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  1. #201
    So people think subs would go up if they make the game "harder" and less causal friendly? I dont know in what world you live in, but that would only lead to even more sub loss.

  2. #202
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    That can't be true though... Because the number of raiding guilds was much higher in TBC than it is today in MoP -and- back then raidguilds were all 25m raidguilds too. %-wise a much bigger part of the playerbase was part of a raidguild back in TBC than today in MoP. The numbers we have from MoP are indicating a rapid decline of raidguilds instead. (Probably due to LFR offering a decent substitute.)
    Raid guilds were in a decline long before LFR. I still remember the speeches of our guild master explaining why 25man declined so hard in particular in the beginning of Cata. Old players grow up and can't commit anymore and I have the distinct feeling that the new generation of gamers doesn't like "scheduled playtime" all that much. They rather want a game they can pick up at a moments notice.

    Which is why TBC sustained an 8m player base. It would still be growing strong with those design philosophies
    I sincerely doubt that the casuals would have done another one of those "yo dawg you can grind heroics all x-pack" expansions.
    While I agree that they should have found other ways to engage casuals than to implement this abomination of target dummy rape like ... thing and call it "raiding for the masses", I don't have any good Ideas toward that end, and they probably didn't have some either.

    Problem I have, as stated before, is when flavor of the month game players flock to a new game and insist WoW did everything right by making things accessible off the bat to every man, his dog and his dogs fleas.
    Well WoW DID do that right. Just because you can access Heroic raids doesn't mean you can kill them mean bosses.

  3. #203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    It's probably true that the subloss can't be fixed. They already said they expected even more losses than last time in the next quarterly report. I guess it's just a matter of time to milk the cow as much as possible before it's dead, ergo the 5.4 itemshop...
    The sub loss never needed fixing, it happens with EVERY game and was inevitable in WoW. There's more to sub losses than just "OMFG IM A PRO RAIDER N IM QUIT COS OF LFR :<<" there's so so many reasons for people unsubscribing, and it's not a fair assumption that it's because the game is "bad". Only have to read threads on here to see that people quit for the most retarded reasons.

    Also, we have no idea what the item shop is going to be, and what will be in it. It might also be for the East only, with the game going F2P as the market over there is dominated by F2P games. But even if we get the item shop in the West, I would hardly consider it milking the cow, if they wanted to do that we'd of seen it years ago with pets and mounts added more frequently.

    While it's not the most popular opinion, cos hating is the "in" thing, Blizzard (as in the team behind the game) do actually care about the game still and you can see how passionate the dev team is with the increase in patches and nifty little things they have been adding. The game is better now that is has ever been, just a shame some people are incapable of adapting to change and unable to "move on" at the same time.
    Last edited by mmocbd02567a48; 2013-07-07 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #204
    Personally, I never liked Blizzard's whole "people have addons, so let's reduce permitted reaction times to mechanics" philosophy. Given the latency I had at some of the places I lived in my time raiding, in some cases it simply meant either cheese mechanics to get around them, or I'd either have 0.2 of a second to react to a 1 second mechanic, or get a slight lag spike and be a certain death. This forced me into more casual guilds at certain times. That wasn't making the boss any harder, with addons it's always been a matter of "that mechanic that does that thing is happening in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 - hit that defensive/NO MORE DOTS/move now/hit extra action button". It was simply making latency a gate. Not an issue if you have a server in your country, sucks to not.

  5. #205
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Actually the people infecting WoW are the LFR heroes.
    I don't know about you, but I quit raiding 25 man in MV, did LFR till ToT, then returned to the raiding scene despite having killed Lei Shen on LFR. Let me tell you, the LFR experience isn't even close to just normal, much less heroic. I enjoy the fun challenge of raiding again with a team.

    What you're seeing is not LFR taking away from raiding but simply a game that is aging and less and less new players because, let's face it, since it's had 30,000,000+ over the last 8 years there isn't exactly a giant pool of new people to pull from. Eventually every game slowly begins a downfall.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    It's not wrong to feel good about what you've accomplished, until you start thinking that other people getting to do it (or something similar) undermines your experience somehow. All that does is show that the reason you're concerned with your achievements is to look down at others. And when I say you, I'm referring to raiders and the so called hardcore crowd as a whole, not necessarily you.
    But if everyone can get those achivements, then they stop being special is my point. It's not about looking down on others, it is just having something most people don't. Just because someone doesn't have something I do, doesn't mean that I want to look down on him, I just want him to recognize my achivement.

