I always wanted only to see the content

[Seefer]

You mean they put in LFR and subs continued to go down for a game 8 years old with lots of online competition? It must be that feature you don't like thats driving everyone away! Its the content you do like that keeps them and the one you don't like that drives them away because the whole world plays the game the same way you do! Its not just wonky math, its fantasy math!

Every single subscription loss has its own reason for subscription loss and its a diseased way of thinking, and very self centered, to think that everyone of those losses, or even a majority, are over a game style that you don't like. Its an absolutely ridiculous way of thinking. You are special because you play this way but oh, everyone thinks the same way you do because they all play the same way you do.

There are 4.5 million individual reasons why subscriptions were lost, and the majority of them are in Asia where they don't play under the same rules or ways of thinking as their western counter parts. People grew up and got jobs/lives, there are two dozen MMo's out there, 3 dozen small social mmo's and hundreds of online console games. Wow got huge because of a generation of young people who embraced the social aspect of the gaming technology and now those gamers have gained adult lives with adult responcibilities. Others have gone to play other games because they are burned out on wow because its absolutely normal to stop playing the same video game after 8 years.

In fact a lot of people burn out on the game because they can't handle changes in their environments and it doesn't matter what Blizzard does its bad. A lot of these people will pick out anything to attribute to leaving the game, including opening up the games content to all of its player base rather than allowing a few to cherry pick the player base.

LFR isn't going anywhere and you can cry about it all you want on the forums that you want, the truth of the matter is Blizzard doesn't want the minority of the player base dictating who gets to experience the end game.

You cry that Blizzard is only thinking about the money when it comes to not excluding the casuals, well it is a business. If you don't take care of the business there is no MMO. Being exclusionary is awesome and all when you live in a fantasy world with no real world consequences but in the real world where a player base pays the bills you have to take care of your majority before you even consider your Minority. The Raiders are lucky Blizzard decided to add LFR to the game because obviously some bean counter called them out on it and instead of dumping Raiding all togeather they created the LFR system to feed all of their customers rather than not feeding the raider at all.

Blizzard has repeatedly said LFR is going no where, and you know why? Because they actually have numbers, unlike everyone else on these boards, and those numbers are going to ensure that Raiding stays in the game, including LFR.

Oooooooooooh so it's COINCIDENCE that subs started plummeting when LFR was introduced? Oh and you blame the Asian market? Yeah they are more grindy and hardcore than the hand holding coddle me US market, oh and if you believe everything Blizzards publicity machine tells you I feel sorry for you.

[Otimus]

Oooooooooooh so it's COINCIDENCE that subs started plummeting when LFR was introduced? Oh and you blame the Asian market? Yeah they are more grindy and hardcore than the hand holding coddle me US market, oh and if you believe everything Blizzards publicity machine tells you I feel sorry for you.

Why would it really matter one way or the other, I mean, if prior to LFR, barely anyone did any raiding? I mean, that's what I don't get here. You're saying that an activity not many of the players ever bothered with suddenly becoming more accessible is causing people to leave? I just don't get the logic. PLEASE try and explain the logic. How does that work?


It'd be like if Halo 5 had 50% less sales than Halo 4, and Halo 5 didn't have the Legendary Difficulty in it, and someone said "See, it sold less because the legendary difficulty is gone.", when it's a known fact that very few people play on said difficulty in that game :x


It'd be something if some large percentile of players raided prior or something, but they didn't. They never have. In their most sizable, which was at the highest nerf of ICC, along with some of the highest subscriber numbers, all that factored in, still only a minority of players touched raids, compared to the base users at large. So, I just don't get where this logic stems from, and I'd just like the logic explained to me, without lashing out, without insults, I just don't get it. To me, it just seems like correlation without causation, because there's zero logic to it other than pointing out some fact of the matter of the game you like changing.


ALSO.

Subs started plummeting with Cata. They didn't STOP plummeting till LFR was added in Cata, along with the 4.3 5 mans, soooo. Whatever. You're pretty clearly just cherry picking what you want to fight about because you don't like it.

[camicio]

Oooooooooooh so it's COINCIDENCE that subs started plummeting when LFR was introduced?

Yes.

I don't think anything more needs to be said, but just in case, coincidence is not causality.

