Cairne, the sad and betrayed Tauren

[Raylinn]

Do remember Baine's dialogue may be a representation of what HE thinks, not what actually happened.

[Thimagryn]

That's the problem. The Shattering explains what he THINKS. He believes Garrosh was a pawn in Magatha's treacherous plan.

There is no reason for him to suddenly believe he betrayed Cairne. In the Shattering, Baine concluded that Garrosh was free of guilt, with Magatha been exposed as the true culprit. It wasn't anyone else making up conclusions for him, HE made the decision not to act on the Grim Totems and to maintain the alliance with the Horde, and see Garrosh as the new Warchief. He could have taken the Tauren with him and walked away at any point.

[Velshin]

That's the problem. The Shattering explains what he THINKS. He believes Garrosh was a pawn in Magatha's treacherous plan.

What reason is there for him to now suddenly believe he betrayed Cairne when in the Shattering, Baine concluded that Garrosh was free of guilt, with Magatha been exposed as the true culprit?

Yes but as I said people can change over the course of time. It's not like the shattering storyline happened yesterday then the day after Baine changed his mind nope of course not...it's been years and so many thing has changed including the mentality of each major character in the lore.

For example durning wc3 or vanilla or WoW who would have thought Jaina will become a vengeful blood thirsty ? because she is been known as a peace goody person that doesn't mean she is immune to changes. Everyone can change including the strongest characters that's what make them mortal and that's what make it more realistic.

[Thimagryn]

The point isn't Baine changing his opinion. The point is he's saying things that he acknowledged previously never happened. Without explanation.

Cairne was not betrayed by Garrosh. It never happened, Baine never believed it, and there is no reason for him suddenly saying 'He betrayed my father'.

Baine changing his state of mind doesn't make Cairne being betrayed by Garrosh any more true.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes but as I said people can change over the course of time. It's not like the shattering storyline happened yesterday then the day after Baine changed his mind nope of course not...it's been years and so many thing has changed including the mentality of each major character in the lore.

For example durning wc3 or vanilla or WoW who would have thought Jaina will become a vengeful blood thirsty ? because she is been known as a peace goody person that doesn't mean she is immune to changes. Everyone can change including the strongest characters that's what make them mortal and that's what make it more realistic.

While it's true that Jaina began having a distorted view of history and blaming Thrall for everything, Baine didn't go crazy like Jaina did.

[Velshin]

The point isn't Baine changing his opinion. The point is he's saying things that he acknowledged previously never happened. Without explanation.

Cairne was not betrayed by Garrosh. It never happened, Baine never believed it, and there is no reason for him suddenly saying 'He betrayed my father'.

and how did you know that he didn't believe it? because it was a fact that Garrosh took zero action against Magatha and no he didn't support Baine durning the war in Thunder Bluff it was Baine alone with some help from goblins in Ratchet and some mercenaries against Magatha. After that Baine tried to open a new clean page with Garrosh (that doesn't maen he doesn't hold grudge against him anymore he is just being the bigger man I hope you got what I mean) and pledged his loyalty because BACK THEN keyword here is back then.....he thought Garrosh was a decent leader since he was picked up by Thrall so he kinda trusted him and had some faith on him. However, slowly over the course of time he begin to see Garrosh true color and regret that he placed his loyalty toward such tyrant bastard Warchief.

I hope I made my point clear.

[Thimagryn]

Just one question before I continue discussing with you on this topic, Velshin

Have you read the Shattering?

[Velshin]

While it's true that Jaina began having a distorted view of history and blaming Thrall for everything, Baine didn't go crazy like Jaina did.

Indeed I agree but you may never know soon or later maybe Baine over the course of time will become more blood thirsty and cold just to survive. Because Jaina didn't suddenly transformed to the current blood thirsty it all ramp up slowly but she kept it inside of her she kept it inside because she believed in peace and all of that stuff but then the Theramore incident happened she went BOOOM kinda like the bottle of wine couldn't hold it anymore and just exploded. Maybe this is what happening now to Baine but in less extend than Jaina of course.