    Raid guilds were in a decline long before LFR. I still remember the speeches of our guild master explaining why 25man declined so hard in particular in the beginning of Cata. Old players grow up and can't commit anymore and I have the distinct feeling that the new generation of gamers doesn't like "scheduled playtime" all that much. They rather want a game they can pick up at a moments notice.
    25 man guilds declined simply because everyone went 10 man when Cata came out, not because everyone "grew up." Raiding in general has declined because of the increased difficulty of normal raids as well as the ease of LFR. It has very little to do with people growing up. Some people stop raiding for various reasons, but there used to be new people coming in to take their spot. Now those people just do LFR.

  7. #207
    When people complain Blizzard tends to listen. At least when the complaint is legitimate. A legitimate complaint is "it's hard to level alts in mop" and "Too many dailies" so they release tokens to double valor for all characters on your account once one reaches revered.

    A complaint that is not legitimate would include, "If everyone experiences the content I don't feel like I am awesome anymore." Don't expect to be catered to just because you complain.

    The entire problem with LFR boils down to wanting to exclude players from content. It doesn't hand out the same gear. It does not steal potential raiders, either they can't schedule time or they don't like raid guilds, you either don't want them or they don't want you. Someone may poop in the life pool by going ask but the rest have to carry them which means the majority are earning their gear. Lfr doesn't teach raid mechanics? Then why do we tell raid members to practice attune meant disks, hurricane alley and Dorummu's maze in LFR instead of scheduled raid time? Oh because it teaches raid mechanics.

  8. #208
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    It's not wrong to feel good about what you've accomplished, until you start thinking that other people getting to do it (or something similar) undermines your experience somehow. All that does is show that the reason you're concerned with your achievements is to look down at others.
    Sorry but that's just basic human competitiveness. Peeps that are special snowflakes and do stuff others can't do (e.g. kill that badass mammoth for the tribe) get to procreate more often. It's virtually the same in modern society. If you're rich you don't necessarily need to be sexy to get the attention of the other gender. :<

    It's a bit much to ask for something primal like that to not be carried over into activities like gaming.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Sorry but that's just basic human competitiveness. Peeps that are special snowflakes and do stuff others can't do (e.g. kill that badass mammoth for the tribe) get to procreate more often. It's virtually the same in modern society. If you're rich you don't necessarily need to be sexy to get the attention of the other gender. :<

    It's a bit much to ask for something primal like that to not be carried over into activities like gaming.
    It's also primal to smack a woman over the head and drag her to your cave and make her give birth to your off spring but in a modern society this behavior is not tolerated. There are tons of players that are hardcore raiders who manage to enjoy raiding without a superiority complex or the need to ruin other people's fun, that's the kind of player you should aspire to become.

  10. #210
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    There are tons of players that are hardcore raiders who manage to enjoy raiding without a superiority complex or the need to ruin other people's fun, that's the kind of player you should aspire to become.
    I know. I'm one of those raiders (I wouldn't count me as hardcore though).
    I dislike LFR because of it's mechanics not because it allows other players to see the content.

  11. #211
    WoW has far too many issues and simply put, "design choices" to be fixed anymore, for me.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabrix32 View Post
    they are losing 20-25% of the players with every new expansion. How is that not broken?
    It's called product life span. You can only try to make the decline as slow as possible.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Hjelpen View Post
    So people think subs would go up if they make the game "harder" and less causal friendly? I dont know in what world you live in, but that would only lead to even more sub loss.
    Of course it would, no one's saying it wouldn't. Unless you mean more sub losses than we have now because that's where I disagree.

    The difference is hard content (that is gated by skill) leaves you with more satisfied players in my opinion. Always something to work for and when you actually accomplish something, even minor, it's more rewarding than doing LFR while watcing The Walking Dead or making dinner.

