1. #2621
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What bothers me is that they chose the defensive stats -> offense route rather than the offensive stats -> defense route. It makes me question if they actually want warriors/dks/paladin to use offensive stats in the next expansion.
    I'm hoping/assuming that they DO, in fact, want to revisit the stats in the game at some point fast approaching, but that it is one of those things "best left for an expansion".

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    I think the main reason they did this is because changing two specs gearing priorities just for the final tier would be a total kick in the nuts, and balancing them to work fine with both is far too difficult if they're just going to overhaul it in a few months anyway
    We've heard over and over how they are happy with the paladin paradigm, and think it is in a good place, which makes me think the REAL solution would be to ...

    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Exactly...put them at our level, not vice versa.
    Here's hoping, anyway.

    I like SotR, and I like that it's not 100% coverage. That's skilless. 40-60%, somewhere in there, that feels about right. You're rewarded for having fast reflexes + keybinds (considerable uptime over say 20-30% from a clicker) but it's not so high that you're invincible. When's the last time you ever died when you had SotR up (in normal circumstances)? You also have to worry about timing it correctly, not just spam it mindlessly or as Theck points out macro it to every single ability you have. They've got to do something with Haste scaling and SoB, irrespective of the T16 4p.

    SotR is PERFECT for Blizzard's new model on tanking. Without it and other AM abilities they cannot have Snapping Bite or Triple Puncture. There aren't enough CDs available for it. So they can't dismantle SotR unless they want to bring us back to being no more than dumb meatshields. Lowering the time on its coverage to 1-2.5s will hurt everyone, yes, but it'll affect bad/average players the most.
    While I do think that having 100% uptime on an AM ability is a bit ridiculous in ten entry/mid tiers, how is it going to be prevented in later tiers without making the scaling absolutely abysmal? You could have it high to start, then scale really poorly with X stat, which just makes people avoid X. Or you could have it low, but scale well with X, which makes people cram as much X in as possible. In a world based on math, it takes just a few hours tops each expansion to determine which is the best stat and which is "trash". Also, without 4pt16, we still won't see 100% uptime of ShotR in t16 without close to BIS gear. Is that REALLY that big of a deal? You have the best gear possible, so you're obviously going to be stronk. We see this with crit scaling in DPS classes all the time.

    Either way, I hope ShotR stays as is, since it's a powerful, short duration ability that allows for some very creative encounter design and playstyle.

    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    basically what I said. if there is a problem, then it is with haste. but then again, why do people take haste? and then it's what you said. active mitigation. I never understood why they changed it to active mitigation and then they put bosses with FOUR DROPS which are dodge/parry in there. dodge/parry items are pretty much the one thing that is furthest away from "active" and "mitigation".

    but yes. due to the system, haste is the best thing that can be done to a prot paladin. IF they are gonna change anything but haste, nothing will change. if they change haste, people will just move over to the next thing. and that won't be dodge or parry.
    I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Haste is the problem, and the best thing that can be done? Apologies if there is a language barrier. Either way, the reason that we see so much haste stacking, particularly in 10m, is not for the AM uptime. It is for the increased throughput AND because of the fact that 10m damage intake is pretty laughable. What we are seeing now/will see soon is just the product of end tier scaling. People were not knocking on the door of 90%+ uptime in MSV, remember.

    Also, feel you on the f'king dodge/parry shit itemization. We got HC TF PARRY bracers last night. WOO! Also got like 8 capes across 13 bosses... WHY ARE THERE SO MANY CAPES?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    One area I think they do need to tweek pallies though is with wog. In its current form it is not really used at all, they've tried to make it more appealing through set bonuses, but that's not really worked out due to shitty gear itemisation on tier this exp.
    Totally agree. It's a catch-22: you want to save WOG for when you REALLY need it, else it will be weak. But, to get the most out of our set bonus(es), we need to use it often for the HoPo gains or Block %. It's just....clunky. I'm still running 2pc Ht15 because I like the "mini-CD" of WOG that I get, but I use it so infrequently I may just swap it back out now that I got the HC TF Animus helm and still am over hit cap (still no conq chest wtf!).

