spend an excessive amount of time in Meta, due to HoG-weaving concerns: you *have* to leave Meta for HoG, and not using it is likely a DPS loss.

Simcraft results are, again, haste-biased for the above-mentioned reasons, and are usually quite close. So while breakpoints are worth going for, I still do not see any value in a "full haste build".

Not sure how simcraft could be 'haste biased'. Mastery doesn't have any special tricks and is basically just a flat damage increase. Haste is generally a stronger stat for long sustained dps whereas mastery tends to outpace it on fights where dump burst is required.

[Biomega]

Simcraft is haste-biased because it doesn't make mistakes in reaction times, and because PPM differences with increased haste are more pronounced in large sample sizes, and less prone to variance. You might go the entire tier without a noticeable effect on PPM uptimes, even if you had more haste, simply because the sample size will be so small.

[Kael]

Simcraft is haste-biased because it doesn't make mistakes in reaction times, and because PPM differences with increased haste are more pronounced in large sample sizes, and less prone to variance. You might go the entire tier without a noticeable effect on PPM uptimes, even if you had more haste, simply because the sample size will be so small.

You won't notice it in a pull by pull basis, but much the same as it's averaged on SimC, it's averaged in reality. You don't know it when you a get a proc you wouldn't have with less haste, nor is there an indicator saying "you would've had a proc here" when you're in a mastery build.

Mastery will give you higher low-end DPS (bad procs) and higher high-end DPS (good procs). Haste will shift what we consider "bad procs" to be less common and what we consider "good procs" to be more common - not so much that bad procs don't happen, and good procs happen even if you had 0 haste - but some. I find that when DPS checks are really tight and we're pulling in a short window of time after wipes, I prefer a higher haste - missing a UVLS proc under meta + Breath + Time Warp at the start is a HUGE DPS loss (especially as sac, say for Council), and the variance from that alone is a giant kick to my potential damage for a pull. I'd rather be a couple thousand lower on most pulls than see more pulls where I'm missing 20-30k from where I normally run - but this pretty much only happens if we speed-pull a boss after wipes. I also get our bear to res me so I can try to push that "time since last proc" just a bit further.

[Werst]

From what I have seen the dps curve of a haste build is a bit more erratic/wider than the tighter/narrower curve of a 8100>mastery setup. You may or may not get more RPPM procs but mastery is 100% predictable. The haste build makes its money on more of everything which is RNG based on procs. Mastery makes its gains by just hitting harder when you want it to. In terms of the hurdles in ToT mastery has a more functional application where haste is more simc/sterile environment kinda damage.

The other factor is player RNG aka "playstyle". Some people play haste better, others might play mastery which could also depend on your connection/latency for "which is better". Ultimately the answer is there is no concrete answer.