Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Neldarie]

Lei Shen is a really fun fight, on line with Ragnaros HC (prenerf) if it doesn't slightly surpass him. Going to kill him this reset (EU) hopefully, like 16-17% with 10 tries into P3 or something.

Loled... Doesn't even touch Lich King. Rest I do agree with tho

[mels]

Can someone give me advice for heroic lei shen 25 ?My problem is that sometimes I end up being on top of the meters, or sometimes I'll be in the middle and it bothers me a lot, I think it has to do with the fact that my trinkets proc more often at times and sometimes I just have really bad RNG, does anyone have this issue or is it just me?

[anaxie]

f#$%$ RNG , was stuck at 6-7 for weeks taking 0-1 every for 3-4weeks until 7 , and BOOOOOMM last week got 4 stones reached 11 and going legendary tommorow...

This kind of rng really sucks though...





P.S : thx for the replies for leishen HC, guess i should pick HolyAvenger for some AOE burst too ? I m usually very good at clump aoe situations(tortos,megeara) so it may be effective for me to be one of the ppl that are assigned for quick bursting at balls.

No holy avenger is dogshit and the adds shoudln't be alive longer then 4 seconds or you are doing it wrong.

[Revvo]

Can someone give me advice for heroic lei shen 25 ?My problem is that sometimes I end up being on top of the meters, or sometimes I'll be in the middle and it bothers me a lot, I think it has to do with the fact that my trinkets proc more often at times and sometimes I just have really bad RNG, does anyone have this issue or is it just me?

It happens. Especially with feather procs, your dps can fluxuate quite a bit.

[anaxie]

Loled... Doesn't even touch Lich King. Rest I do agree with tho

Lich King:H> Rag:H/Yogg0>Muru>Lei Shen:H Lets hope Garrosh/Y'Shaarj make it on the list.

Granted the most difficult about HLK was...... the kneejerk huge HP buff him and his Valks got after 11/12 got steamrolled. Making it a huge steep dps check. Overall though once you could kill valks you could kill the fight soonish.

Boss overall was amazing tho

[Deleted]

No holy avenger is dogshit and the adds shoudln't be alive longer then 4 seconds or you are doing it wrong.

there are only 2 situations where HA should be considered over SW:

1) a 20 second burst window every 2 minutes or more which needs to be down in 20 seconds (spine of deathwing, for example)
2) a 20 second window every 1 minute where you NEED to burst or you wipe (and these situations are pretty deterring for other classes that can't have a CD ready every minute).

[Neldarie]

It was indeed a very good encounter but ye not a superboss (Rag25H>LK25H>C'thun)

[anaxie]

It was indeed a very good encounter but ye not a superboss (Rag25H>LK25H>C'thun)

Might lean with Rag25H>LK25H too the Valk Health pool was what primarily made LK the hardest encounter. That and keyboard turners.. Then again most Rag wipes were from was players who have no dexterity or blind as fuck about fixated / ball looping mechanics.

God I hate some people.

[Deleted]

I did some math on the 4P T16 in the tier bonuses thread.

we have 30.5 seconds worth of waiting during a 10 minute encounter. that's 3 gcds per minute. we need 4 gcds per finisher and have 60 gcds per minute (assuming everything is hasted), minus 3, so 14 finishers per minute. at a 25% proc rate, we'll have 3.5 procs per minute. so we'll waste 1/6 of our procs as it is, not accounting for situations where we use a multiple sequence of generators and finishers or where we get multiple free gcds after each other, which both increase our proc wasting.

if we assume we use 3 procs per minute with 50% mastery, we'll get 3*(100*1.5)*1.3 or 585% weapon damage per minute. that's less than 2 additional templar's verdicts, assuming 195% weapon damage after armor without mastery (322%. meanwhile, our current 4P gives us ((275*1.5*1.5)-322),214% bonus damage, at 8 procs per minute (20 CS per minute at 40% proc chance), for a total of 1714% weapon damage per minute bonus. so we're getting 1/3 of the value of our current 4P, assuming optimal use for both and not counting any temporary procs or debuffs.

so rough napkin math assuming optimal use and equal RNG gives us a 4P that's worth about 1/3rd of the current 4P. it also gets no use from extra RNG, so tripling the proc rate won't be useful. and tripling the damage would give burst concerns.

anaxies suggestion would give us 2730% weapon damage per minute, which is 1.6X as much as our current 4P. i don't have math about that, but it'd likely be around 10%. and hello scaling issues...