    I think it would actually be really cool to keep things how they are on PTR atm. Having SS (Holy Shield, now) baseline allows us to take EF, which we can/should cast far more frequently than base WOG. I guess it'd be OP, and would likely force us into EF, which doesn't really "fix" the whole mandatory talent thing, but just a thought.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What I enjoy the most about the 4p is that if it sticks, it removes all reason to use HA. I heavily dislike HA and has never used it this expansion since I feel it is very weak compared to both alternatives. If this 4p goes live, it basically kills the only niche use HA has. Havent done the math on SW yet, but possible we will see the return of SW to be the primary defensive T5 talent and DP being the offensive one.
    Tank 3+ adds on HC DA and tell me HA is weak. Same with HC IQ last phase, when it was relevant.

    But yes, as our haste continues to go up, it's foothold is weakening commensurately. t16 4p could indeed be the deathknell.

    Still not sure what you see in SW (!) but if we can achieve 100% uptime with just tier and gear, then SW is basically 30 sec of free +heal, which FINALLY makes it worth SOMETHING, to me.
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  2. #2622
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Tank 3+ adds on HC DA and tell me HA is weak. Same with HC IQ last phase, when it was relevant.

    But yes, as our haste continues to go up, it's foothold is weakening commensurately. t16 4p could indeed be the deathknell.

    Still not sure what you see in SW (!) but if we can achieve 100% uptime with just tier and gear, then SW is basically 30 sec of free +heal, which FINALLY makes it worth SOMETHING, to me.
    Which is why I said it kills HAs niche uses, since it we are able to get 100% uptime on SotR regardless of T5 talent, HA just flat out becomes to weakest talent. HA got a place in paladin tanking in just those situations as just described, however the 4p will change that.

  3. #2623
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Which is why I said it kills HAs niche uses, since it we are able to get 100% uptime on SotR regardless of T5 talent, HA just flat out becomes to weakest talent. HA got a place in paladin tanking in just those situations as just described, however the 4p will change that.
    Which is why I said I agreed with you (once t16 hits)!

    Was more arguing against the comment that it "has always been weak".
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  4. #2624
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Which is why I said I agreed with you (once t16 hits)!

    Was more arguing against the comment that it "has always been weak".
    Hmm... Should not have said weak... All T5 talents are strong. I just think HA drew the niche straw more often than the go-to straw.

    If we look at the tiers, we had T14, DP really draw the short straw here, this is simply due to how well DP scales with haste and we did not have so much of it in T14. SW drew the long straw here, since it fitted well into most fights, it is the least haste reliant T5 talent, it provided the highest dps increase aswell as the insane scaling with ret 4p if you had your hands on that. HA had its uses aswell here, on some fight it was great.

    In T15 SW drew the short straw, it fits awkwardly into most fights, no more ret 4p and our increased haste levels made DP far surpass SW. SW did no longer provide the highest dps increase aswell. The only fight where SW is actually great on is Durumu. Basically what happened in T15 was that SW and DP switched roles. DP become the go-to option with HA still being viable and better on some fights (as those you mentioned earlier) for those niche uses.

    T16 would look the same as T15 if it was not for the T16 4p. Since it allows 100% SotR uptime it makes HA pretty much useless compared to DP. Not only will HA feel very awkward to use with the 4p, it just simply provide no benefit at all over DP if both reach 100% uptime. However, since with DP you will be able to reach around 130-150%~ uptime, this creates an interesting choice between the other two. Basically SW catches up in the SotR uptime department. So what you get is an active choice. A 20% healing taken buff for 30 seconds ever 3 minutes vs more damage. A defensive CD vs more dps.
    I forsee DP being the go-to talent and SW being a niche for those fights you need that healing increase in T16 if nothing changes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-26 at 12:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Also, without 4pt16, we still won't see 100% uptime of ShotR in t16 without close to BIS gear. Is that REALLY that big of a deal? You have the best gear possible, so you're obviously going to be stronk. We see this with crit scaling in DPS classes all the time..
    You will be able to reach 100% SotR with almost 0% haste if you are using DP instead of HA.

