Taran Zhu: Justified Hatred

[KrazyK923]

Obviously not, because they got crippled.

Alright well there's only so many times I can explain why this line of reasoning is wrong. I consider them powerful because of what they do in the game after all of their forces aren't fighting literally all of their enemies at ONCE

EDIT: I can't believe I missed this, all of the Celestials are listed as world bosses. As well as another one called "Ordos, Fire-God of the Yaungol."

[lawow74]

Yet, as I say in the video, it is our fault that they were occupied by the Sha, Mantid, and Yaungol for the Mogu to take advantage of. We know both the Hozen and the Jinyu would gladly step up and defend Pandaria from the Mogu, and even the Grummles do so as well in the new Vol'jin book.

Is it? We didn't make the mists fall, that was Emperor Shaohao's act. If we had never arrived, the Zandalari and Mogu still would have, while the Sha would have arisen and driven the Mantid and Yaungol into action. Would they have been able to resist and fight back? Maybe, but I doubt it would have been enough to stop Lei Shen and the Mogu, even with the Jinyu, Hozen and Grummles helping. The Mogu remember how they fell before, and I doubt they would repeat that mistake, especially with direct support from the Zandalari.

Barring some miracle assassination move against Lei Shen, I just don't see them being able to muster enough to fight the Mogu and Trolls, AND deal with the Mantid. Maybe, MAYBE they could have enlisted help from the Yaungol and on a wild lark the Saurok, but even then I would foresee a long, ugly war that would have badly damaged Pandaria and fed uncounted souls into the Mogu war machine, not to mention the Sha running rampant among those caught between the various sides.

[checking facts]

The Horde would stand no chance against the Shado-Pan. Most of its forces are busy preparing to invade Ogrimmar.

5 horde or 5 alliance defeated the whole shado-pan monastery along with the sha in there. they even if the majority of the horde forces are in durotar, there are probably some 5 random dudes there to kick some shadow-panda ass.

[Combatbutler]

5 horde or 5 alliance defeated the whole shado-pan monastery along with the sha in there. they even if the majority of the horde forces are in durotar, there are probably some 5 random dudes there to kick some shadow-panda ass.

Nothing, absolutely nothing is powerful enough to stop the players. Anything will look absolutely incompetent, if it is pitted against the player.

[checking facts]

Nothing, absolutely nothing is powerful enough to stop the players. Anything will look absolutely incompetent, if it is pitted against the player.

that's the point: the vast majority of the shrine's population is composed of players. it doesn't really have a lot of NPCs in there, and many of them are golden lotus or pandaren civilians that the horde is just protecting. what's the horde in there? sunwalker dezco and his 4 bodyguards? the profession trainers? a few token NPCs? those aren't that many

[KrazyK923]

Is it? We didn't make the mists fall, that was Emperor Shaohao's act. If we had never arrived, the Zandalari and Mogu still would have, while the Sha would have arisen and driven the Mantid and Yaungol into action. Would they have been able to resist and fight back? Maybe, but I doubt it would have been enough to stop Lei Shen and the Mogu, even with the Jinyu, Hozen and Grummles helping. The Mogu remember how they fell before, and I doubt they would repeat that mistake, especially with direct support from the Zandalari.

Dave Kosak directly says that we are responsible for the unleashing the Prime Sha. That sets into motion virtually every single other thing in this expansion.

that's the point: the vast majority of the shrine's population is composed of players. it doesn't really have a lot of NPCs in there, and many of them are golden lotus or pandaren civilians that the horde is just protecting. what's the horde in there? sunwalker dezco and his 4 bodyguards? the profession trainers? a few token NPCs? those aren't that many

Players are not represented as the gods we are in the game. Watch the video's opinion section, it explains some concrete proof of the Shrine only having mostly refugees.

