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  1. #81
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    I don't like it when content is put wrapped up and boxed before the expansion is even released..

    We knew Garrosh was the end boss long before we even purchased Mists of Pandaria. To me this means that once I've killed Garrosh HC, I need to brace myself for another time of bored-to-death-leveling before I get to see the next content.

    Which hopefully isn't wrapped and boxed before release too .. I like the idea that things might change, there might be a plot twist... there might be a surprise down the road. Nope. Endboss_revealed_before_expac_released_umad?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    I loved to be the Orcs in WC1-WC2 ToD/BtDP, and I played a lot when I was young, and I loved to do some skirmishes vs some Alliance friend (he stills is an Alliance guy in WoW!).
    The difference is that he still is an alliance hero, and I'm just an Horde "good guy". With Garrosh, a lot of people saw the last remains of what we liked about Warcraft story...until we kill him in the next Raid.

    Doesn't matter, it's just a game, but there was some hope to return to warcraft's origins.
    I agree man, great post! WC1&2 plot was awesome. Bring back THE Horde some of us loved! Garrosh was only the beggining. His heroic death won't stop the True Horde from being reborn!

    (WAAAAAAGH!!!)

    Btw. white knights who spew lies and hate about Garrosh shall be executed mercilessly.
    Last edited by mmoc70920841bc; 2013-06-21 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    *Nomial17 comes on and gives a load of waffle without looking at the the broader sense of scoop*

    You really assume Garrosh became this what he is now out of random, and he was destined for great things that he would unionize the horde and lead them into the future..
    Sorry but I need to catch my breath after that, laughing so hard..

    you failed to follow along the narrative of the story, you failed to notice what other lore characters noticed, and these are fictional characters, what the developers were dropping hints at all this time. Hell, if a fictional character can notice how another character is developing and you can't, it speaks volumes to ones lack of foresight.
    Except his character didn't develop along the lines he was hinted at. Make no mistake, there was a path to villainy for Garrosh that he was very likely to walk down, but something happened; Garrosh wasn't retconned — he was rushed. In early Cata up until Wolfheart, Garrosh was warlike — a conqueror — but he had two truly defined character traits: Orcish Honour — his battlefield tactics had honour to them, and his commanders who failed to fight honourably were dealt with, and he had great respect for Orcish tradition... even if he didn't necessarily understand it; his other trait was Orcish Pride — Garrosh has always been adamant that Orcish might was powerful enough to conquer anything, with no need for petty tricks.

    And then Wolfheart happened, and apropos of nothing Garrosh decided that he couldn't take a single Night Elf outpost without using Magnataur he tamed by capturing their young.... A Night Elf outpost not half-a-day's ride from Orgrimmar. Does that sound like the Garrosh we'd been exposed to up until that point? Certainly not to me. Then Tides of War happened — and though significantly better written, continued the rushed villainy of Garrosh. Attacking Theramore was, in-and-of-itself, not unreasonable; Theramore was a massive, nearby Alliance military fortification with a highway designed solely to transport troops to Alliance footholds near Orgrimmar. So when he attacked Northwatch, with more than enough forces to take it honourably, he had Dark Shamans — Shamans trained AGAINST every Orcish tradition — summon twisted creatures that had been banned by Thrall. He didn't even try to take Theramore, but used it to bloody fresh soldiers before glassing the entire place.

    Simply put, Garrosh simply had his villainy switched on, not built up — that's why some of us still hold against Garrosh. We don't deny his crimes, we just find how they came about rather ridiculous and wish they had built the character properly; shown him slip, not switch, see some progress, not just the destination.
    One day I look forward to seeing full grown adults realize that their averse reactions to levity and positive/contemplative expressions of emotion are a cry for therapy.

  4. #84
    Over 9000! Golden Yak's Avatar
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    Yeah, what Faerillis said. I'd have loved to have Cata-Garrosh as warchief forever. Could have even put up with him coming to terms with the idea of the Alliance having their place in the world and the Horde and Alliance needing to work together sometimes - Deathwing could have been Varian and Garrosh's Archimonde moment. Oh well.