[Dormie]

Yes.

I don't think anything more needs to be said, but just in case, coincidence is not causality.

We don't have enough 'proof' to be talking about this if your just gonna make excuses for anything not written in stone.

[Sengiratolom]

LFR related to actual raids in the same way as driving though a petting zoo with a tank and having candy&toys thrown @ you if you manage to name the animals you see, relates to a safari.

Its prime purpose is lore availability, secondary purpose is to have a more shots at items (if low ilvl) such as tier parts, weapons and trinkets to fill in gaps for other rng sources. third use is to get entry level gear for alts. ToT lfr added a 4th purpose= pets.

Sure 5+ people is a raid group by definition, but saying that everything you do whilst in that group is an actual raid is stretching it. They enter an instance that contains a raid (N&H) but enter it in a mode that even says it isn't a raid, as by doing it you still are "Looking for raid", hence it only shows you the graphic and lore parts of it, but doesn't let you experience the raid.

Raid= bosses (and adds, DA I look @ you) have their normal base abilities intact and the impact thereof (some added or altered on hc), and the ability to gain achievements on bosses, outside of the "complete wing X of the instance". (hopefully flex raid will have the actual mechanics and meaningfulness in place, not the versions used by the intoxicated remains of bosses where things that are supposed to hurt, merely tickle, and stuff that is supposed to kill mostly doesn't do more then scratching you, and doesn't allow you to best a boss with 5 ppl after the remaining 20 died on 70%)

There is a reason the glory of the x raider achieves require you to do the actual raids, in 5.4 they can even be done in flex as the heroic kills are no longer part of the meta, another hint that lfr does not equal raiding, not even by blizzards definition.

LFR= as you correctly put it, seeing content
Raid= experience it

I realize that some ppl simply don't have the time to do actual raiding, and as such have lfr as only option to see the place/bosses, for those it is a good way to get the lore and be somewhat connected to the current patches instance, if you however do find more time and a group that can be online @ the same times as you, raiding is worth a try.

[Deleted]

Except LFR is not real raiding, you think you are raiding, but deep inside you know you aren't

Well it is raiding. It's not boxing, it's not surfing, it's not singing, it's not dancing. It's raiding, lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Oooooooooooh so it's COINCIDENCE that subs started plummeting when LFR was introduced? Oh and you blame the Asian market? Yeah they are more grindy and hardcore than the hand holding coddle me US market, oh and if you believe everything Blizzards publicity machine tells you I feel sorry for you.

The sub drops have nothing to do with LFR, and to suggest that makes you look stupid. Did you completely miss all the "QQ I'm quitting due to PvP / dailies / low droprates / bots" threads? While there are "QQ I HATE LFR" threads, nobody seems to be quitting because of it just crying over it.

[Seefer]

Why would it really matter one way or the other, I mean, if prior to LFR, barely anyone did any raiding? I mean, that's what I don't get here. You're saying that an activity not many of the players ever bothered with suddenly becoming more accessible is causing people to leave? I just don't get the logic. PLEASE try and explain the logic. How does that work?


It'd be like if Halo 5 had 50% less sales than Halo 4, and Halo 5 didn't have the Legendary Difficulty in it, and someone said "See, it sold less because the legendary difficulty is gone.", when it's a known fact that very few people play on said difficulty in that game :x


It'd be something if some large percentile of players raided prior or something, but they didn't. They never have. In their most sizable, which was at the highest nerf of ICC, along with some of the highest subscriber numbers, all that factored in, still only a minority of players touched raids, compared to the base users at large. So, I just don't get where this logic stems from, and I'd just like the logic explained to me, without lashing out, without insults, I just don't get it. To me, it just seems like correlation without causation, because there's zero logic to it other than pointing out some fact of the matter of the game you like changing.


ALSO.

Subs started plummeting with Cata. They didn't STOP plummeting till LFR was added in Cata, along with the 4.3 5 mans, soooo. Whatever. You're pretty clearly just cherry picking what you want to fight about because you don't like it.