[Combatbutler]

that's the point: the vast majority of the shrine's population is composed of players. it doesn't really have a lot of NPCs in there, and many of them are golden lotus or pandaren civilians that the horde is just protecting. what's the horde in there? sunwalker dezco and his 4 bodyguards? the profession trainers? a few token NPCs? those aren't that many

If we are there, they might strike while the Id reset and staging a pvp world event as distraction, killing every npc while we are away and they won't respawn, forcing the players back to og for example ;P

[Omgarsh]

You wouldn't want the combined might of Xuen, Yu'lon, Chi'Ji and Niuzao against your faction.

I dunno. A group of the Warsong clan corrupted by Mannoroth's blood were able to kill Cenarius. And I think these four are on the same level. I am pretty sure if they went against Garrosh's evil guys (not players) they would lose. Obviously, if they went against the player factions, they would lose badly (cause we're supposed to win).

But I mean putting them against the bad guys of this expansion, Garrosh's "true" horde, I think Garrosh's group wins.

[lawow74]

Dave Kosak directly says that we are responsible for the unleashing the Prime Sha. That sets into motion virtually every single other thing in this expansion.

Because we landed on the shores and started up our conflict there. BUT, what I am saying is that we did not cause the mists to fall. And if we had never arrived, the Sha would still have arisen because of the conflict the Mogu and Zandalari would have caused. Lei Shen would have been resurrected, the Mogu and the Zandalari would have joined up and their conflict would cause the Sha to pop out. Chain of events would have happened without us there, and without us to help the Shado-Pan would not have been able to stand up to it all.

I am not disputing how things have played out, I am putting forth a what-if and my view of that what-if based on what we know. I don't doubt the Shado-Pan could purge the shrine if they wanted to or that they have their understandable reasons for their views. I do, however, doubt they could have saved Pandaria all on their own because without our presence things STILL would have gone bad and they wouldn't be able to withstand it all.

[KrazyK923]

There is nothing to suggest that the Mogu and Zandalari would cause the Sha to manifest. Mainly because they would be versing the Pandaren, who know how to control their emotions.

[Florena]

Because we landed on the shores and started up our conflict there. BUT, what I am saying is that we did not cause the mists to fall. And if we had never arrived, the Sha would still have arisen because of the conflict the Mogu and Zandalari would have caused. Lei Shen would have been resurrected, the Mogu and the Zandalari would have joined up and their conflict would cause the Sha to pop out. Chain of events would have happened without us there, and without us to help the Shado-Pan would not have been able to stand up to it all.

I am not disputing how things have played out, I am putting forth a what-if and my view of that what-if based on what we know. I don't doubt the Shado-Pan could purge the shrine if they wanted to or that they have their understandable reasons for their views. I do, however, doubt they could have saved Pandaria all on their own because without our presence things STILL would have gone bad and they wouldn't be able to withstand it all.

But would the Zandalari have been able to find the place with the mists still up?

[KrazyK923]

Ah, excellent point.

[KrazyK923]

How would they have known? Pandaria floated out to sea. The last time the Zandalari were there was before the Sundering.

[Sky High]

But would the Zandalari have been able to find the place with the mists still up?

we did didn't we?

[Pum]

Its not a matter of having played the game, but just a different matter of perspective.

Forgive me, but you seem to simply be using the same argument of "We saved them" while ignoring the fact that we saved them...from everything we caused. The only reason they couldn't deal with everything is because we cause most of it to happen in the first place.

Again, I think a great comparison would be if the Naga/Azshara, the Old Gods, the Emerald Nightmare, and the Burning Legion all attacked at once. Azeroth would be fucked.

Whoa, they are? *Goes to check*

These comparisons are not only silly, but so contradictory on your part.

The threat of the Old Gods (the real Old Gods, not just their 'remnants') dwarfs the Mogu, the Sha's and Mantid all put together. An intercontinental threat that is tied to the fabric of the world compared to a handful of prominent species on ONE of the continents on all of Azeroth? Doesn't make sense, doesn't compute, computer says no. Comparable to the Naga/Azshara? Maybe, but we still don't know how powerful Azshara really is, but it is a power far superior to anything the Sha's or the Thunder King could ever have harnessed.