    Edit: Yeah, double checked using a 100 minute fight with low GC proc rate (gc providing a 5% HoPo increase). Theoretical max uptime at 0% haste and T15 4p was 112% uptime. Though, that is not considering that a lot of HoPo gets wasted when you get GC procs on the fifth sotr and the WoG, aswell as dp procs not being fully used if they proc on the fifth SotR as you wont gain any more BoG stacks on it. So around the 100% +-5% seems more reasonable. Though again, that was with a very low GC proc rate so with normal GC proc rate it would probably be a few % higher.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-06-26 at 12:58 PM.

  5. #2625
    Deleted
    You will be able to reach 100% SotR with almost 0% haste if you are using DP instead of HA.
    Can I ask, how you are coming to this conclusion?
    It seems rather exaggerated.

  6. #2626
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    Can I ask, how you are coming to this conclusion?
    It seems rather exaggerated.
    100 minute fight. 6000 seconds. 1333 CS/HotR, 889 J (presuming you start the fight with a J on pull), presume 5% increase from GC, or 112 procs (now, on average you would get 160 procs from CS alone disregarding dogde/parry procs so this is very very very low).
    That is 2334 HoPo to work with from the start. Remove 16 to complete the first "cycle", since you wont start the fight with 5 BoG stacks. Lets also round down in favor of lower uptime that you dont get any DP procs from the first cycle. 2328 HoPo left. On each cycle you will on average get 2 DP procs. Lowering the amount of Hopo you need to reg to complete a cycle to 5. 2328/5 = 465.6 cycles. Add in the first cycle and round down so we got 464 cycles.
    That is 464x5 SotRs or 2330 SotRs, 6720 seconds of SotR, 112% uptime.

    The problem with this is, as I mentioned in the last post, that it is a fairy tale world where you would only get procs DP procs on the first 4 SotRs. So in reality this would cause some HoPo overcapping lowering the uptime a bit, however you would also regain a lot more HoPo from GC than in this example so 100% or above seems fairly reasonable.

    The problem is, people have not yet understood how insane the synergy between DP and the 4p is.

  7. #2627
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Stuff about previous tiers and DP vs SW vs HA...
    I forsee DP being the go-to talent and SW being a niche for those fights you need that healing increase in T16 if nothing changes.
    Yep, pretty much what I came to as well, underlined the big caveat though.

    You will be able to reach 100% SotR with almost 0% haste if you are using DP instead of HA.
    Note that my comment stated that without 4pt16, we won't see 100% uptime without BIS (IE high haste off-set) gear.

    Edit: Yeah, double checked using a 100 minute fight with low GC proc rate (gc providing a 5% HoPo increase). Theoretical max uptime at 0% haste and T15 4p was 112% uptime. Though, that is not considering that a lot of HoPo gets wasted when you get GC procs on the fifth sotr and the WoG, aswell as dp procs not being fully used if they proc on the fifth SotR as you wont gain any more BoG stacks on it. So around the 100% +-5% seems more reasonable. Though again, that was with a very low GC proc rate so with normal GC proc rate it would probably be a few % higher.
    Assuming you meant t16 here, but anyway...Still want to make sure we're modeling this properly. Are you absoultely certain that with ZERO native haste and JUST the 4pc bonus (and DP), you're going to meet and exceed 100% uptime? I just...don't see how. With 20k+ haste, sure, of course. With zero? I need to see some actual math/testing.

    Edit - saw your post above, and I can't find flaws with the math on that. Obviously it's stochastic, but it's also heavily favored against haste, so ANY haste values would only further push us to/above 100%. I just...it just....doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-06-26 at 01:24 PM.
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  8. #2628
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Assuming you meant t16 here, but anyway...Still want to make sure we're modeling this properly. Are you absoultely certain that with ZERO native haste and JUST the 4pc bonus (and DP), you're going to meet and exceed 100% uptime? I just...don't see how. With 20k+ haste, sure, of course. With zero? I need to see some actual math/testing.

    Edit - saw your post above, and I can't find flaws with the math on that. Obviously it's stochastic, but it's also heavily favored against haste, so ANY haste values would only further push us to/above 100%. I just...it just....doesn't make sense.
    Actually, there is a flaw in it, just noticed it, working on correcting it now. Used a template I made when I was tired after being up for 24 hours straigth. The fixed version should probably have about 90% uptime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Note that my comment stated that without 4pt16, we won't see 100% uptime without BIS (IE high haste off-set) gear.
    Well, you wont see 100% uptime even in BiS gear if you dont have the 4p.


