Legendary Cloak Proc for Tanks: Usefull?

[Surfd]

So, I have to ask: Does anyone else think that the Proc for the Legendary Tank Cloaks is of highly questionably Usefullness?

How often does a tank find themselves in a situation that "nullifying" a hit that would kill them is useful?

Generally, if a Tank dies, it is usually due to one of two things:

A: They are getting overwhelmed lots of small hits that the heals cant keep up with, like in trash pulls where they pull way too much, or on boss fights where there are multiple small sources of damage, interspersed with the bigger hits, in which case, the cloak proc absorbing a 10 or 15k hit, only to have the next one kill you anyway isn't exactly going to be very useful.

B: The tank takes a BIG hit that they shouldnt really be takeing (IE, Deathwing Impales with too many stacks, etc). In this case, while the proc will save their ass, it isnt solving the overall problem that these kind of mechanics basicly reward gameing the cloak to eat hits you shouldnt be eating (Ie, why tank swap properly when you can just eat that next hit you KNOW would kill you simply because the cloak will let you).

Also, how is this going to play with abilities like Ardent Defender or Purgatory? If a hit lands that would have killed you, will Purgatory still proc or will the cloak null out that hit and let purgatory take the next one? It's even worse with Ardent Defender, since the "get out of death free card" in that one is an active ability. Paladins might have to make the choice of deciding if they want to use AD only for the damage reduction, since the cloak may have higher priority then the AD proc, meaning that if a killer hit lands with Ardent Defender up the cloak could eat it instead of AD, effectively wasting the AD proc, unless another killer hit is likely to land within the AD window.

Personally, I think the idea of ANY ability that effectively rewards tanks for Dying (ie, something bad just happened that shouldnt have been allowed to happen in the first place) is bad.

Maybe if they re-designed the proc to give Tanks a Large amount of damage reduction when they hit 10% HP instead would be more useful?

Any thoughts?

[Surfd]

The Tank cloak is very versatile and powerful. For case A that you described it has a very high itemlevel and three raw Stats as opposed to two stats of regular cloaks.

The extra stats are nice, but not part of the topic at hand. I am concerned specificly with the proc, which is not really going to help you in the Case A scenario. (yay, you absorbed that 8k hit that would have killed you, here is a 10k hit .5 seconds later that will).

And for "Big Hits" it has the Legendary proc. Your concern is also pretty irrelevant, because important Abilities like Deathwing Impale are hardcoded to be mitigated. Priest Guardian Spirit or Ardent Defender do not work on these. The cloak is an extra help for big Hits, aswell as for little hits, but it is no cheating device or a tool that encourages changing your gameplay.

I know some some specific boss abilities are hard coded to prevent cheezing, the Impale example might have been a bad choice. How about multiple stacks of Talon Rake or Fusion Slash then? Just let yourself eat that extra Fusion Slash which you KNOW will kill you (hell, dont even bother popping cooldowns) since you can guarantee that the cloak will absorb the full hit? That encourages you to do things you shouldn't really be doing.

If everyone is doing their job properly, a tank "dying" to a hit (even if an ability or proc prevents the death) is something that should NEVER be happening. The cloak proc (and similar abilities) basicly says "go ahead, do bad things, we will let you get away with it".

DPS / healers get procs that benefit them for properly preforming their roll / help them do their role better. Tanks get a proc that effectively says "someone done messed up, but that's ok". Sure, not dying is technically allowing you to do your role better, but the way it is presented is kind of like a negative reinforcement rather then a positive one. And that seems a bit wrong to me.

[lavaalamp]

DPS / healers get procs that benefit them for properly preforming their roll / help them do their role better. Tanks get a proc that effectively says "someone done messed up, but that's ok". And that seems a bit wrong to me.

ummm no? say the tank gets knocked down to 200k hp then say lei shen hits a 200k. your cloak will absorb the damage and save your raid from wiping. it's a trust fall proc yo.

[Deleted]

ummm no? say the tank gets knocked down to 200k hp then say lei shen hits a 200k. your cloak will absorb the damage and save your raid from wiping. it's a trust fall proc yo.

Yes, but the question here is: is that proc that saves your slacking-on-using-CDs ass (or carries your slacking healers) better at allowing your raid to kill bosses in fewere attempts compared to actually increased raid DPS? We as a guild are also not sure at the moment, and it depends largely on the next raids mechanics.

