[Balance] 5.4 Changes and Thoughts

[huth]

we really were Oomkins back then, and brought almost nothing to the table that a Tree couldn't bring better.

And that was still better than talented Hurricane. Now excuse me, i need to go beat people with a big stick to get my mana back.

[Slapsgiving]

Not to be rude, but to all people talking about how bad moonkins are and ya are being abused with the nerfs to it and how other classes are better, have ya tried for example warlock? Or any other class that might suit you better? I was troubling with moonkin at one point, leveled a mage, a priest, warlock to 60s but I found moonkin so much funnier that I turned back to it. I also get sometimes a feeling that I must play some other class than druid, so I just log on to some class and play it for a while until I get pissed with it and turn back to moonkin and I am happy owl again!
I found the value of moonkin when I was apart from it for a while. I just found it funnier to play.

While I appreciate and sympathise with the message of your post , that is a part of the problem... I play a warlock on the side. Either as demonology or destruction, I find the class obscenely rewarding. Specifically, AoE is just nuts. Also, their main DPS cd is on a 2 Minute cooldown. It allows you a lot of leeway, very adaptive playstyle with virtually 0 penalty for moving, great utility, nuts in challenge modes for damage and control... Basically the same, you can say for elemental shamans, which are actually worse if you think about utility on top of that. It is hard going back to play my boomie and sit through Hurricane for 20 seconds while nothing exciting happens, especially damage-wise.

Don't get me wrong, I love my moonkin and all, but in this expansion their issues have been largely ignored. Still doing ok? Sure. Largely gear-dependent? Way too much. Interesting mechanics? Meh.

[Aboubacar]

While I appreciate and sympathise with the message of your post , that is a part of the problem... I play a warlock on the side. Either as demonology or destruction, I find the class obscenely rewarding. Specifically, AoE is just nuts. Also, their main DPS cd is on a 2 Minute cooldown. It allows you a lot of leeway, very adaptive playstyle with virtually 0 penalty for moving, great utility, nuts in challenge modes for damage and control... Basically the same, you can say for elemental shamans, which are actually worse if you think about utility on top of that. It is hard going back to play my boomie and sit through Hurricane for 20 seconds while nothing exciting happens, especially damage-wise.

Don't get me wrong, I love my moonkin and all, but in this expansion their issues have been largely ignored. Still doing ok? Sure. Largely gear-dependent? Way too much. Interesting mechanics? Meh.

Exactly, I'm pretty sure most of us play more than a druid, so we aren't making things up. The idea is appreciated, but as slapsgiving eludes to a bit, it makes you realize how much better the QoL most other casters have (maybe with the exlusion of shadow, but id take mind sear over hurricane any day). We enjoy the druid playstyle and that's why we are playing it. It is just frustrating that a lot of things balance does are insanely easier for other classes, and on top of that they are rewarded with more damage for an easier to execute spell.

[Minituk]

No offense, but I don't believe that this is the complaint department. Could we possibly keep discussions towards the topic, and not towards complaining that "moonkin sucks"?

[artem123]

No offense, but I don't believe that this is the complaint department. Could we possibly keep discussions towards the topic, and not towards complaining that "moonkin sucks"?

Changes and thoughts, Complaining is a thought, is it not? but yeah some aspects are going to a diff direction

[Deleted]

With regards to the 4 set bonus, have people actually tried coming up with alternatives? Things that would work.

If they want the set bonus to work with Celestial Alignment, I think the following solution might be more suited:
- Every time you enter an eclipse, the duration of your next Celestial Alignment is increased by 1 second, up to 15 seconds.

Pros:
-Will allow us to stack Incarnation and CA together for a full duration
-Scales with gear to a certain degree (You'd be capped at getting a 15 second increase)
-Careful monitoring required to get the max dps out of it. -> spices up the play
-More beneficial on multi target fights, as you'd have a higher uptime on your double eclipse dots, but which in turn is then neatly balanced by the fact you'd be cycling through less eclipses on such fights.
Cons:
-Perhaps favors Incarnation over FoN or SoFT.
-Perhaps we'd be shoehorned into swapping eclipses 15 times pre fight, to annoyance of our raid leaders.
-Nature's grace during CA would be out of sync. (Solution: Also increase NG uptime for the effect during CA or just bake the 15% bonus of NG into CA, and remove CA triggering the effect, since atm, they have the same length anyways.)

Personally I'd rather have this:
-Allow Shooting Stars to stack up to a small number of charges (3 to 5).

Pros:
-Less SS proc wastage, which is what we are currently dealing with the higher levels of gear we obtain.
-Changes up the playstyle from button mashing your Starsurge button just incase something procs.
-Increase our dps during short movement (stack up the charges till a movement phase hits)
Cons:
-Perhaps too powerful of a burst (here, have 5 seconds of 600k dps.)
-Could be harder to implement via the use of a set bonus.
-Questionable dps gain (If you're going to save up stacks for quick add burst for example, you'd always stay at one stack away from maximum stacks, thus running into the same problem as today.)
-Bandaid fix for the current waste of SS procs problem we've been dealing with.