People have pointed out the logic REPEATEDLY but you guys just sit there a pour out the excuses like it was going out of style, so why bother? But for luls I will say it again..............subscribers were on the increase during the times you say "People didn't raid" and there was LESS to do for people who didn't raid or pvp, now the invent of LFR and voila subs tank, sorry but I don't believe in coincidence nor do I buy into Blizzards PR bullshit, as for your statement on Crapaclysm? THE WHOLE EXPANSION WAS A STINKFEST! The dungeons weren't too hard, they just required a crap load of CC, they were TEDIOUS not difficult in the least, NOBODY liked them not even people like me!

[nekobaka]

Why would it really matter one way or the other, I mean, if prior to LFR, barely anyone did any raiding? I mean, that's what I don't get here. You're saying that an activity not many of the players ever bothered with suddenly becoming more accessible is causing people to leave? I just don't get the logic. PLEASE try and explain the logic. How does that work?

Yes an activity that not many bother with in the first place and now being left it with it being the main gear pathway and long term focus of endgame and you are wondering what the issue is. Just because it is easily accessible and is popular doesnt mean that everyone actually enjoys it. A lot of subs lost in MoP are due to a lack of engaging content for casuals. Perhaps these casuals found Cata far more enjoyable or want something other than LFR like new five mans that was killed to make larger raids due to LFR.

Subs started plummeting with Cata. They didn't STOP plummeting till LFR was added in Cata, along with the 4.3 5 mans, soooo. Whatever. You're pretty clearly just cherry picking what you want to fight about because you don't like it.

Subscribers was always leaving and the rate of new players to losses didnt cross until WotLK and the lines went on their way. LFR and a plethora of mindless grinds isnt keeping casuals engaged ether.

The dungeons weren't too hard, they just required a crap load of CC, they were TEDIOUS not difficult in the least, NOBODY liked them not even people like me!

I never did find them tedious or there to be a need for a crap load of CC unless the whole group was in greens. Now BC needed a crap load of CC and far more careful pulling and use of LoS. I would say even Classic dungeons would be far more tedious than Cata dungeons. Cata was mostly streamlined in their design especially if you look at the revamps.

[khalltusk]

We don't have enough 'proof' to be talking about this if your just gonna make excuses for anything not written in stone.

Same can be said for the argument for LFR causing subs to drop. Glad you agree neither side has any proof.

A lot of the issues in MOP which the devs have pointed out on were Dailies and the reps locked behind them and the general grind of MOP compared to cata. Along with its ALT unfriendly nature at the start. You can see steps have been taken to improve catch up mechanics and bringing more small group content into the game with scenarios (which are pretty good in fairness)

The raids in mop from what I have done so far have all been pretty good. I do think theres a slight lack of 5man content but we do have a ton of scenarios which helps to some degree. LFR may harm some of the playerbase by letting them clear the content too quickly but its a hard one to balance. If you make it too hard players won't attempt it, I think a good way to deal with it just simply delay it slightly like they are doing but maybe by another week or so at most. Heroic should be available to raid from week 1 rather than requiring you to clear the raid before hand IMO.

As for Cata dungeons they were a lot harder than Wraths and it directly caused harm to a large amount of the player base. I personally enjoyed the difficulty but others didn't and I can understand why. They were on par with TBC dungeons (slightly less hard) it was not until the last major patch that the dungeons got back to wrath level.

[Pull My Finger]

Is anyone really THAT dumb to believe that LFR causes subs to DROP?

Seriously, guys, I'm aware that funny things happen when gamers get pasisonate over things, but this should really be too over the top even for the greenest of you. Think for a second. Does it really, really seem plausible? Who the hell QUITS because of LFR? It's completely unlikely, nonsensical.

Certain people naturally don't like LFR and disapprove of it. But it's completely crazy to assume that it affects anyone THAT much that it makes them quit the game. It's nonsense! You don't quit the game over something that's just there. People quit games if they suddenly have to do something they don't like. Noone QUITS because of ONE feature that they don't even use. Be real for a second. Try thinking like a normal, reasonable person.

Just think of what LFR does. It offers people additional content they wouldn't be doing otherwise. That doesn't drive anyone away. On the other hand, it doesn't interfere with you doing the same stuff in-game you always did. As much as you like to cry your heart out over it from some misplaced idealistic perspective - it has zero to none impact on your personal in-game perspective and daily routine. Something like that just makes you repeat useless banter day after day, but it doesn't make you quit.

