I always wanted only to see the content

[khalltusk]

And yet u cannot provide data or figures to the contrary...

U have stated "blue posters said so" and thats about it.

I am actually not in disagreement that a large amount of people using LFR are players who never raided b4. Im just also saying that a large amount of LFR players r also raiders who have dropped out and abandonded raiding.

U still havent addressed the fact that the raiding community is declining fast. Ru really trying to say that this has absolutely nothing to do with LFR?

Yes I said blue posters said so as quite frankly its on the mmo champ front pages enough times and i'm not going to go google search it for you.

I have addressed the fact the raiding community has dwindled a bit in Normal mode. You should it i've said multiple times. raiding numbers went down quite sharply due to the change in difficulty during Cata. 10/25 man sharing the same difficulty loot and lockout. 10man casual guilds got hit hard and pugs often failed to down more than a couple of bosses. LFR was brought in to give these people a way of raiding as well as the people who never raided before. Now blizzard plans on bringing in Flex mode to give the beer league raiders and pugs a proper method of raiding thats under Normal mode but more difficult than LFR. LFR was the only alternative for casual raiders thats why some peopel only did that and not normal mode was it was vastly more difficult, Hence flex mode.....

You really should read my posts more fully.

infact here you go some info on flex mode and what it aims to do.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...nsoles-TCG-Art

[DeadmanWalking]

Doing normals is only "faster" when you have downed the encounter in the first place. LFR day 1 and normals day 1 with the same people would be vastly different in terms of clear speed. Yes the queue time can be higher thats a given. But it does beat spamming trade chat all day .

But for the most part people who didn't raid before can now thanks to LFR it provides them a means of getting into raiding, even if its a easier version.

I'm a player that started raiding in LFR and I enjoyed the taste of LFR, I started studying my class and improving myself to get to the top of the dps charts, I study the bosses before they are released. I consumed LFR because my Guild could never get itself in a position to raid but eventually I decided that LFR wasn't enough of a challenge for me and I left my Guild when they disapeared for Swtor for the second time and I went to join a Raid Guild because I had to raid, it was in my blood. It had to be done.

Now I use LFR to practice mechanics, to sharpen my muscle memory, cap valor, gear up my alts and to fill in gear holes that will improve my performance in Guild Raid time. Because my mistweaver alt is geared up in LFR I can switch from DPS to misweaver and my guildie switches from Resto healer to dps and it gets us past Horridon's poisons and curses much easier. Then we switch back. I can try new rotations, I can try new alts in a raid like environment without wasting Guild scheduled raid time.

LFR will give you what you put into it. If you put effort into it it will reward you. If you put nothing into it you will get nothing out of it with the exceptions of some sub par crappy versions of raid gear.

[zaneosak]

There is nothing wrong with it until you look at the amount of money spent on that content and the numbers of players seeing said content.

FYI BT and hyjal were face roll easy with only a couple of bosses really causing some slow down. But back on point Hard content is still here just locked under heroic mode. We now have easier content for people who want to see the same raid/bosses but at a difficulty THEY can complete. For those who can and want to make a go of it you will have flex normal and heroic.

If you have raiding as it used to be then it will get a budget that will reflect this. So imagine scenario re-using the same models and zones and having bosses in there instead. You won't get unique art bosses etc as the budget will be TINY compared. You cannot justify having such a large budget for a raid when so few people will visit it. Thus LFR justifies having Heroic and Normal raiding.

I wish you and everybody else would stop using the blue post "more content takes too much money" excuse. Trust me, Blizzard isn't hurting for money. MMOs are supposed to cater to a wide variety of players and they do that, but they can go to both ends of the spectrum on this. Not just the low end in difficulty.

[khalltusk]

I wish you and everybody else would stop using the blue post "more content takes too much money" excuse. Trust me, Blizzard isn't hurting for money. MMOs are supposed to cater to a wide variety of players and they do that, but they can go to both ends of the spectrum on this. Not just the low end in difficulty.

They are not hurting for money BUT if you are making content that is very expensive (it is) and there is no alternative made for the rest of the player base something is wrong.

Since they really have not come up with a good alternative to raiding and they have to justify the money they spend on the game (they are a business) the easiest thing for them to do is make LFR etc.

you understand this right and why we make this statement? Oh blizzard also stated that they saw players not clearing raid content so thats why nax was re-released previously and raids made more accessible. Then we fast forward and we now have LFR.

Seriously if you spend a LOT of development time and money on the game you need to justify it. Dungeons have been confirmed to compete with raids for time/budget and strangely they are not being made in patches currently. Since 5mans were a primary source of catch up and gear advancement for casual players and are not being made how else do people play catchup or advance their character? Thats right LFR.

You are very correct that MMOS cater to a wider community. Thats why LFR makes sense. True they can make an alternative but im unsure what it would be.