    He's still pretty great. Industry + dark shaman + flesh-shaped warbeast abominations, please!

  5. #85
    I still like Garrosh.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    Deathwing could have been Varian and Garrosh's Archimonde moment. Oh well.
    there was that once concept art...........

    And as others have said, just because Garrosh is a villian now does NOT mean he always was. If Garrosh was always supposed to be depicted as evil as possible then Blizzard has down a very fail job at that.
    If he was always evil then half his story wouldnt even make sense.
    If Hellscream was so plainly evil then he would have never became Warchief, never became overlord of the Horde's armies, or never even joined the Horde either
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-06-22 at 03:26 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #87
    Garrosh was/is a solid character. Nagrand to BT to Cata and onward. Lot of time put into this guy and if you spent the time with him you grew with him and grew apart from him. Sad to see what happened with him.

  8. #88
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    The Vol'Jin - Garrosh conversation is an obvious Blizzards attempt to add something to the Vol'Jin character. Seriously, he gained 300% more dialogue after that. The interesting thing is how he acted during the conversation.
    This is a poor excuse, it's so obvious that in the conversation much of the "new" behavior of Garrosh is showed, because he was not anymore the Overlord, he was the Warchief now, and the first thing that we immediately get is that Garrosh is gathering a terrible amount of arrogance and is incredibly proud in the sole fact that he's the Warchief, all his doubts and reservations he had in the Shattering completely wiped out. We also learn of his active, even necessary but still reckless campaign against the Alliance.

    Garrosh acted like, well, Garrosh. He was always hot-headed, simple minded and harsh, he doesn't take shit from anyone. Check Vol'Jin. After a long argument we never see, he decides to insult Garrosh directly about his lineage (as we remember, the soft spot of Garrosh), openly declare that, besides the fact Thrall trusted him in advising Garrosh he is not willing to take that responsibility, that he does not accept Thralls decision - and in the end, openly threatens his life, openly declares himself the personal enemy of Garrosh. By the way, it's wise to remind that they are allies.
    Yeah indeed it's absolutely clear there that those guys don't like each other like a dog messing with a cat. And Vol'jin's statement after the conversation indeed proves that, as I said, the whole threat was little more than irritated words at that time, and he admitted that he let his temper going a little high. Still, doesn't change the fact that he sincerely thought to leave the Horde because of Garrosh's actions and behavior, and only a discussion with a Thrall stubbornly convinced to have done the right thing by appointing Garrosh convince him to remain, still, he remains very preoccupied about the situation, hoping that things will not simply get worse.

    I'm not saying that Vol'Jin is the villian here, that would be stupid. Despite the fact I don't like Vol'Jin, this conversation showed that it's more complicated than "bad guy vs good guy". Garrosh had his rights and Vol'Jin had his, and the problem was that they could not come to the mutual understanding. But the problem is, the majority of playerbase accepted this conversation to be Vol'Jin being oppressed by Garrosh the Big Meanie, and then thrown out of the city for racist reasons. You can't, you just can't ignore the fact that Vol'Jin made a few serious mistakes during the conversation, mistakes he later admitted.
    In fact is not a question about "good guy vs bad guy". It's a question about two characters that are developing in a particular way, and how they appear there will define how things will work out later.
    Garrosh doesn't accept shit and respond harsh, but nor Vol'jin do, the troll is not hot-headed but is ready to respond vicious and harsh aswell when treated like shit, simply because fit with his nature of troll, and this was known before his conversation with Garrosh, in the Elemental Unrest meeting he was ready to harshly respond to Garrosh's provocation, before Eitrigg stopped both. And this is the whole problem, who began to treat like shit the other, because we have that conversation beginning by nowhere starting with this lovable line:

    "Don't talk back to me, troll. You know who was left in charge here. Haven't you stopped to ask yourself why Thrall chose me instead of you?"