LFR is one of those things you constantly complain about, but it sure didn't make you leave. You are still here, after all. Continuing to do real raiding, unlike the bads who afk their way to their loot pinatas, yadda yadda, you know your lyrics. I know it supports your fantasy to make yourself believe that the outraged reputable players are leaving the game in MASSES in disgust and protest over the travesty that is LFR. But just pause to think for a second, take a deep breath and let some of the oxygen reach the brainstem, and you should realize the nonsensical nature of this whole idea. Don't be children, for Chrissake.

[Deleted]

People have pointed out the logic REPEATEDLY but you guys just sit there a pour out the excuses like it was going out of style, so why bother? But for luls I will say it again..............subscribers were on the increase during the times you say "People didn't raid" and there was LESS to do for people who didn't raid or pvp, now the invent of LFR and voila subs tank, sorry but I don't believe in coincidence nor do I buy into Blizzards PR bullshit, as for your statement on Crapaclysm? THE WHOLE EXPANSION WAS A STINKFEST! The dungeons weren't too hard, they just required a crap load of CC, they were TEDIOUS not difficult in the least, NOBODY liked them not even people like me!

There wasn't less to do, back ion those days it tooks weeks or months to level to cap.

Most players never got a max level toon. When subs were highest, most players were wandering around until level 40 or so, when they quit. it just took them ages to get to that point. Now they get to level 40 and quit, but it takes them no time at all.

Because raiders moaned, and because raiders got whatever they want in wow until recently (now it's just 90% of what they want) the levelling process was made laughably easy and fast so that raiders could have masses of alts to raid with. If you want to go back to the TBC/vanilla model of wow, you'd also have to content yourself with a 21 days /played per toon to hit cap.

[nekobaka]

Is anyone really THAT dumb to believe that LFR causes subs to DROP?

Seriously, guys, I'm aware that funny things happen when gamers get pasisonate over things, but this should really be too over the top even for the greenest of you. Think for a second. Does it really, really seem plausible? Who the hell QUITS because of LFR? It's completely unlikely, nonsensical.

The idea that a player directly quits over it is silly. There are many changes in MoP with a lot of it being the overall trivialization of content targeted at casuals and part of that is LFR. Right now the only thing we really know is the lack of engaging casual oriented content is the leading cause for the loss of subscribers and Blizzard is trying to target casuals who are looking for engaging content with harder while still casual friendly content with Flex mode. Blizzards one difficulty for all casuals is obviously not working. Such a move is just proving that just because someone is casual doesnt mean they are bad and are incapable of moving out of a fire. Dang Blizzard got "casuals" to move around a maze.

Because raiders moaned, and because raiders got whatever they want in wow until recently (now it's just 90% of what they want) the levelling process was made laughably easy and fast so that raiders could have masses of alts to raid with. If you want to go back to the TBC/vanilla model of wow, you'd also have to content yourself with a 21 days /played per toon to hit cap.

Because players with jobs and a family complained about the grind. Both nonraiding and raiding casuals complained about the grinds. Casuals said that the grinds was one of the core reasons why raiding was inaccessible for them and Blizzard listened. One of the reasons behind the 10/25 man lockouts being combined was because of casual raiders who complained about feeling left behind if they didnt do both or that they felt like their 10 man group had to run 25 man.

[TyrantWave]

subscribers were on the increase during the times you say "People didn't raid"

I didn't own a house when subs were increasing. As soon as I got my house, subs started dropping.

Sorry guys, I guess I killed WoW!

[Mesovr]

People have pointed out the logic REPEATEDLY but you guys just sit there a pour out the excuses like it was going out of style, so why bother? But for luls I will say it again..............subscribers were on the increase during the times you say "People didn't raid" and there was LESS to do for people who didn't raid or pvp, now the invent of LFR and voila subs tank, sorry but I don't believe in coincidence nor do I buy into Blizzards PR bullshit, as for your statement on Crapaclysm? THE WHOLE EXPANSION WAS A STINKFEST! The dungeons weren't too hard, they just required a crap load of CC, they were TEDIOUS not difficult in the least, NOBODY liked them not even people like me!

It does not take much brain to figure out that the most Popular MMO would be gaining subs during the time when the MMO as a genre blew up.