    Edit: okay so fixed my model, 84% uptime at 0% haste and low GC procs. For reference, if we assume the average amount of GC procs (disregarding dodge/parry procs), that becomes 86% uptime. So around 80-90% ish with 0% haste and DP when you consider luck/badluck. Pushing that to 100% does not require that much haste though.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-06-26 at 01:38 PM.

  9. #2629
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Actually, there is a flaw in it, just noticed it, working on correcting it now. Used a template I made when I was tired after being up for 24 hours straigth. The fixed version should probably have about 90% uptime.
    Interested to see what you changed, and how this affects the overall values.

    Well, you wont see 100% uptime even in BiS gear if you dont have the 4p.
    Sigh, that was my point all along! That even with 21250+H, you'd need some stellar DP luck to get 100% ShotR (without the 4pc), so all of these "OMG NERF!" comments are kinda silly. The original comment was directed at a different poster who was talking about that, but somehow you picked it up out of context I think. I'm ballparking ~85-90% uptime at 50% haste with moderate DP procs, sans 4pc.


    Edit: okay so fixed my model, 84% uptime at 0% haste and low GC procs. For reference, if we assume the average amount of GC procs (disregarding dodge/parry procs), that becomes 86% uptime. So around 80-90% ish with 0% haste and DP when you consider luck/badluck. Pushing that to 100% does not require that much haste though.
    So, the 4pc is worth approximately the same value as 50% haste. Jeeez...if that's correct, that's like getting 20k secondaries (assuming you properly perform the "rotation/cycle").
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  10. #2630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    What I enjoy the most about the 4p is that if it sticks, it removes all reason to use HA. I heavily dislike HA and has never used it this expansion since I feel it is very weak compared to both alternatives. If this 4p goes live, it basically kills the only niche use HA has. Havent done the math on SW yet, but possible we will see the return of SW to be the primary defensive T5 talent and DP being the offensive one.
    I actually enjoyed the aspect of HA being "on-demand 30sec+ shieldwall" with 2min CD. Don't like the randomness of DP and SW just feels wrong changing rotation to spamming J.
    And yes, as Nairobi pointed out, it's really useful for heavy damage phases like solo-tanking Iron Qon last phase (or, well, any time you get 7+ stacks giving you massive vengeance), surviving last phase on Horridon, tanking through orb debuffs on Dark Animus (2 weeks ago we went there on 10man normal, I grabbed 9 orbs at once just for lols, popped everything and managed to get 800k ap from vengeance, doing almost 1M dps).

  11. #2631
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    I actually enjoyed the aspect of HA being "on-demand 30sec+ shieldwall" with 2min CD. Don't like the randomness of DP and SW just feels wrong changing rotation to spamming J.
    I really dislike the change they are making to SW in the 5.4 patch, J-J-J-J just feels wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Interested to see what you changed, and how this affects the overall values.
    Just an error with double counting DPs in the cycles.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-06-26 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #2632
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I really dislike the change they are making to SW in the 5.4, J-J-J-J just feels wrong.
    Though, this could be amazing for any kind of ranged heavy encounter (or for kiting). 100% uptime on LAtoL and loldmg. It's pretty niche tho, and lame "rotation" for sure.

    Just an error with double counting DPs in the cycles.
    Gotcha. Still, an impressive (daresay broken) amount of "haste equivalent" granted from the 4pc, if it goes live as is.
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  13. #2633
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Assuming you meant t16 here, but anyway...Still want to make sure we're modeling this properly. Are you absoultely certain that with ZERO native haste and JUST the 4pc bonus (and DP), you're going to meet and exceed 100% uptime? I just...don't see how. With 20k+ haste, sure, of course. With zero? I need to see some actual math/testing
    I had conflicting issues on the PTR doing actual testing. At one point I was able to reliably achieve 100% uptime and have 25+ seconds on SotR with 40% haste+DP. In actual raid testing, I wasn't able to achieve it (scaled down to roughly 35%+DP). Whether it was because I had to move the boss around to avoid things or what, or maybe I just didn't have enough DP procs I don't know. I have no way of going over my logs at the moment because WoL is down. As soon as it comes back up I'll double check and see.