[Cairhiin]

Considering that Ardent Defender, a 2min ability with a near similar proc, got nerfed because it was too powerful I'd say it is very useful.

[Surfd]

ummm no? say the tank gets knocked down to 200k hp then say lei shen hits a 200k. your cloak will absorb the damage and save your raid from wiping. it's a trust fall proc yo.

Except that it is not really a "trust fall mechanic" at all. A "trust fall" implies that you are takeing a leap of faith that if you fall, your friends will catch you and prevent you from hitting the ground.

A trust fall would be not popping one of your cooldowns because you know your friends will be there to catch you, either with their own cooldowns, or by healing through it.

Which is nothing like what the cloak proc rewards. If the cloak procs, you have already hit the ground. The trust fall has failed. The cloak proc rewards a failure of either healers or tanks to do their job properly. It is the opposite of a Trust Fall. It is the equivilent of doing a Trust Fall onto a surface equipped with an airbag with complete understanding that if no one catches you, you wont suffer any consequences anyway (which sort of negates the intent of a Trust Fall, doesnt it?).

It is rewarding you for failing, or encouraging you do things that would normally kill you because you know the cloak will magically save you from that death.

[Pariah]

The usefulness of the cloak lies in the amount of time it takes to get it. If we're not wracking in the oranges until after the content is clear: it's pretty useless for trivialized farm. If we can get it early, it can be gamed-- just like paladins gamed Soul Reaper with Ardent Defender on Heroic Lich King. Not having to burn a cooldown because you know the cloak will save you is, in fact, an extra cooldown. /shrug

I'm willing to bet the DPS one will get scooped up if it takes too long to acquire this thing (e.g. 2+ months).

[Deleted]

Except that it is not really a "trust fall mechanic" at all. A "trust fall" implies that you are takeing a leap of faith that if you fall, your friends will catch you and prevent you from hitting the ground.

A trust fall would be not popping one of your cooldowns because you know your friends will be there to catch you, either with their own cooldowns, or by healing through it.

Which is nothing like what the cloak proc rewards. If the cloak procs, you have already hit the ground. The trust fall has failed. The cloak proc rewards a failure of either healers or tanks to do their job properly. It is the opposite of a Trust Fall. It is the equivilent of doing a Trust Fall onto a surface equipped with an airbag with complete understanding that if no one catches you, you wont suffer any consequences anyway (which sort of negates the intent of a Trust Fall, doesnt it?).

It is rewarding you for failing, or encouraging you do things that would normally kill you because you know the cloak will magically save you from that death.

No it's not rewarding you for failing, it's an indication at how hard stuff will hit on heroics.

The abilities of bosses are going to be that punishing that having the cloak is a way to mitigate those very insane damage spikes.

[Raiju]

Yes, but the question here is: is that proc that saves your slacking-on-using-CDs ass (or carries your slacking healers) better at allowing your raid to kill bosses in fewere attempts compared to actually increased raid DPS? We as a guild are also not sure at the moment, and it depends largely on the next raids mechanics.

Obviously its mechanic dependent, everything in the game is.

That being said, people around here think too highly of themselves and don't think they can legitimately mess up and die/cause the tank to die. It happens. On some fights it happens more than others. If it didn't world top guilds would have a lot more competition. Most of your guilds wipes are pre-enrage yes? and rarely because you didn't meet X dps req in the fight? >See cloak.

[Iglou]

No it's not rewarding you for failing, it's an indication at how hard stuff will hit on heroics.

The abilities of bosses are going to be that punishing that having the cloak is a way to mitigate those very insane damage spikes.

I totally disagree with this.
If you consider that cloak is a must have for tank on heroics difficulty, then you considerer that the healing/dps requirement should also be insane and that the healing/dps cloaks are also mandatory. Which basically says : "you will only take people that have the cloak in your raid". And we all know Blizzard will not do such a thing.

Surfd seems to have a much better understanding of this, it is here to ease fights / forgive failures - by giving tanks another CD to play with.
You know something will hit hard, you know your raid is in a bad shape or you simply wants to save CD for later? Then use the cloak to fully absorb this.
Nothing mandatory just comfort of playing.

Same with the other cloaks procs - that will surely easy mechanics / dps requirement a bit but won't be mandatory for heroics. Never were, never will be. Similar to the meta gem, cloak that weren't mandatory for previous heroics content.