    Seriously, da fuck? By the statement is clear that Vol'jin just suggested or criticized something, he just talked back, like he did with Thrall for years, but Garrosh responded in the most idiotic way imaginable, marking him as troll, saying that Vol'jin doesn't have to "talk back to him" and beginning to foolishly validate the fact that he doesn't have to listen him because he's the Warchief, working of imagination about all the epic reasons for which Thrall chose him, while in fact Thrall chose Garrosh for shortage of alternatives, it's stated clearly in the Shattering.

    At that point he literrally invited Vol'jin to counter-talk in a similar manner, considering the fact that what Vol'jin said was nothing more than painful truth, like the fact that Garrosh was mainly chosen for all the reasons Vol'jin said. Than the thing went to worsen, but with always Garrosh outrighting insulting Vol'jin and his people in the most brutal and unrespectul manner. We cannot seriously say that Vol'jin didn't follow Thrall's will in advising Garrosh, when he tried to do so, with Garrosh going against Thrall's will, not Vol'jin, is Garrosh that is dispensing shit to his advisors, and one of the reasons Thrall gave to Garrosh the role of Warchief in GOOD FAITH is because he repeated countless times to Garrosh "listen your fucking advisors", he trusted that his advisors would have been able to guide Garrosh to a tough and wise lead in the same time.

    Too bad that first Cairne died, and then Vol'jin treated like shit, ending the thing with kicking the said advisor by his throne's room. And no, I'm not one that think to Garrosh as a racist, but indeed Garrosh is a bigot by nature, extremely easy to prejudice, it's sufficient reading Heart of War for see the quick opinion he have of almost all the Horde races, trolls included, much of these opinions based on ignorance and prejudice about the fact that he knows a good fuck of Azeroth and the races that live there. For prejudice he bashed Vol'jin "because" during the Elemental Unrest, freely mocking him, and for prejudice he treated Vol'jin like shit, ofcourse going to heavily insulting an entire race with little thought.

    No, there is not a question about the good and the bad guy, is a question about two characters that, indeed, don't like each other, that made both mistakes, but with one looking in a decent light, and the other in a very bad one, one showing all the hints of his dangerous route, and the other opposing him. Yeah, because Vol'jin indeed had a harsh behavior in 2-3 occasions during that conversation, but, while not forgetting that Garrosh incited ALL this, Vol'jin admitted his mistakes. He also excused for his behavior during the metting pre-Cata, regardless that his was a reaction, while Garrosh, that provoked for the love of do it, didn't.

    And this is another HUGE problem. When Garrosh admits mistakes in the first place? Never. I don't think I'm going that far by saying that Garrosh never admitted a mistake in his entire life. And while in Wotlk he was like "I would rather die than admit that", in Cataclysm, proud of his "I'm the Warchief", doesn't even seems to think anymore that he could possibly do something wrong. Everything he does is good and great, necessary, justifable, and anyone daring to question him can absolutely go to burn down to hell. This is what Garrosh is in Cataclysm. Why so much surprise about him becoming a dictator in Tides of War when he, technically, was already one?

    And you know what changed in Tides of War compared to Cataclysm? Garrosh in Cataclysm had the full support of his people (except Vol'jin having serious doubts about his recklessness and, indeed, some personal dislike and grudge) because his campaigns were necessary, since the Cataclysm had terribly worsen the already precarious situation in Durotar, and like Eitrigg says in Tides of War, while violent and questionable, these war campaigns helped a lot to lessen the famine of the orcish people, and putting an end to the urgency.

    But Garrosh had greater plans, which were predictable if you read Heart of War, plans twisted by personal grudge against the night elves (his defeat in Wolfheart has been a huge blow to his pride, he's completely angered in the end of the novel) and when these plans required the razing of Theramore, where lived someone like Jaina that has always been the closest Alliance figure for Horde's relationships, some orcs began to have doubts about this thing; doubts that Garrosh couldn't let to spread if he wanted to keep his people united.

    For this he stepped from an already totalitarian reign to a subtle and unforgiving dictatorship, and Malkorok, who was specifically skilled in "silencing" dissent when he was a member of the Dark Horde, has been the right man for this. Malkorok in fact became his new advisor, an advisor that this time Garrosh was very eager to listen, because what Malkorok proposed supported his plans, not denied them. In Cataclysm Garrosh give a palpable sensation that power is going to his head, in Tides of War this process worsen, he pretends to act as he wants since he deems this "necessary", going so far to say that since he's the Warchief of the Horde, Garrosh IS the Horde. Pure individualism.