[lavaalamp]

We don't have to,
-Study our class extensively for optimal performance,
-Study each fight for optimal performance,
-Try to orchestrate our optimal rotation in a stressful progress environment,
-Wipe for hours to kill a single boss for some reason(yaay so fun),
-Try to not fail on memorizing/reaching/assigning keybinds for each of your main characters,
-Work extensively to perform decent while still being able to pay attention to boss mechanics, without all that "friends are depending on my performance to not wipe for another hour" stress,
-Level x number of professions or do other forms of extremely boring stuff(such as dailies) to get more gold to spend on enchants, gems, flasks, pots or gear that gets changed constantly as you get better drops,
-Get into arguements over numbers, such as dps or healing meters,

to experience the content now.

As I said before, this might be easy, monotonous for experienced gamers; but I always have a hard time to explain to them that this whole raiding ritual is no where near "fun" for a casual gamer, or an inexperienced player who has no intention/time to get to your level of experience, it is tiresome and stressful for the majority of the player base. As a gamer(I love this great hobby), I can say that World of Warcraft is way too harder than a single player fantasy game, and I, we, love playing both. But I cannot sacrifice my time and I don't have the interest to adjust to damn video game I pay to play every month, it has to adjust to me, if my views are shared by most of its target audience. Considering LFR, LFD, new talent system etc, I can safely say that they are vastly shared.

gathering gold for materials for raiding is very simple. i can play the game "casually" and earn a full 10man of raiding flasks/feasts/Enchants...you act like this game is HUGE time sink. it's not at all. i raid twice a week heroic modes and all i have to play is 2-4 hours to prepare for each raid and im fine....you sir aren't even trying, or giving any initiative to raid/play the game. please just quit the game before you encourage the devs to destroy the game. you are the poison.

[Xucuroz]

Everything has its merits and its place. LFR, Normal and Heroic.

Can't ever understand people who don't just enjoy whats appropriate for them. I'm personally somewhere in-between Normal and Heroic. I also use LFR to gear and play my alts a bit, something i'd probably never be able to do without it. Sure i could spend ages with groups in Open Raid, but the vast majority of them suck (or are 10 man, with lower loot drops and less variety in loot dropped).

Personally, i think too many people fuss over other difficulties that aren't aimed at them. Don't like LFR? Don't do it. I've never had to do LFR once this expansion to get gear on my main or experience the fights.

[Seefer]

There wasn't less to do, back ion those days it tooks weeks or months to level to cap.

Most players never got a max level toon. When subs were highest, most players were wandering around until level 40 or so, when they quit. it just took them ages to get to that point. Now they get to level 40 and quit, but it takes them no time at all.

Because raiders moaned, and because raiders got whatever they want in wow until recently (now it's just 90% of what they want) the levelling process was made laughably easy and fast so that raiders could have masses of alts to raid with. If you want to go back to the TBC/vanilla model of wow, you'd also have to content yourself with a 21 days /played per toon to hit cap.

Vanilla wasn't it's boom period, BC was and it didn't take long to get to level cap, and then there was WOTLK with no LFR as well and that expansion was WAY easy to level, so again, still less to do back then and had high subscriptions.

[Normie]

but I always have a hard time to explain to them that this whole raiding ritual is no where near "fun" for a casual gamer

It's really not, and it's in strict opposition to anything resembling "role playing."

If Blizzard could figure out a way that people could kill pixel dragons, and the "optimum" way involved role playing, maybe the game would make more sense.

[khalltusk]

Vanilla wasn't it's boom period, BC was and it didn't take long to get to level cap, and then there was WOTLK with no LFR as well and that expansion was WAY easy to level, so again, still less to do back then and had high subscriptions.

Vanilla was a boom period. It was rising through the roof and it continued into TBC and leveled out during Wrath when it finally hit its peak. Cata saw the first major losses (some in wrath after a year of ICC but even then it was not that huge a drop).

[Deleted]

Vanilla wasn't it's boom period, BC was and it didn't take long to get to level cap, and then there was WOTLK with no LFR as well and that expansion was WAY easy to level, so again, still less to do back then and had high subscriptions.

You are quibbling with the fine detail because you know my major points are correct.