---------- Post added 2013-06-22 at 03:37 AM ----------

Just one question before I continue discussing with you on this topic, Velshin

Have you read the Shattering?

Yes I read the shattering thanks for asking but as I said it's not like the shattering happened yesterday and then one day later Baine has a change of heart and changed his mind you got what I mean? it's been years since the Cataclysm and the shattering was even before the cataclysm even started before Deathwing return.

[Amnasty]

It was a duel to the death. Cairne knew, what he was getting into.

My problem with this, is this:

Cairne was wise, always has been. Id argue even wiser then Thrall.

I personally believe Cairne agreed to a duel to the death, but would not have killed Garrosh. I think he woulda stopped his blow before it landed. Have Garrosh admit defeat and teach him the virtue of true power.

Hes always been a teacher, I cant see Cairne killing Garrosh, not in a duel like that.

Garrosh could have seen him there, with nothing but a cut... wondering why is he just sitting there... he killed a paralyzed OLD Tauren, who wasnt able to get to his feet. Thus the betrayal.

[Dreknar20]

and how did you know that he didn't believe it? because it was a fact that Garrosh took zero action against Magatha and no he didn't support Baine durning the war in Thunder Bluff

"Although Baine was secure in his decision to not seek revenge against Garrosh Hellscream, he was not about to ask that rash orc for aid. That mean that he was on his own."

[Xene]

your gonna act cool if your dad was killed by your boss? you wouldnt hold on to just a teeny weeny bit of disdain?

could just be a run of his mouth. pumping himself up for the coming fight, inspiring his fellow Tauren to rise up.

[Dreknar20]

Garrosh could have seen him there, with nothing but a cut... wondering why is he just sitting there... he killed a paralyzed OLD Tauren, who wasnt able to get to his feet. Thus the betrayal.

A duel to the death is a duel to the death.
Either you kill them, or they kill you. There is no time-out so you can get a drink of soda or to tie your shoes

[Velshin]

"Although Baine was secure in his decision to not seek revenge against Garrosh Hellscream, he was not about to ask that rash orc for aid. That mean that he was on his own."

That's true back then but as I said people can change time + drastic events + desperate grim moments = can make people change their mentality and their point of view toward things either to the better or to the worse that's not relevant. The point is people are mortal and can change their way the same way Jaina, Fandral, Illidan, Thrall, and so many more.

[Amnasty]

A duel to the death is a duel to the death.
Either you kill them, or they kill you. There is no time-out so you can get a drink of soda or to tie your shoes

Yes there is ESPECIALLY when your part of a race, and a preacher of a GLORIOUS HONORABLE DEATH.

There was no honor is killing an incompacitated opponent...

Think about it in game... your dueling someone in Outlands, and a member from the opposite fraction jumps on the player losing to score an easy kill....do you continue the attack for the sake of winning the duel, or do you the enemy, give a quick recoup and then finish the duel.

If you say you fight your dueling opponent while he fends off the other enemy at the same time, for the sake of a win, its unhonorable, and your a scumbag.

[Thimagryn]

Yes I read the shattering thanks for asking but as I said it's not like the shattering happened yesterday and then one day later Baine has a change of heart and changed his mind you got what I mean? it's been years since the Cataclysm and the shattering was even before the cataclysm even started before Deathwing return.

Lets get things clear - Even at the end of the Shattering, Baine is not on the best of terms with Garrosh. He says he won't challenge him to the Mak'Gora now, but it doesn't mean he lets him off the hook forever. We know there is tension between the two. What we also know is Baine acknowledges that Garrosh wasn't behind the murder of his father. It was the focus of his entire story!

Time doesn't change facts. He doesn't sound like he's saying that out of spite, he sounds like the writers made a boo-boo and forgot that Cairne's death was Magatha's fault.

[Aquamonkey]

My problem with this, is this:

Cairne was wise, always has been. Id argue even wiser then Thrall.