    The reason for which we're going to kill Garrosh is not because he's evil, but because he's a disgusting and horrible person; a person that started with some VERY bad traits and that became 20x worse as pride and power corrupted his mind. Garrosh is a bigot and a hypocrite, someone that spit "honor" in every statement while never undestanding what true honor is, and in fact nothing of what he do or did is honorable, NOTHING, even his very survival in the duel with Cairne was due to a dishonorable act, an act in which he wasn't responsible, but was a shameful mark, obviously intended. He was arrogant, unrespectful, ruthless, even sadistic before becoming a Warchief, and after becoming one, he became insanely egocentric and showed how he was eager to do everything for obtain what he wanted, going to use and manipulate the alliances that he never valued, because this is the way he thought they were any worth, by using them when useful, and discard them when useless.
    And doesn't matter how sincere were his intentions, when he was a simple warrior, to just honor his father, his people and ensure them safety and prosperity, good intentions cannot last forever when there is nothing of truly good in you.

    And no, I'm not a Garrosh's hater, I'm not like Trassk, I like the character for what he is, and I extensively, and OBJECTIVELY, read and played all the stuff about him. And no, after all of this, I simply cannot agree, not even slightly take in consideration, anyone that still stubbornly search retcon conspirancies and bad writing excuses. Garrosh has been an amazing character for the story, because did a lot of mess and stuff, suggested a lot of inputs for future development, but in the end, he had to die. Plain and simple. While characters like Jaina are in game by ages but supporting slowly and little the development of the story, Garrosh was a character intended to be a "rush", doing an intense amount of mess in a short time, and then ending, like all the arcs involving the story of a villain.

    If you continue to delude yourselves and imagine Garrosh being a right and just Warchief, you can continue to work with that in your head, but the reality is that this is how Blizzard always planned Garrosh. Even if you would want to imagine another story, you should begin by Nagrand, because already in Wotlk, even in Heart of War, the hints of what Garrosh would have become were abundant, and bastard, vicious deus ex-machina events brought later in the story did nothing but putting Garrosh in his wagon. And even in Nagrand, you cannot forget that he was Garrosh, son of a false hero, of a person that died like a hero but had nothing good in him aswell, and like Garrosh, Grom was power-hungry, warmongering and selfish, and, seriously, true heroes don't die by saying "I have freed MYSELF"; which, indeed, make Garrosh something very near to be a tragic character, in the end.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-06-22 at 08:11 PM.

  9. #89
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    You know, like I said on another thread, all the evidence I need is there in the sound files, where Garrosh in his dying breath tells you, he saw a vision of him standing on a mountain of skulls and rivers running with blood, how he saw the world being his.

    There is nothing good in Garrosh by the end, he's another psycho.
    #boycottchina

  10. #90
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    I've always been so so when it came to Garrosh.
    I liked his quality as an old school Orc of the First-Second War. I actually really liked the amount of order he tried to enforce in the Horde notably with his officers and the Forsaken however I couldn't follow this after ToW showed he was running a police state. I like his aggressiveness and boldness when making threats or about fighting, he wasn't afraid to speak his mind.
    The fact he became a villain was irrelevant to me.

    However I find my self at a cross roads with after the 5.4 voice files. I like how he speaks as a leader of power. Yet at the same time I don't like it in a sense. He had always liked using unorthodox methods to shows his power and intelligence, but the way he's been going on about the Sha in 5.4 is rather crazy.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Valerean View Post
    Christ on a bike OP, it's a video game. Stop trying to psychoanalyze people over fantasy pixels.
    Christ on a bike, it's a video game forum. Stop trying to make yourself look smart by having a go at people who want to discuss the story surrounding fantasy pixels.

