[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Cheekun]

I've been sitting here considering going below exp cap to maximize my haste (I currently sit at 31%). What is the general consensus on doing this? What exactly would I be losing? Is it worth it in order to get the extra haste?

[pld]

There are a handful of people here that do just that. You would basically be opening yourself up to the possibility of getting a HoPo generator parried at a very inopportune time and getting you killed.

[Promdates]

Mmm, good point. Maybe i'm "stressing" over something that isn't a big deal. I'm surprised/impressed/curious how you have so much haste despite using 4P. Do you use Holy haste gear?

I have a few Hit/Mastery pieces, but I think the only remaining D/P piece I have left is my shield.

Nope. Just regular prot/ret gear. I'm sure someone out there has more than 17k unbuffed though that's not using tier.

[Cheekun]

There are a handful of people here that do just that. You would basically be opening yourself up to the possibility of getting a HoPo generator parried at a very inopportune time and getting you killed.

I was really considering that and I've come to realise that most mechanics that are going to kill you, you can generally deal with it by pooling Hpower in preparation of said abilities. If you get parried while pooling couldn't you compensate by using DP or any number of your other cooldowns? I guess what I'm really digging at is, what is the value of a few extra % of haste over what i currently have? Essentially more potential Hpower generation?

[Deleted]

I was really considering that and I've come to realise that most mechanics that are going to kill you, you can generally deal with it by pooling Hpower in preparation of said abilities. If you get parried while pooling couldn't you compensate by using DP or any number of your other cooldowns? I guess what I'm really digging at is, what is the value of a few extra % of haste over what i currently have? Essentially more potential Hpower generation?

Exactly what you said here. If you know how to pool Hpower properly, especially in a 10 man environment, you will gain dps, hps, hopo and absorbs from SS at the cost of nothing. This is of course depending on your haste and expertise levels, but if you are ToT geared, even going away from expertise you should still get about 12-13 expertise with a hit>haste>exp prio.

[Cheekun]

Exactly what you said here. If you know how to pool Hpower properly, especially in a 10 man environment, you will gain dps, hps, hopo and absorbs from SS at the cost of nothing. This is of course depending on your haste and expertise levels, but if you are ToT geared, even going away from expertise you should still get about 12-13 expertise with a hit>haste>exp prio.

Interestingly enough, I was looking at my reforges and such and I only stand to effectively pick up an exra percent or so of haste, I honestly don't know what i stand to gain from a shift from 32%-33%. The only thing i can really gather from my gear levels and reforging is that I must be in a weird sort of position were i have a perfect balance of expertise to haste etc, As only one piecie of gear that I am using is reforged away from haste (to hit said exp cap). Everying else ethier has haste on it already, or is reforged to it. I guess once again what I'm trying to get at is this: If my gear falls into this category then the only difference between a hit>haste>exp build and say a hit>exp>haste build is one reforge?

My armory is Torahn at Stormreaver (can't post links).

[Deleted]

Yeah, the differences are really really really small, in the end it really does not matter that much, only for real min-maxing.

[Korie]

Right, so I started playing my Protection Paladin after deciding to give up since I literally couldnt figure out how to play it properly, I decided to give it another go because I really missed the class & role, the thing is, I currently practise my rotation(From Icy Veins)

Crusader Strike

Judgment

filler(Using Avenger's Shield here)

Crusader Strike

filler(Using Holy Wrath here)

Judgment

Crusader Strike

filler(Using Consecration here)

filler(Using L90 talent or Avenger's Shield procs here, if nothing is up I skip it.)

But I have one thing I dont completely understand what if I'd get a Grand Crusader proc at step 6(Judgment) and since I still have a Crusader Strike & a Consecration to use I'd lose the proc, if I'd prioritize the proc over the rotation it would mean Avenger's Shield would be on Cooldown on Step 3, how am I supposed to tackle the procs & not let it mess up the rotation?

Also, where would I be casting Sacred Shield?