[Deleted]

I totally disagree with this.
If you consider that cloak is a must have for tank on heroics difficulty, then you considerer that the healing/dps requirement should also be insane and that the healing/dps cloaks are also mandatory. Which basically says : "you will only take people that have the cloak in your raid". And we all know Blizzard will not do such a thing.

Surfd seems to have a much better understanding of this, it is here to ease fights / forgive failures - by giving tanks another CD to play with.
You know something will hit hard, you know your raid is in a bad shape or you simply wants to save CD for later? Then use the cloak to fully absorb this.
Nothing mandatory just comfort of playing.

Same with the other cloaks procs - that will surely easy mechanics / dps requirement a bit but won't be mandatory for heroics. Never were, never will be. Similar to the meta gem, cloak that weren't mandatory for previous heroics content.

Heroics are not meant for casuals, people that raid on a weekly basis all have the cloak by now, you can be sure it will be balanced around it.

For normal raiders the cloak will of course not be mandatory, but then again on normal everything hits twice as less as on heroic.

With how easy it will be to acquire the cloak, there's no reason for them not to do it.

[Iglou]

Heroics are not meant for casuals, people that raid on a weekly basis all have the cloak by now, you can be sure it will be balanced around it.

For normal raiders the cloak will of course not be mandatory, but then again on normal everything hits twice as less as on heroic.

With how easy it will be to acquire the cloak, there's no reason for them not to do it.

Once again I disagree.

Just to put some context in what I mean: I play in a 25M guild, we cleaned ToT heroic something like 2 months ago. As often for 25M guilds, once the progress 'race' is over some people stop as they won't have as much time for the next tier of content. This time between two tiers is used to recruit, stuff, train some new people. Some other people switch class to fill some gaps. In our case, if I consider the complete line up ~30-35 people, I can be almost sure that some will never have the cloak before we cleaned the next tier of heroic content. Some might get the cloak for the last few bosses but not before.

If we considerer T14 and T15, those were not balanced around the legendary gem / extra weapon socket / legendary meta gem.

If you just consider that this cloak is mandatory then it will be extremely difficult to recover from:
- a member leaving,
- a member not available said night,
- add-any-other-reason-that-will-require-you-to-take-an-undergeared-alt-or-to-recruit.

This would also be the return of Nefarian-like encounter and will go against all kind of catch-up mechanics.
Let's assume new players create a guild before 5.4 hits. They rush through normal and heroics content. If those same players are not able to move forward in H SoO that would just be ... hum that would never happen. And yes such a scenario could happen any time considering the low amount of time require to level up a new char, get 516+ ilvl. This is enough to go through the first few ToT heroics.

For such reasons I highly doubt there will be any kind of balance/mechanics that forces us to have such a legendary cloak (or even a 608 one).

[Airwaves]

All i can see is alot of tanks just using the dps one.

[Iglou]

All i can see is alot of tanks just using the dps one.

That's mostly due to the secondary stats being awful on tank version.
Parry - dodge and doge - mastery are just bad when most tanks aim for pure DPS stats.

[Deleted]

Calling the cloak procc useless is like calling Argent Defender for paladins useless. It would if anything boost vengeance since you know that when the cloak is on cooldown you can spam /sit as tank and then just be more careful when its on CD.

[judgementofantonidas]

So, I have to ask: Does anyone else think that the Proc for the Legendary Tank Cloaks is of highly questionably Usefullness?

How often does a tank find themselves in a situation that "nullifying" a hit that would kill them is useful?

Generally, if a Tank dies, it is usually due to one of two things:

A: They are getting overwhelmed lots of small hits that the heals cant keep up with, like in trash pulls where they pull way too much, or on boss fights where there are multiple small sources of damage, interspersed with the bigger hits, in which case, the cloak proc absorbing a 10 or 15k hit, only to have the next one kill you anyway isn't exactly going to be very useful.

B: The tank takes a BIG hit that they shouldnt really be takeing (IE, Deathwing Impales with too many stacks, etc). In this case, while the proc will save their ass, it isnt solving the overall problem that these kind of mechanics basicly reward gameing the cloak to eat hits you shouldnt be eating (Ie, why tank swap properly when you can just eat that next hit you KNOW would kill you simply because the cloak will let you).