    And yeah, I don't understand Garrosh supporters either. Even as a villian he's unimpressive, little more then Cobra Commander.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncanîdaho View Post
    -Grom drank demon blood again and forced his clan to as well. After everything they already knew about it. Say what you want about Garrosh, he has not even crossed that line.
    -Grom sparked a war with a savage warrior night elf race by mercilessly harvesting the wood of living ancients and their homes. Simply to speed up the wood gathering process. Thrall gave him the simple task of building a base and he managed to get a massive battle started where both sides lost a huge amount of forces. He could of tried to handle the situation diplomatically but he instead relished the chance at battle with these new interesting warriors.
    -Grom Slew the night Elf Demi-god that they worshiped. Garrosh dug up the Vale.
    -It wasn't clear that it was Demon Blood from Grom's PoV, A Witch Doctor told him the waters were cursed, Grom simply replied "I am cursed already!"

    -he didn't spark the war, the Night Elves did when they started attacking the Orcs without asking any questions, the Warsong clan simply retaliated. They were cutting down trees until pushing a counterattack on the Night Elven Settlements (Already on the offensive) and discovered the Ancients, which held no significance to the orcs. It is rather difficult to try diplomacy with Violent Savages that are shooting arrows at you for no reason.

    -Cenarius started attacking the Orcs as well and had no intention of stopping. Hardly comparable.

    Both Hellscreams were Hotheads don't get me wrong, but to claim Grom started the Night Elven/Orc Conflict and he was at fault for killing Cenarius (Really, Cenarius brought his death upon himself) is just plain wrong. Also at the very least, during LotC and the end of his life, Grom showed a ton of remorse for his past actions, Garrosh shows none.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    let me just say this right now. If someone likes a character for being a giant douchebag for the reason that he is this way, because he does bad things, because he is ignorant, or cruel, or a bully, or every other vice, and you like him because he is this way, THAT I have no problem with. Its not what I like in any character, but if you get off on a character who is this way, thats as reasonable as it can be for liking a character like this.

    My gripe comes from people, who know the bad things he does, and actually tries to excuse it outright, as if anything he does is okay and its not him thats the bad guy, its everyone else who doesn't understand him. Bullshit, he's a bad guy and does bad things because he is a giant douche, and not being able to accept that and trying to twist the truth of that into something he isn't, thats what pisses me off.

    MasterOfKnees summed it up perfectly, he likes him as a character because he is this way, and he isn't looking for excuses to pardon his behavior. As far as reasonable excuses goes, thats great.
    Trying to take all the bad shit he's done, and turn it back on itself like its all justified, *Garrosh kills a family, cuts off there heads, shits down there necks and laughs well he does it", trying to turn that into something other then being a monster, is just beyond belief.

    If you like the character because he is a giant dick, then good for you, you at least know the score. Otherwise.. man, just, get a clue -_-
    I agree. And I have to question the morals of someone who approves even of a fictional character's actions when they are clearly doing evil. And asking "who are we to say he's doing evil things?" is just scary.

    The way the human mind works is it sometimes finds it hard to seperate 'story' and 'reality'. I hate Garrosh the same way I'd hate someone who really existed. If someone likes Garrosh (instead of finding him interesting or funny because he's so evil and twisted) I get very, very uneasy.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know, like I said on another thread, all the evidence I need is there in the sound files, where Garrosh in his dying breath tells you, he saw a vision of him standing on a mountain of skulls and rivers running with blood, how he saw the world being his.

    There is nothing good in Garrosh by the end, he's another psycho.
    "The old one calls to you. The heart will be your end. See the visions of fear, despair and doubt as I have. You will be trapped for eternity."

    When i read this, it's hardly believeable that Garrosh does not become some kind of Old God Herald.

    Garrosh emotions are spiked by the Heart, hence his Rage shows him visions of endless bloodshed and such.

    This reminds me very much of Cho'gall entering P2, though Garrosh doesn't have 2 heads.

  15. #95
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    Still like him, he boasts the best trash talk on Azeroth divides the community and made shit interesting in the story. His little speech to Thrall was amazing, no one can diss like G-dog.