[Deleted]

You would replace the consecration with AS.

Use sacred shield as a filler.

[Korie]

You would replace the consecration with AS.

Use sacred shield as a filler.

So if AS procs replace 3(Avenger's Shield filler) with 8(Consecration Filler) or recast Sacred Shield if Its close to falling off & ignore Consecration?

[Deleted]

You filler priority according to me should be roughly GC proc>SS refresh(if needed)>HW(with FW glyph)>AS>HW>Cons, of course using L90 talent properly with high vengeance or when needed.

Consecration is not that important part of your rotation. It is okay to let it fall behind on single target.

[Deleted]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ubble/advanced

Wouldn't mind a quick 'check-up' (think 10-H 13/13 content) as I havn't played Prot since 5.1

[Dirdie]

Firefly, For maximum DPS on a single target boss farm kill. What glyph's would you use? Im always curious on how to up my DPS.

[Deleted]

Firefly, For maximum DPS on a single target boss farm kill. What glyph's would you use? Im always curious on how to up my DPS.

Highly depends on the boss. Got any specific boss you have in mind or just in general?

Though generally speaking, final wrath, focused shield and alabaster shield yields the highest dps on most fights, but you will be without battle-healer then. The tougher questions is which 2 glyphs gives the highest dps when using battle healer.
Double Jeopardy is also a huge increase if you have 2 targets but it takes a lot of skill to maintain, so that is more of an oddball.

Generally speaking, Focused Wrath I see as almost mandatory on most fights.

Major Glyph 1: Final Wrath - Use this on almost every fight as I like cheating dps in the burn phase for those ranks
Major Glyph 2: Focused Shield if on single-target, otherwise alabaster shield
Major Glyph 3: Battle-healer if needed or if you are not using Focused Shield, otherwise alabaster shield

There are some exceptions to this and as said, if you can use double jeopardy properly (I dont bother with it), it has the potential to be a great glyph aswell.

- - - Updated - - -

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ubble/advanced

Wouldn't mind a quick 'check-up' (think 10-H 13/13 content) as I havn't played Prot since 5.1

The first thing that jumps out to me is that you have 533 average and 518 equipped. Obviously you were a previous spec before, it is highly likely you have some pieces from your previous MS that would be better for you as prot, even if they are not optimal. Just imagine how much more stamina and armor there would be on a 530 chest/belt compared to yours and a 530 neck over yours. Even if your previous spec was holy, a lot of those intellect pieces will probably be better than what you have now.

Otherwise, not much to say about your gearing with what you have. Gemming looks solid.

I would personally have enchanted Dancing Steel for 10 man, stamina on chest, tank leg enchant and +50 mastery instead of parry on shield but that is just my cup of tea.
Reforges looks good at first glance.

[Promdates]

For a single target boss fight, you should go with Battle Healer, Alabaster Shield, Focused Shield for "best dps". Focused Wrath, while great sub 20%, is actually less of a dps increase than Alabaster Shield.

[Deleted]

For a single target boss fight, you should go with Battle Healer, Alabaster Shield, Focused Shield for "best dps". Focused Wrath, while great sub 20%, is actually less of a dps increase than Alabaster Shield.

How do you come to this conclusion?

In my opinion it depends on fight and how you use the glyphs. I found Final Wrath to be a significantly higher dps increase on most fights compared to alabaster shield in T15.

I mean, just go through the boss fights.

Jin'Rokh - FW>AS
Horridon Boss Duty - FW>AS
Council - FW>AS if 2 tanking, AS>FW if solo tanking
Tortos - AS>FW if solo/bat tanking, FW>AS if on boss duty
Megaera - FW>AS
Ji-Kun - FW>AS
Durumu - FW>AS
Primordius - A bit tricky. FW=AS depending on how you devide the tanking
Animus - AS helps more on the adds, but if you are having problem with nuking down the boss quickly I would go FW>AS
Qon - FW > AS
Twins - I havent really tested it since I usually run with both FW and AS here. I would still say FW>AS for sure here.
LS - FW>AS unless you are abusing adds on you for vengeance, gc procs and AS procs.