    There are players of course who quit at the sight of that sort of thing. But fuck them. They probably wouldn't be the ones to commit to a game for long anyways. And personally I'd be willing to cut 1 million subs if 7 million subs are happier rather than appease 1 million subs and have 7 million sour subs.

  14. #214
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    It's also primal to smack a woman over the head and drag her to your cave and make her give birth to your off spring but in a modern society this behavior is not tolerated. There are tons of players that are hardcore raiders who manage to enjoy raiding without a superiority complex or the need to ruin other people's fun, that's the kind of player you should aspire to become.
    Yet that's not how reality looks like at the moment. Casuals should also aspire to become better, yet blizz caved in. Question now is why blizz wont cave in to those who promote hostile but healthy competition.

  15. #215
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    I'm a little lost on what you think needs 'fixing'.

  16. #216
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Question now is why blizz wont cave in to those who promote hostile but healthy competition.
    Because they tried that already and got burned by it.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOluck View Post
    Just because people are running LFR isn't because it is fun or engaging. It is because it is the only means to realisticly progress your character if you are not in a normal/hardmode guild. In vanilla wow people had all sorts of means to progress there characters because items actually felt powerful when you obtained them, even from a dungeon. Casual players could, for example, upgrade the dungeon sets to epic quality with long/intense quest chains that gave people something to do and wasn't drool on your keyboard content like LFR.

    The world felt larger because flying mounts and rediculas amounts of portals to every location didn't exist giving people a reason to go out into the world. Dungeons were long crawls that many enjoyed as it made there accomplishments seem even sweeter when they obtained them (Blue gear from dungeons felt alot more epic then LFR gear even if they were blue in color but not in spirit). Some people may not like attunements but at least the developers were trying to engage the player in exploring the world with non linear questing, as opposed to the on rails questing that we have now.

    The game was based more on the world experience and RPG elements of building a character (talent points) then looking for that quick fix from a gear slot machine that is LFR.

    The game today is a game of menu's and repeating the same content over and over with little sense of progression where as in Vanilla and BC everyone felt liek they were progressing at there own pace regardless of who saw the content right when it was release (if someone hasnt seen content just because it wasnt new when they cleared it doesnt make it any less new for the player). All groups of people could run something that was tailored to them that wasn't stream lined like LFR. Heroic Dungeons , Tier 0.5, long dungeon Crawls, Karazhan for the friend/family guilds , SSC for the more hardcore etc etc.

    Now the game has de-evolved from a classic RPG dungeon crawl/build your character/explore the world , to sit in town, open a menu and queue for content or run 4 different difficulties of the EXACT SAME RAID TIER causing burning out. This is what happens when you create fast food consumed type content.

    The RPG aspect of progression in this game is Dead. Enjoy your boring epic saturated content that gives no sense of accomplish to the majority of the player base.

    Blizzard has confused players with limited time to play with being inherently bad and thus giving them boring content akin to LFR.

    Would Zelda as fun if he could kill Ganon by avoiding to hunting for pieces of the mastersword by simply farming valor for a few weeks and buying it from a merchant? People want a journey when obtaining gear and progressing there character and the current model rapes players of that experience.
    I love this post ! Bring back the epic feelings of accomplishment and adventure!

  18. #218
    WoW has gotten far too repetitive now. Even more so than it was before. MOP has had the worst grind in WoW history, but 5.2/5.3 has helped reduce it. But their way late on that.

    Pretty sure that's one of the reasons why a lot of people are unsubbing.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumblez View Post
    This very much. People say 'there are more avenues to play than ever before'. Partly true, but they also took many avenues away. And if there was so much to do, why are so many complaining of being bored
    You must be the player with the least knowledge of the game ever?
    What avenues did they take away apart from class quests wich is again END LEVEL content?
    You seriously hasnt noticed that wow follows the sheme: level to max - start content and everything else is just there to level?

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    Have you done it yourself? it was ONE(!) guy .... your logic applied would mean that after one man stepped onto the moon noone else want to do it ....

    Quote Originally Posted by wombinator04 View Post
    WoW has gotten far too repetitive now. Even more so than it was before.
    Tyr's Hand wants to have a word with you, sir!

  20. #220
    The chances are 0%.WoW was,is and will be the same.For 8 years they couldn't balance it,not gona happen now

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