[anaxie]

I did some math on the 4P T16 in the tier bonuses thread.



so rough napkin math assuming optimal use and equal RNG gives us a 4P that's worth about 1/3rd of the current 4P. it also gets no use from extra RNG, so tripling the proc rate won't be useful. and tripling the damage would give burst concerns.

anaxies suggestion would give us 2730% weapon damage per minute, which is 1.6X as much as our current 4P. i don't have math about that, but it'd likely be around 10%. and hello scaling issues...

No what we have here is a neutral DPS 4 set because those 30 seconds are unreliable. or may not even happen. I can hardly find a GCD for ES let alone to add another clunky ability to the rotation. The ability itself is fucking garbage. btw DID you even count chained holy RNG TVS? Did you even count hugely buffed tvs or damage phase buffed ones that wings will be used under? It all fits into the same GCD via proc. The new 4 set just doesn't work currently. The damage is TOO low to warrent hitting the button. It's the new T6 4 set. Worthless

I said nothing about tripleing it's damage I said to double it. I said nothing about tripleing it's proc rate I said to double it. What did you even read.

Also stop trying to math out weapon scaling and RNG like it's matter of fact. Here is the math on T15 4 set : A fucking lot and random. The end. Free damage big numbers.

New 4 set has to match this, no need to get technical on it.

---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 02:22 PM ----------

4 set~ When you use a HP finisher you have 40% chance to proc a free Divine storm and causes all targets hit to burn in righteous fire for 150% of the damage delt over 4 seconds.

'
This is what I said

---------- Post added 2013-06-19 at 02:26 PM ----------

Bragnote: 10/12 stones and Ra-den tonight I have 7 bosses to get ONE random stone from then i can end next week at 548 ilvl unless i get boots/random TF. ULTRA FAP
Oh those numbers will give me 40% base unbuffed haste/mastery 12% crit 7.5% exp 7.6% hit USING 3haste/hit gems, 55.5k wpn damage

[Deleted]

Here is the math on T15 4 set : A fucking lot and random. The end. Free damage big numbers.

I don't really see the T15 stuff that way. Free damage is just buffs to abilities or random damage as we get with the legendary meta gem. Witht he 2-set I'm holding off using ES until I can ensure that the 2-set bonus will at least be active for the final ticks. Then in theory I should also ensure the 2-set is again active before I fire off a TV when the 4-set procs; then I remember that I'm not altogether sure Blizzard have the 2-set working with the 4-set yet and wonder if I should even bother.

By the way, I like how your sig makes me sad because you're a cow then I check your profile and see you're a belf and am happy. Then I remember that the belf only makes me happy because at first I thought you were a cow and it is just the best of a bad choice for horde and am sad again.

[anaxie]

I don't really see the T15 stuff that way. Free damage is just buffs to abilities or random damage as we get with the legendary meta gem. Witht he 2-set I'm holding off using ES until I can ensure that the 2-set bonus will at least be active for the final ticks. Then in theory I should also ensure the 2-set is again active before I fire off a TV when the 4-set procs; then I remember that I'm not altogether sure Blizzard have the 2-set working with the 4-set yet and wonder if I should even bother.

By the way, I like how your sig makes me sad because you're a cow then I check your profile and see you're a belf and am happy. Then I remember that the belf only makes me happy because at first I thought you were a cow and it is just the best of a bad choice for horde and am sad again.

You are looking way to hard into the priority system. Just ES with trinkets up and spam that CS/TV

Tauren are just way to fucking big and have too many downsides. The 8k hp and clunky stun isn't worth the LOL im huge factor. Being big is not a good thing in this game.

[Anafielle]

So you guys doing the napkin math might be interested in this. FYI Theck is now maintaining both the prot & ret parts of simcraft. He implemented the bonuses and the new release 530-4 yesterday has them in. I played with simcraft a lot with the PTR flagged on and the bonuses to see how they are working.

Disclaimer: Blizzard has a lot of changes yet to make and this is just their first draft of everything in the PTR, I certainly get it and these numbers aren't meant for percentage QQ (although I'm sure they'll read like that and everyone will take them like that anyways) ... I could be just way more optimistic than the normal mmo c poster but I am fairly certain the damage output of this set bonus will come up.

Anyways. Simmed with basically "use proc if available" at the very bottom of the priority list.

• without T16: 199186.8
• with T16: 208024.3
• Period of time between Divine Storms: 23.5 seconds.

So yes Anaxie, you can't find a GCD for the bonus and neither can simcraft most of the time. Sounds like fun, we will let the proc expire most of the time I imagine and use it like twice a minute (yay?)