While AS looks good on paper, in T15, FW just demolishes it on most fights. Solo tanking Council and Tortos bat duty are the only semi legit reasons to go AS>FW, maybe primordius too.

[Promdates]

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...718672#p718672

Just to show some numbers there, that's what Theck had come up with just over a month ago for the glyphs. Having said that, there is more time where AS will give you a benefit over FW. That's not saying that FW isn't a bad glyph, I will use it depending on the fight. I'm not certain about your guild, but mine doesn't really spend too much time in the execute phase of a fight. So FW doesn't show much more of a benefit than using AS. Personally, I'm not a fan of the AS glyph, but it does have some merit.

Having said that, I only use one of those glyphs on any given fight as it is. As for the majority of the fights I'm glyphing Divine Protection and using it as a mini-cooldown on a regular basis, for some mitigation and to proc my 4p bonus more often.

[Deleted]

Again, not a problem with thecks math, there is a problem with how people are using it. While what you say is true in an optimal world of tanking, somebody forgot to tell the bosses to obide by the parameters set in thecks simulations. You need to use some common sense.

Some things you are forgetting:

How the glyphs scale with stats: FW scales with haste, I am not sure about the exact haste values Theck runes with, but considering that he often uses fairly low haste levels and that sim was done with 522 item level, it is fair to assume that in a realistic situation you are going to have far more haste than what is use in those sims. Alabaster shield do not scale with haste at all.
Alabaster shield scales with mastery, but if you are aiming for max dps, you are haste stacking either way.
Alabaster shield also scales negatively with strength, dodge and parry, the more avoided attacks, the less blocks you get due to how the new combat table works. What this means is that if you have trinkets that proc str, like Nairobi often expresses how strong he feels the double str proc is from Feather + Spark giving insane amount of parry, those insane amounts of parries, give you a lot less procs of AS.

Add this all together and you got that in a more realistic gearing scenario (more haste and higher item level), that tips the odds a lot into FW favor.

What you also need to consider is how the glyphs interacts. On a lot of fights you get the oppurtunity to use the execute HW several times during a fight, several fights also have very tight last phases (i.e. tank vengeance peaks in the final phase). In the same fashion some fights you get execution range several times, some fights have artificially longer execute ranges, like Durumu. Durumu initiates a life drain after half the fight, which makes the execution part of the fight actually be closer to 25-30% of the fight rather than 20%.

Also, almost no boss abide to the magical 1.5s swing timer. Realistically speaking, that wont happen on any boss. Step one, say you have a tank swap fight, suddenly you will only get hit once every 3 seconds. FW does not care about that, but that immediately lowers the value AS by 50%. This is the reason why AS is so overated by many people including yourself. They forget how much it is affected by the swing timers of the bosses. Take a boss like Ji-Kun for example. I checked my hits taken during the fight, using a standard 2 tank strategy with me both starting and finishing to fight (so I hogged a few more auto hits than the other tank, about 1:0.9 ratio I would say).
Ji-Kun did not hit me once per 2 seconds, no not once per 3 seconds, not even once per 4, I got hit once per 6 seconds, yes, once per six seconds. That effectively lowers the value of AS by 75%.
Now Ji-Kun is an extreme example since he stops his melee hits to cast Caw, Feed Young, Down Draft and Talon Rake. But the same can be found around the set of T15 bosses, even those without any real cast times often cancels there auto attack animation by casting some instant cast.
All of this extremely hurts AS.

If you just go through the fights.