I personally believe Cairne agreed to a duel to the death, but would not have killed Garrosh. I think he woulda stopped his blow before it landed. Have Garrosh admit defeat and teach him the virtue of true power.

Hes always been a teacher, I cant see Cairne killing Garrosh, not in a duel like that.

Garrosh could have seen him there, with nothing but a cut... wondering why is he just sitting there... he killed a paralyzed OLD Tauren, who wasnt able to get to his feet. Thus the betrayal.

Not wise enough to hold his temper, stop himself from falsely accusing Garrosh, stop himself from challenging Garrosh to a Mak'gora, or stop himself from agreeing it be to the death.

Also, Cairne's internal monologue showed he had every intention of killing Garrosh.

[Thimagryn]

If you say you fight your dueling opponent while he fends off the other enemy at the same time, for the sake of a win, its unhonorable, and your a scumbag.

Er, story dueling to the death is different than gameplay dueling (which is not really 'to the death'). The characters were fighting for their lives. They're not concerned whether the other guy has a fair chance or not. It's a Mak'gora, not World PVP.

Besides, winning an unfair duel is not the same as betrayal. Garrosh won unfairly, but not of his own doing. This isn't what betrayal means.

[Amnasty]

Not wise enough to hold his temper, stop himself from falsely accusing Garrosh, stop himself from challenging Garrosh to a Mak'gora, or stop himself from agreeing it be to the death.

Temper had nothing to do with it, he did what he felt was right for the good of the horde, not for losing some measuring cocks competition.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 11:53 PM ----------

Er, story dueling to the death is different than gameplay dueling (which is not really 'to the death'). The characters were fighting for their lives. They're not concerned whether the other guy has a fair chance or not. It's a Mak'gora, not World PVP.

Your reading into it to much, its about the honor of the kill, Garrosh himself acknowledges the dishonor in his win, he should have taken his honorable kill from Magathas blood.

Or better yet, he shouldnt have killed the old tauren in an act HE KNEW to be dishonorable. He tossed his ideal of honor to the dogs when he hid behind his fear, and struck down his opponent who clearly showed odd symptoms from a non fatal, or crippling wound.

[Velshin]

Lets get things clear - Even at the end of the Shattering, Baine is not on the best of terms with Garrosh. He says he won't challenge him to the Mak'Gora now, but it doesn't mean he lets him off the hook forever. We know there is tension between the two. What we also know is Baine acknowledges that Garrosh wasn't behind the murder of his father. It was the focus of his entire story!

Time doesn't change facts. He doesn't sound like he's saying that out of spite, he sounds like the writers made a boo-boo and forgot that Cairne's death was Magatha's fault.

Again I will explain one more time for you man.....the reason Baine said Garrosh betrayed his father it was because of not taking action against Magatha it wasn't because of Cairne death itself because he knows 100% that it wasn't Garrosh fault that Cairne died..it was the poison and who put that poison? Magatha that means she is the main responsible of Cairne death not Garrosh he was just a tool for Magatha to kill Cairne and afterward Garrosh knew about it when he was talking to Eitrigg he was enraged super pissed and yet he didn't do anything about it just sent a letter to Magatha. Just because Baine tried to open a new page with his new Warchief and acted almost alone against Magatha doesn't mean he was super okay with Garrosh he just kept it inside of him and tried to become the better, bigger man you got what I mean? but now over years it's been years between the storyline of the Shattering and now the end of MoP and things can changes as some people say old wounds are reopened and Baine started to regret that he didn't take action against Garrosh.

He start to regret that he refused the duel when Garrosh himself offered him the chance to avenge his father death. If he knew the future...if he knew about Garrosh will be that tyrant bastard who is leading the Horde to this dark path he would gladly accepted Garrosh Mak'Gora back then but yeah as they say different time different circumstances.

[Thimagryn]

You're making shit up because Baine has no blame on Garrosh for not taking action against Magatha or the Grim Totem. I've explained before and again that even Garrosh suggested that Baine take MORE action against them, because it was worthy of revenge. There is no reason for us to believe Baine thinks this is how Garrosh 'betrayed his father'.