Secondly, comparing (for arguments sake) a smaller threat (IE Mogu/Mantid/Sha) to catastrophic threats (one might say cataclysmic), only makes us 'heroes' all the more powerful.. Or so implication would dictate. When we were warring with Deathwing, the entire world was up in arms battling the various factions that were under his control. In the end, we were fighting Elemental Lords, the Twilight's Hammer, minions of an Old God (see, we've done it before) and a twistedly invigorated Aspect.. And won. Admittedly, this was by the assistance of all the other Aspects combined including their dragonflights, but this doesn't make us any less equipped to deal with a half-broken army that belongs to a prestigious sect of Pandaren society. We were dealing with nearly everything you listed at the same time, bar the Burning Legion. "the greatest fighting force this world has ever known" killed the Lich King, then they moved onto Deathwing, and then were sent as a "small, elite force" to conquer this new land.

Putting this into context, the 'we saved them' statement isn't far wrong. Yeah we saved them from the Sha (which we caused), but the Shado-pan would not have withstood the armies of Lei Shen, let alone the combined forces of the Thunder King and the Zandalari. The Shado-pan had never dealt with the most powerful Mogu emperor of all time before, and they were never going to do it 'again' especially with a Troll-bolstered army this time around. I can't remember what quests were what so correct me if I'm wrong, but in Townlong they were barely coping with the Mantid/Sha.. And how many of them have died since then? And how many more of them have died since overthrowing Lei Shen? This is all they've got, we've got three continents to throw at them.

If the Shado-pan and Taran Zhu attacked Two Moons suddenly? They'd probably overwhelm whatever form of military currently inhabits it, but they wouldn't have it for long.

P.S. Convolution is this essay's middle name. The curse of fatigue is a burden on us all.

[Kojo]

It's great, shado-pan powerful as shit blah blah blah, what are the horde a bunch of green toddlers? No, they're seasoned veterans of generations of warfare, in a society that revels in warfare; the shado-pan? their biggest war for thousands of years were mantid who kindly scheduled dates and location in advance.

Oh and we're not the cause of all their problems, them barely holding off the mogu from storming the vale is not our doing. And the sha? There was one greater sha that wasn't banished. It may not have been wandering around making its presence known but Pride was certainly there before we arrived.

[Derpleton]

The Shado-pan would've lost assuming that some players were present during the attack. I could see a 5-man group defending the shrine easily. The Horde already had some people there and the Shado-pan are worn out from having to fight every known threat on pandaria.

[KrazyK923]

Theres not much info on the whole thing, because the majority of pandaria's lore was thrown together. But its told several times that the zandalari were always intending to return to pandaria when the time was right.

And im not 100% sure about that last part, when did they tell us that the zandalari hadnt been to pandaria since the sundering?

We know for a fact Pandaria drifted out to sea. We also know for a fact the Zandalari had only come back to Pandaria after the mists parted as well as because of the Mogu's help. Took both of them. Source? Vol'jin book.

If the Shado-pan and Taran Zhu attacked Two Moons suddenly? They'd probably overwhelm whatever form of military currently inhabits it, but they wouldn't have it for long.

You're forgetting the fact that the Horde is also going through a Civil War...

As for the rest of your comment, it is completely valid to compare the two. They are Azeroth's greatest threats versus Pandaria's (Yes I know NOW they overlap because the mists are gone ectect). And while you at least acknowledged it, the fact is that the losses caused by all of the shit we unleashed would have added to their numbers. Would they have ULTIMATELY won? Who knows, since that really isn't even originally the issue, its the fact that Taran Zhu and the Shado-Pan have every reason to hate the Horde and Alliance (to a lesser extent).

[Williee]

Whether Taran Zhu can or cannot force ally or horde out of pandaria imo doesn't matter, just as any leader of their own nation, you watch out for your own before others. He won't stand idle there and let horde/ally push him around and defile his land even thou we saved him. You have to remember we were a huge factor on bringing up the sha since we brought the ally vs horde war to there coasts.
What I am wondering, what is Slyvanas doing ???

[KrazyK923]

Well we'll see at least a little of her in 5.4.