Jin'Rokh - Stops his attack animation for all of his casts, stops attacking for Throw, stops attacking for the storm. Tank swap, all in all he got a swing timer of about 2s, double tanks means each tanks get hit on average every 4 seconds.
Horridon - Stops attacking for Swipe, Charge on the door. As most paladins tanks are 100% on the boss, you wont get procs from adds.
Council - Only frost guy has reliable auto attacks, so if you are on him 100% of the time AS is decent, but you also get multiple execute ranges on this fight.
Tortos - Stops autoattacks for Stomp, Quake and Breath, unless you are tanking bats, I would not go AS over FW. If you are tanking bats the other way around of course.
Megaera - Stops autoattacks for breaths and rampages, however the heads you are not killing gets increased attack speed. Depends a bit on which head you are tanking. You get multiple execute ranges on this fight which is nice.
Ji-Kun - Explained above the insane swing timer on this boss
Durumu - Stops auto attacks for most of his casts, even his instant casts, do not auto attack during the maze phase. Even if you are using 1 tank this fight is horrible for AS. FW gets improved by the fact you spend more than 20% of his health in execute range due to life drain.
Primordius - Never bothered doing research on this fight as I run with both AS and FW. Still think FW pulls ahead considering you most often use 2 tanks here.
Animus - I would say AS helps more on the adds however FW helps more if you are on boss duty. On heroic AS is probably the better choice
Iron Qon - I could consider AS for heroic here, but for normal I would not consider it. Of course solo tanking.
Twins - Crappy swing timers on this fight aswell. You should be using both FW and AS either way though. If you are
Lei-Shen - Crappy swing timer, a lot of channeling casts, stopped auto attacks, often 2 tanked, unless you are abusing the fight like I am for ranks by spawning adds in the transition + leaving them alive for P2 and P3 for vengeace/GC+AS procs, I would not bother with AS over FW.

All in all, the fights I consider using AS over FW would be Horridon if you are on adds (why would you be on adds?), Tortos if you are on bats, solo tanking IQ. The fights I mark as a "possible" would maybe be Megaera if you are going for rankings by sitting on the head with max stacks entire fight + pulling shale spiders from the trash and solo tanking council.



If we then instead look at how it works in practice. Lets say I have 200k Attack Power average, which is about 150 vengeance. My Holy Wrath would hit for 186300. My SotR for 124200. That means each HW used in execute range means 93150 damage increase and each AS proc would be 24840 damage increase. My current live chance of getting a block is 21% (70% of attacks go through avoidance and 30% block). Considering the strength procs on my trinkets and dancing steel + double pot I think it is fair to tune this down to 20%, and that is being generous.

Lets first check a fairytale situation where we spend exactly 20% of the fight in execute range and I get hit every 1.5 seconds. I would block an attack every 7.5 seconds on average which means that the AS glyph would give me an increase of 3312 damage. My current HW cast time is at about 6.2 seconds, and during execute phase I use HW on cooldown. All in all that would translate to an increase of 3004 damage. This is slightly below the AS glyph. Does not take a genius to figure out that since no fight got a real 1.5 second swing timer that AS instantly falls behind on any fight where you use 2 tanks or the boss does not have a regular swing timer(pretty much every boss in existance).

The only time you should use AS glyph over FW glyph is if you have multiple enemies on you or if the fight lacks an execute range.This happens in T15 when tanking adds on Horridon, Tanking adds on Tortos, Megaera heads (arguably), Animus adds, last phase of Iron Qon HC, as well as if you cheat some fights for ranks by pulling trash before the boss to the boss (like megaera) or spawning adds intentionally on the boss (Lei-Shen)
Also, for progression, the boss execute range is often the hard part, so having higher dps there is often wise

As for sure got merits on some fights, but FW is superior on more fights.
A bit of common sense gets you a long way.

[Nillo]

The thing is that on some of these fights you may want to consider unglyphing FS rather than AS especially on heroic.
Also the Sand guy on council also does plenty of autoattacks if you actually bother to interrupt him.

[Deleted]

What do you use for debuff-removing, for Horridon for example do you use any macros to apply HoP then remove aura shortly afterwards?