Now the person I had the nice discussion with in this thread earlier was under the impression that DS is so good we can use it earlier. Well experienced rets will know this isn't the case but hell I simmed it anyways, testing the proc a little higher and higher in our priority.

The problem with the proc isn't its damage. I like Divine Storm a lot. DS itself is hitting in my simulation for ~80k -- that's over 70% of a TV, a hell of a lot stronger than your average CS, almost even with Judge and a bit less strong than exo. The damage isn't the issue; it's the fact that it is completely outside our holy power generation. And so as the simulations hold, using it anytime except "when you have nothing else to do" is totally wrong:

• bottom: 208024
• above J: 207456
• above J & CS: 206712
• above J & CS & Exo: 206533
• above everything: 205749

Using it when the bonus lights up is a trap. Again, this is no surprise to experienced rets but all sorts read this thread so it's worth noting.

My problem with this bonus is less the damage and more the fact that it's a complete trap. I like a proc bonus, but it presents a skill problem to most rets. For T16 LFR Hero who isn't 548 geared anaxie or 547 geared ana or whatever the rest of you are in this thread, his button lights up, and he is already dealing with the proc by hitting a new button in his rotation. I am really not a fan of the part where he is doing it wrong by actually hitting the button that lights up, most of the time. I'm fine with more skill involved in using a proc right but the solution "don't use that proc" is not a fun proc.

I said it before in the thread, I like the divine storm bonus, but there are only 2 ways to make Divine Storm work (or anything at all work) in our rotation:

a) costs holy power or
b) generates holy power.

Anaxie's big font suggestion above is basically option A, supercharge your next DS (i.e. the proc costs holy power). I also like the proc as it is now but generating holy power; that is simple but would also place the proc into a non shitty place in our rotation. Less likely though because "DS generates HP here but costs it here" is weird gameplay.

I'm mostly concerned about this bonus because, if they think it is low and buff the proc somehow, they can't just throw more damage at it (i.e. "your free DS is double power") or buff the proc rate. They could bring the damage output up, but neither of those things will fix the basic priority problem. The proc has got to interact with Holy Power somehow.

[anaxie]

Anaxie's big font suggestion above is basically option A, supercharge your next DS (i.e. the proc costs holy power). I also like the proc as it is now but generating holy power; that is simple but would also place the proc into a non shitty place in our rotation. Less likely though because "DS generates HP here but costs it here" is weird gameplay.

I'm mostly concerned about this bonus because, if they think it is low and buff the proc somehow, they can't just throw more damage at it (i.e. "your free DS is double power") or buff the proc rate. They could bring the damage output up, but neither of those things will fix the basic priority problem. The proc has got to interact with Holy Power somehow.

The proc cannot cost holy power and be a dps upgrade over the current tier. Period may aswell use full 560whatever TF offset with that mentality.

And no it doesn't have to proc holy power if it becomes a viable proc FREE finisher. a "slightly stronger CS" is not compelling

Getting the bonus I suggested is the groundwork towards giving us some viable cleave aoe and with the proc rate you should have DS every 12ish seconds. It specifically lays the groundwork for potentially having DS redesigned <again> next expansion.

Also

~80k -- that's over 70% of a TV

My procs which are pretty frequent AND FREE on the same GCD make it hit for 450-700k crits varied on procs sometimes peaking mid 800's. Let's not even talk ab out the mastery damage.

Currently the proc increases TV's damage by 120% OVERALL you say DS is 70% a TV. That's nearly half AND costs an attack GCD AND it's ever 3-4 seconds at 25% proc chance VS 40% chance 1-2times PER 3-4 seoncds.

From my dark animus last week which is a fairly average proc rate i got 26 HOLY templars verdicts. My holy NON crit TVs beat the AVERAGE damage of my HoW crits. Lets not even get into mastery scaling here.

Keep in mind the final weapon if it's not a legendary in T16 is going to have be 570 ilvl which should be pushing very close to 40k Top end weapon damage. Not to mention further mastery / haste scaling if we are lucky and the tier is filled with these stats. IF we do see epic gems this tier it FURTHER boosts the power of the current 4 set yet again. The holy TV is just too fucking powerful and too frequent.

DS in it's current form is shit. My suggestion is the ONLY viable solution to the set without going overboard and maintaining DS as the actual set bonus.

[Deleted]

we should start considering though that maybe the 3min guardian and 1minute inquisition are considered by devs the compensate from losing a good single target bonus to a mediocre one and just accept the fact that we ll have to deal with an aoe strong 4set. Its too early on ptr and hate losing t15 4set but maybe thats the case...