Also, how is this going to play with abilities like Ardent Defender or Purgatory? If a hit lands that would have killed you, will Purgatory still proc or will the cloak null out that hit and let purgatory take the next one? It's even worse with Ardent Defender, since the "get out of death free card" in that one is an active ability. Paladins might have to make the choice of deciding if they want to use AD only for the damage reduction, since the cloak may have higher priority then the AD proc, meaning that if a killer hit lands with Ardent Defender up the cloak could eat it instead of AD, effectively wasting the AD proc, unless another killer hit is likely to land within the AD window.

Personally, I think the idea of ANY ability that effectively rewards tanks for Dying (ie, something bad just happened that shouldnt have been allowed to happen in the first place) is bad.

Maybe if they re-designed the proc to give Tanks a Large amount of damage reduction when they hit 10% HP instead would be more useful?

Any thoughts?

I think that it is quite laughable that they nerfed Ardent defender which used to be the Paladin tank instant live through something every once in a while in the background and replaced it with something you need to use in a very limited time frame to accomplish the same goal. They felt it was too OP for paladin tanks to have a tool that could save their life every once in a while without them having to consciously do anything to make it work. Now they are offering up that very same ability to ALL tanks, with the most humorous part being any Paladins who know what they are doing, who originally had this ability are currently rocking the "dps" haste cloak and will not benefit from it.

[Raugnaut]

Calling the cloak procc useless is like calling Argent Defender for paladins useless. It would if anything boost vengeance since you know that when the cloak is on cooldown you can spam /sit as tank and then just be more careful when its on CD.

No, you CANT boost vengeance in 5.4 like that since blizz has made it to where Crits dont generate extra vengeance, so you just take more damage for nothing.

Essentially, this means that once a minute, your healers can slack off, and/or you can probably solo tank things a bit more, such as taking a few extra stacks of Ji-kun's Talon Rake.

Really, for the average tank, the DPS cloak will be MUCH more useful once they know the fight. I can defintely see progression guilds having thier tanks run this though when learning new fights. Having a tank forgiveness policy in raids is pretty awesome for progression.

Of course, who knows? Its possible that blizz will actually design a bunch of heroic fights over tanks having this cloak.

[Maxweii]

There's already one example i've used so many times for this
So you are calling a tank being hit by Execute a bad tank? One that will always 100% do more then their HP allows? From what I see using the tank legendary proc on this would be better then Purgatory or AD

[Dimzum]

Calling the cloak procc useless is like calling Argent Defender for paladins useless. It would if anything boost vengeance since you know that when the cloak is on cooldown you can spam /sit as tank and then just be more careful when its on CD.

Except the ability only absorbs a single hit. Tank is at 250k health, boss hits for 500k, hit is absorbed. Boss melees/AoEs/farts in the direction of the tank for 275k, tank dies.

When it was awesome Ardent defender reduced the damage below 35%, prevented any deathkill AND healed for 30% of health.

[Surfd]

No it's not rewarding you for failing, it's an indication at how hard stuff will hit on heroics.

The abilities of bosses are going to be that punishing that having the cloak is a way to mitigate those very insane damage spikes.

Blizzard would NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, balance any part of the raid game around the need to have a specific piece of gear to guarantee your completion of a fight. They moved past that back in Vanilla, when they realised things like the Onyxia cloak were a dumb idea as a raid mechanic. The idea that blizzard would design the Heroic Content so that the only realistic way to survive it would be having the Legendary cloak is beyond dumb.

- - - Updated - - -

There's already one example i've used so many times for this
So you are calling a tank being hit by Execute a bad tank? One that will always 100% do more then their HP allows? From what I see using the tank legendary proc on this would be better then Purgatory or AD

In the case of abilities that appear to be a guaranteed tank death, there are ALWAYS methods of mitigating them built into the raid mechanics. Think "extra action button" on Ultraxion for Tank Debuffs. Relying on your cloak to absorb them instead of properly following mechanics is once again rewarding bad play.

--------------------------------------------

Let me put this to you another way: Assuming everyone is doing what they are supposed to be doing, the fight is executed properly according to the intended mechanics, and no one cheezes anything, how rewarding is it going to be looking at Recount and going:

Hey, My dps was awesome. I had great uptime on targets. Look how much extra damage my DPS cloak proc gave me.
Hey, My healing was awesome. I had great throughput on the raid. Nobody died, Look how much extra Healing my Healing Cloak Proc gave me.
Hey, My Tanking was awesome. Look at my ZERO legendary cloak procs. Why the hell didnt I get the DPS cloak instead.

Which one of the above seems out of place to you?