  16. #96
    At this point the whole argument is moot. They have retconned Garrosh so badly that trying to connect anything from the pre-MoP Garrosh to the earlier Garrosh is pointless.

    Even in patch 5.4 they have Baine spewing crap that makes no sense to anyone who has played this game before MoP. They seem bound and determined to scrub anything of value from Garrosh and just sell him as the ultimate evil that always was and always will be.

    I wounder if they will find a way to totally whitewash the fact that Thrall hand picked Garrosh not that they have sold to have always been a purely evil bastard, or if they will just ignore it and keep the Green Jesus motif going.

  17. #97
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "The old one calls to you. The heart will be your end. See the visions of fear, despair and doubt as I have. You will be trapped for eternity."

    When i read this, it's hardly believeable that Garrosh does not become some kind of Old God Herald.

    Garrosh emotions are spiked by the Heart, hence his Rage shows him visions of endless bloodshed and such.

    This reminds me very much of Cho'gall entering P2, though Garrosh doesn't have 2 heads.
    thats what I said, Cho'galls transformation feels very much similar to Garrosh's.
    #boycottchina

  18. #98
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    I always disliked him

  19. #99
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    I just want to draw everyones attention to this, rather then make a new thread.

    Honestly, when seeing garrosh transformed into the old god mutated thing he becomes at the end of mists, I told myself 'oh yeah, he's going down for sure', even though despite up until now, I wasn't sure what blizzard was going to do, if they intended to let him live or die.
    And with the 5.4 data released, I told myself it, but in a weird way, I still had a mild doubt about it too, and I dare say the garrosh fans thought it as well.

    But, Good old Wrathion comes in, and clears up any doubt I had.

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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    The way the human mind works is it sometimes finds it hard to seperate 'story' and 'reality'. I hate Garrosh the same way I'd hate someone who really existed. If someone likes Garrosh (instead of finding him interesting or funny because he's so evil and twisted) I get very, very uneasy.
    Someone who says this makes me far more uneasy than someone saying they like fictional villains. The human mind needs to be good at separating Story and Reality, especially the mind of gamers. The industry is built on trusting the ability of people of all ages to separate fantasy and reality, because if the person's mind can't, then the player is going on guilt-free, merciless killing sprees — and often with horrific means. If we didn't know that the separation of Fantasy and Reality was so basic and fundamental, we could hardly justify the existence of games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You know, like I said on another thread, all the evidence I need is there in the sound files, where Garrosh in his dying breath tells you, he saw a vision of him standing on a mountain of skulls and rivers running with blood, how he saw the world being his.

    There is nothing good in Garrosh by the end, he's another psycho.
    Even if Garrosh is wielding the power of Y'Shaarj, rather than being controlled by it, do you really think he was entirely uneffected by it? Anger, Hatred, Pride? Don't you think those could give such an insane delusion? Trassk, I give you that most of the time you form your points well, and you're normally really quite impartial, but when it comes to Garrosh you have your blinders on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    "Don't talk back to me, troll. You know who was left in charge here. Haven't you stopped to ask yourself why Thrall chose me instead of you?"

    Seriously, da fuck? By the statement is clear that Vol'jin just suggested or criticized something, he just talked back, like he did with Thrall for years, but Garrosh responded in the most idiotic way imaginable, marking him as troll, saying that Vol'jin doesn't have to "talk back to him" and beginning to foolishly validate the fact that he doesn't have to listen him because he's the Warchief, working of imagination about all the epic reasons for which Thrall chose him, while in fact Thrall chose Garrosh for shortage of alternatives, it's stated clearly in the Shattering.
    You assume that Vol'Jin was giving advice in any sort of constructive advice/criticism — a narrative you invented — based on the way Vol'Jin was acting we have no reason to believe he was being anything but belligerent. I know the people who hated Garrosh even then love this conversation, but unless we see more it shows Vol'Jin 100% in the wrong. No two ways about it. We can't make judgments on evidence we don't have, and this is the part Vol'Jin thought cast him in the best light... what does that say.
    One day I look forward to seeing full grown adults realize that their averse reactions to levity and positive/contemplative expressions of emotion are a cry for therapy.

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