Also i think we should also see the encounters , maybe the hardest encounters involve aoe and make our 4set shine...

[anaxie]

we should start considering though that maybe the 3min guardian and 1minute inquisition are considered by devs the compensate from losing a good single target bonus to a mediocre one and just accept the fact that we ll have to deal with an aoe strong 4set. Its too early on ptr and hate losing t15 4set but maybe thats the case...

Also i think we should also see the encounters , maybe the hardest encounters involve aoe and make our 4set shine...

The only important thing about guardian is. DID they touch his melee damage. The 4 set I highly doubt is related to those changes the set is clunky, uninspired, and in most cases a DPS loss. That needs changed you shouldn't have people AVOIDING their new tier. Right now I'm giddy as fuck when holy TV procs. Next tier I'll be doing a giant /sigh unless they how it affects DS significantly.

There is no way to sugar coat it and no reason to polish a turd. It's shit, don't try to make it sound good because it isn't

[Reghame]

anafielle you DO know how HP works right? we generate the stuff so we can USE FINISHERS like TV AND DS, if we can skip that process and spam finishes because of how the 4 set works with DP, why is it an issue sitting at 5 HP? your spamming your best abilities at that point it doesn't matter if the weak abilities are not getting used. as you said above, DS hits MUCH harder that CS and judge and is close to exo in damage, it gets beat by hammer usually outright, so whats the problem? its like saying rogues don't use shiv in their main rotation because they are using shadow dance, who gives a single shit? they are doing better damage using ambush and evis, it don't matter if their spamming or not they are doing better damage because of it.

im actually liking this set bonus even more than before now that i looked up some of these incoming fights. i like preforming niche rolls rather than being the best at everything, it leaves less room FOR GETTING NERFED SO WE DO NO DAMAGE! its not bad, its a niche set, maybe they want us to be a niche dps spec who knows. but stop complaining about it like its the end of the world, its not.

BTW, if you call yourself a veteran ret over me again i'm going to laugh at you, I've been playing the game prolly twice as long as ret than you prolly even knew the game existed.
TLDR: you cant have everything, and complaining about it is worse. and don't talk down to people if you don't know them, cause they will possibly laugh right at you and your high horse.

EDIT: what i could see them doing with all of this, is either improve the proc chance, empower the DS, add a proc to said DS, or change it to effect something else. the order of the following is in order from left to right in possible change, but i don't think anyone will be happy until we are just magically better then most people at everything. IMO the inq and guardian changes might just be enough to put us where we need to be, tier bonuses wont make or break that by too much unless they bring back something ridiculous like the old ele shaman firelands 4 set, but i doubt they didn't learn from that mistake :P

[Anafielle]

Right Anaxie, I was ignoring the T15 set bonus when I commented, I was talking about the basic spells themselves. I don't want to compare a DS to a proc-empowered TV, I was talking about spell 1 vs spell 2.

Of course if you compare the current set bonus empowered TV to just about anything, then anything else is going to look bad. Holy damage TV is pretty much insanely strong.

I am just concerned about taking T15 as the baseline for what I want out of a T16 bonus. I think there is room for a good bonus that isn't "holy damage TV" type strength and I always thought our T15 was actually too strong; I wish sometimes we had not had it and instead had been tuned without the set bonus on. But that's just how I look at it.

I also am concerned about suggesting exact bonuses in PTR forums, i would rather think about the type of bonus I would like. When I said "costs holy power" then what I meant was something roughly similar to the T15 bonus which was drafted by blues temporarily and then discarded in favor of our OP holy damage set bonus which we have now -- it did something like charge up your next DS so that it did extra damage. You might not be satisfied with that but I thought it sounded interesting.

I'm not going to argue with you that T15 is strong; you are right and that is definitely not something I said was not true in my post (or didn't mean to). T15 is ridiculous. Breaking it is going to look pretty stupid depending on what T16 ends up looking like, and beating it with T16 is going to take a hell of a bonus.

ps: Reghame the comment wasn't personal and I"m sorry you took it like that. I will not explain holy power generation to you or how generating resource is generally more important than spending them; clearly you have been playing ret longer than me so you understand it better than me You can play however you would like to play and whatever it is that you find most enjoyable. I am sorry I poked fun at you.

[Zoma]

Updated 4 set on front page.

Holy Power consumers have a 25% chance to make your next Divine Storm free and deal 50% more damage.

[Reith]

Updated 4 set on front page.

Holy Power consumers have a 25% chance to make your next Divine Storm free and deal 50% more damage.

Knew something like that was coming.