I personally feel a 4set should vary up the playstyle in some form. A small increase in dot time is enough to achieve this (as we've seen with T14). But they could well do with some kind of passive bonus, or rather, something that doesn't vary up the playstyle by any significant amount, such as:
-Shooting Stars will now also increase the damage bonus of your next eclipse by 2%, this effect stacks. (compensation for SS proc waste)
-Wrath has a 50% chance to increase the duration on your next Starfall by 1 second, this effect stacks.

[Cybb]

-Allow Shooting Stars to stack up to a small number of charges (3 to 5).

I would PvP again

[Slippykins]

With regards to the 4 set bonus, have people actually tried coming up with alternatives? Things that would work.

If they want the set bonus to work with Celestial Alignment, I think the following solution might be more suited:
- Every time you enter an eclipse, the duration of your next Celestial Alignment is increased by 1 second, up to 15 seconds.

I like the first idea - although, like you said you'd have guaranteed no NG time after the initial 15 seconds. I don't think it'd end up being a DPS increase, but it still might be. Lengthening the duration of NG along with the CA would make it much better.

They could do something boring like "CA confers an additional x% bonus to eclipse while active," or "Using CA increases your mastery by 1000 for 3 minutes." First option means more burst and synergy with Incarnation, second option meters the additional damage out over a full cooldown cycle.

Personally I'd rather have this:
-Allow Shooting Stars to stack up to a small number of charges (3 to 5).

Would be too overpowered for PvP. If you were able to stack up 3-5 SS procs, and then pop your CDs to supplement them, you'd find our burst to be too strong. Our burst currently relies on "the stars aligning" or getting a couple of SS procs in a row - this essentially guarantees that happening and almost has no random mechanic to it with high crit. It'd be nice if they just baked in SS procs stacking to 2 as baseline for Boomkins, so we didn't have so much SS proc waste, 3-5 is a little too high.

Anyway, I'm not very good at making suggestions, but I suppose this is a good place to posit them. Not sure any of the ideas will actually be read by Blizzard, so it's more just for brainstorming.

[apepi]

HOTW NS is a defensive cooldown itself. How are you going to act like it is useless.

Because say cloak of shadows reduces damage, and would stop me from dieing, but if I am very close to dieing NS might not save me. Just a plain defensive cd is a bit less reactive to a certain extent and allows for less damage take. I would rather reduce damage taken rather then heal any day of the week.

[Deleted]

I like the first idea - although, like you said you'd have guaranteed no NG time after the initial 15 seconds. I don't think it'd end up being a DPS increase, but it still might be. Lengthening the duration of NG along with the CA would make it much better.

They could do something boring like "CA confers an additional x% bonus to eclipse while active," or "Using CA increases your mastery by 1000 for 3 minutes." First option means more burst and synergy with Incarnation, second option meters the additional damage out over a full cooldown cycle.

I personally think that the dev team is currently lacking the inspiration to come up with a set bonus that would actually be somewhat meaningful for a balance druid without just bluntly taking one from the past.
The current T16 4p is an example of that, they're just taking set bonuses that they have done before with other specs and apply it to a baseline cooldown all Balance druids have available, CA. Since they cannot actually increase the strength of the optional talents as that might pose some balancing issues. The problem is that the one they came up with just doesn't work for a balance druid and actually indirectly discourages the usage of Incarnation while favoring the usage of SotF.

I personally think your ideas would be better to provide an actual measurable dps increase, because as we have seen, CA on single target fights by it self is not really a big or noteworthy increase in damage output and that the talent only really shines on multi target fights.

Would be too overpowered for PvP. If you were able to stack up 3-5 SS procs, and then pop your CDs to supplement them, you'd find our burst to be too strong. Our burst currently relies on "the stars aligning" or getting a couple of SS procs in a row - this essentially guarantees that happening and almost has no random mechanic to it with high crit. It'd be nice if they just baked in SS procs stacking to 2 as baseline for Boomkins, so we didn't have so much SS proc waste, 3-5 is a little too high.

That was also a concern of mine when I initially came up with it, after reading some posts suggesting this.
The thing is that only allowing it to go up to 2, wouldn't change much in our play style and going up to 3 could potentially add in some strategic element into saving starsurge procs to quickly burst one target down in a fight, like an add. For example, the Loa spirit/Twisted Fate (Which is a terrible example, given the encounter is a 4 mob multidot fight for us, but still). Perhaps they could counter balance it and make the additional applications be dispellable?
Also, bear in mind that you'd have to give up around 3.5k pvp power and the pvp setbonuses in order to get the T16 4p one, which is a substantial sacrifice in pvp.

but I suppose this is a good place to posit them. Not sure any of the ideas will actually be read by Blizzard, so it's more just for brainstorming.