  14. #2634
    seeking some info to solo tank jinrokh hc since out other tank cant make it tonight, whats best. just soak the dmg from static burst and heal through. let a dps take the debuff or can u just simply bubble it away?
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  15. #2635
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Though, this could be amazing for any kind of ranged heavy encounter (or for kiting). 100% uptime on LAtoL and loldmg. It's pretty niche tho, and lame "rotation" for sure.

    Gotcha. Still, an impressive (daresay broken) amount of "haste equivalent" granted from the 4pc, if it goes live as is.
    You had 100% uptime before so that did not really change anything. It is only a dps and HoPo regen increase, which is fine I guess. The effect is nice, but the feel gets messed up a bit.



    The impressive part about the 4ps HoPo regen is that it scales with haste. If it is that good at 0% haste, imagine at higher haste levels

  16. #2636
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    I had conflicting issues on the PTR doing actual testing. At one point I was able to reliably achieve 100% uptime and have 25+ seconds on SotR with 40% haste+DP. In actual raid testing, I wasn't able to achieve it (scaled down to roughly 35%+DP). Whether it was because I had to move the boss around to avoid things or what, or maybe I just didn't have enough DP procs I don't know. I have no way of going over my logs at the moment because WoL is down. As soon as it comes back up I'll double check and see.
    I'd wager it's the movement/time off target, as well as general "fight vs paper" stuff, butI'd be interested to see what your logs say. I'd like to hop on and test, but work has been crazy and our raid team is pretty much on "log in and clear on Tues, then afk" mode

    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    seeking some info to solo tank jinrokh hc since out other tank cant make it tonight, whats best. just soak the dmg from static burst and heal through. let a dps take the debuff or can u just simply bubble it away?
    You can pre-emptively bubble-taunt before the debuff goes out after being thrown, or used to anyway. I tried it last week to try and cheese DPS, and ended up not working. Not sure if it was fixed, or if I mis-timed (I changed from DBM to BigWigs, so the bars/warnings were a bit new). The damage to the raid is pretty significant though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The impressive part about the 4ps HoPo regen is that it scales with haste. If it is that good at 0% haste, imagine at higher haste levels
    But, if we can get 100% with zero haste, why/how would more HoPo reg help us? I agree that it's a very cool/exciting set bonus, but once you're past 100% uptime, all we gain is extra ShotR duration when the fight is over, right?
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  17. #2637
    You can pre-emptively bubble-taunt before the debuff goes out after being thrown, or used to anyway. I tried it last week to try and cheese DPS, and ended up not working. Not sure if it was fixed, or if I mis-timed (I changed from DBM to BigWigs, so the bars/warnings were a bit new). The damage to the raid is pretty significant though.
    so in other words. since we got 2 palas. we can just pop a devo in between and healing through debuff should be fine if i dont stand in water or?
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  18. #2638
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    so in other words. since we got 2 palas. we can just pop a devo in between and healing through debuff should be fine if i dont stand in water or?
    Can't confirm for sure, but tanking with stacks and in the water is not going to last long. If you stand outside, you might be OK, but it's a lot of really unneccesary damage. Is there not another tank option, or DPS who can just soak the debuff?
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  19. #2639
    we got a dk /warr dps in raid, assuming both have some sort of taunt as dps? will they get a melee swing hit aswell or is there like a reset while he applies debuff? aka they only get debuff and not a melee swing.

    The damage to the raid is pretty significant though.
    ops. i read insignificant haha
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  20. #2640
    DPS DK has no taunt (minus deathgrip). Warriors do.

    Both will likely take a melee hit or 2, so going defensive is probably best. I'd suggest warrior taunt and DBTS to avoid taking any damage. Can neither of them just tank? Trying to 1 tank this is making the fight far more difficult than it needs to be. Not sure what your DPS is, but we kill him before the 2nd pool even spawns, so it's not like it's a DPS race.
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