It is just an idea to give developpers some additional feedback, rather than just complain at them for coming up with a terrible set bonus, you could provide them with some ideas in a friendly manner. As we have seen, they do listen to the community.

[Deleted]

We are better off than most classes imo so i'm happy as things are. We still don't know how the new gear and trinkets will effect things so at the this whole NS gone tier 4 set whine is pointless.

We don't need NS really, we have other options to survive, the set bonus might look underwhelming but no one has the numbers yet so no point crying over it.

Atm i think boomkins are in a good position.

[Juvencus]

We don't need NS really, we have other options to survive, the set bonus might look underwhelming but no one has the numbers yet so no point crying over it.

Atm i think boomkins are in a good position.

You don't need to wait for Live to see that the bonus sucks hard. CD reduction is not a groundbreaking effect and CA does not receive any changes (atm at least), so it's quite easy to calculate it.

[Deleted]

the set bonus might look underwhelming but no one has the numbers yet so no point crying over it.

Just try DPS with only activating CA and you'll barely notice any difference since the only benefit you get from CA alone is a "pro-longed" eclipse phase, an extra starfall and your 2nd dot will be eclipsed. You still have to get to the next eclipse without any NG.

So numbers wise you cannot use that arguement since CA is not exactly where our DPS comes from, it does in multi target situations but thats a complete different story.

[Reyzzz]

We are better off than most classes imo so i'm happy as things are. We still don't know how the new gear and trinkets will effect things so at the this whole NS gone tier 4 set whine is pointless.

We don't need NS really, we have other options to survive, the set bonus might look underwhelming but no one has the numbers yet so no point crying over it.

Atm i think boomkins are in a good position.

You do realize they made NS baseline for both resto and balance?

[Deleted]

You don't need to wait for Live to see that the bonus sucks hard. CD reduction is not a groundbreaking effect and CA does not receive any changes (atm at least), so it's quite easy to calculate it.

I said the bonus is underwhelming, which means it fail to impress or make a positive impact but i don't see why you've reiterated that back to me because i'm not saying it looks good...

I just really don't see the point in going on about it until with have hard evidence of our dps in the next patch. It maybe be pants but if we can still be a viable selection then i'm not really bothers about the set bonus.

[Deleted]

Just try DPS with only activating CA and you'll barely notice any difference since the only benefit you get from CA alone is a "pro-longed" eclipse phase, an extra starfall and your 2nd dot will be eclipsed. You still have to get to the next eclipse without any NG.

So numbers wise you cannot use that arguement since CA is not exactly where our DPS comes from, it does in multi target situations but thats a complete different story.

You can't judge a spell on it's own because in a raid it's always going to be effected by stats/procs/BL/pots etc. Again i'm not saying the tier bonus is good i just don't think it's worth talking about until we know how our dps as a whole is. We've not seen enough yet to have a clear picture.

[Deleted]

You do realize they made NS baseline for both resto and balance?

Last time i checked it was a specialized ability for resto only, maybe wowheads ptr page has not been updated, has anyone got a link to say otherwise?

[Juvencus]

You can't judge a spell on it's own because in a raid it's always going to be effected by stats/procs/BL/pots etc. Again i'm not saying the tier bonus is good i just don't think it's worth talking about until we know how our dps as a whole is. We've not seen enough yet to have a clear picture.

What me and the other guys meant is that you don't need any other variables to extrapolate the effect of CA. Even if our DPS increases/decreases it doesn't change the role of CA, not with the current changes we have.

The whole point of PTR is to whine so things get fixed. Look what warlocks have accomplished. Waiting for live is almost too late.

Last time i checked it was a specialized ability for resto only, maybe wowheads ptr page has not been updated, has anyone got a link to say otherwise?

Nature's Swiftness is now a Resto and Balance spec spell.

[xtramuscle]

I said the bonus is underwhelming, which means it fail to impress or make a positive impact but i don't see why you've reiterated that back to me because i'm not saying it looks good...

I just really don't see the point in going on about it until with have hard evidence of our dps in the next patch. It maybe be pants but if we can still be a viable selection then i'm not really bothers about the set bonus.

You're somewhat missing the point. You're saying its okay as long as our dps is viable (with or without the 4set) - while other classes dps will be viable, AND THEY GET A USEFUL 4 set; thus making us UNVIABLE.

There's no point sitting it out, receiving the set bonus and then saying 'Hey - how did that go live, now we're stuck with it' we want it changed before it goes live, and the time to make that happen is now. Once it has been implemented they may 'balance' it with a % mod, or a few extra seconds removed from the CD, but largely its the MECHANIC we dislike, not the specific reduction it offers. Unless we can get 2 CA per Incarnation cycle, it doesn't matter if its 3 seconds, 5 seconds or 10. If we can't line it up, it's not all that good.

[Deleted]

I made a thread on EU forums a while back, maybe people can post there with their idea also, might help the cause.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7713682410

I hope people agree with most of the things i have said