[Maniac2]

I'm glad you're having fun but this is what has ruined raiding and its exclusivity. Don't you remember running around Isle of Quel'danas doing your dailies and seeing a shaman in his/her full skyshatter and just knowing "damn, that guy is good" and it being unique and rare. Or even back in Vanilla, seeing a Pally in Judgement sitting in Ironforge, that was badass. Now every reject and his friend runs around in the tier gear and legendary cloaks. It's insulting.

I guess we are different kind of people. I never looked at other people and their gear, never tought of "how good he is", never cared about my exclusive gear towards others. Maybe they were unique, maybe I was too, but never looked at it that way. Showing off was never my style. Can you belive I never ever transmogged a single piece of gear? Just dont care.
Maybe if I am teenager, I would care about showing off, but as grown men, its just not important in my life, be it in game or IRL.

And Im sorry if it ruined your raiding and its exclusivity, but its just your point of view. You want to be respected and glorified in your realm community and this is not happening anymore. All I can say try to change with times, maybe find a new game where your needs for exclusivity will be accomplished
From my point of view, when I was hardcore raiding, I never needed other peoples to look at me as semi-god, never wanted odd /w oh, how great gear you got etc.

[Deleted]

"LFR is too easy"

Raiding was never difficult, people were just retarded - theres not a single fight i can think of where i personally had an issue because i don't have the mental age and skills of a dead fish.

LFR is for solo players that just want the gear / socials / alts

Everything else is for people that want to raid.

[Deleted]

Raiding was never difficult, people were just retarded

Are you saying in general, raiding in WoW has never been difficult? If so, facepalms, facepalms everywhere.

Some bosses were never defeated (not a single time) until nerfed by Blizzard. Just something as simple as the boss having too much HP, doing too much damage to the tank or too much AOE damage = difficult. It doesn't have to be complicated, it could simply be hard by healers not being able to keep up with damage etc.

[Pull My Finger]

And yet u cannot provide data or figures to the contrary...

U have stated "blue posters said so" and thats about it.

That's BS talk. The burden of proof is more likely on you. You're the one that's claiming stuff out of nowhere, while your "opponent" at least has official statements that back him up. It's not like the information is hidden somewhere out there. It's not his job to educate you. If you're so passionate about discussing a topic, inform yourself.

It's just the typical internet loudmouth tactics, really. Running your mouth in a generalizing and presumptious way while trying to refute anything that comes your way with the juvenile challenge to "prove it". What have you actually proven? If you ask for proof, you should go ahead and substantiate everything you claim with proof in advance, or else it's just being a jackass.

You can't prove shit, just as much as the other guy. And nobody shouldn't have to, as it's supposed to be about debating and bringing arguments, and the only situation where people resort to "can you prove it?" tactics is when they get cornered by their own insecurity.

[Deleted]

Now you've seen it, did you feel like you experienced it?

As a tank I have to say yes, there is no difference from LFR to NHC for me. Heroic will probably be the same(atleast thats how NHC->HC felt for me in Cata and WOTLK)

[Deleted]

Are you saying in general, raiding in WoW has never been difficult? If so, facepalms, facepalms everywhere.

Some bosses were never defeated (not a single time) until nerfed by Blizzard. Just something as simple as the boss having too much HP, doing too much damage to the tank or too much AOE damage = difficult. It doesn't have to be complicated, it could simply be hard by healers not being able to keep up with damage etc.

WoW in general has never been a difficult game, people are just not very good.

If you can physically do it in WoW, odds are people are just sucking too much to be able to do it. And if you can't do it ? Simply get better gear and do it or get rid of the bad players if you take it seriously.

[Robert3620]

LFR is what the hardcore was calling for. You wanted harder normals, you got them. You wanted content to get nerfed less, you got it. This was all made possible by lfr. What you all failed to take into account was what it would do to the social and lower tier guilds. Those got wrecked by this new model and went a way. With them leaving that made it harder for people to break into raiding. You destroyed your seed crop and now are upset about it. The entire problem right now is that normal is just tuned beyond a large portion of the community that use to be normal mode raiders. It's what you wanted, it's what you got, now live with it.

[DeadmanWalking]

And i can list u more than that who i know were raiders and now settle for LFR...

.

You need to stop using this rediculous argument, it holds just as much validity as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger and will whoop the others daddy. Unless you know every player and can clearly categorize raiders who quit because of LFR than the rest IT IS NOT FACT OR DATA!!!

Edited: Sorry my web browser went nutso and repeated a lot.

[Seefer]

Yes..but as people get older and get a job and maybe a wife and shit they got less time to sit behind their pcs for 20 hours a week. They got LFR to still SEE the game, really so if i haven't completed God of war on hardest difficulty then i haven't experieced god of war? bullshit logic.

My GM has a wife and kids, job, his wife goes to college...........and oh yeah we only raid 2 nights a week for a total of 6 hrs, you stereotype raiders as people with no families, jobs, life outside the game and even in BC my raid leader had a wife and job! Maybe you should stop stereotyping just to try and validate your excuse as to why you don't raid and just admit maybe it's too hard for you.

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Without LFR, people didn't raid at all. Please keep that in mind.

And yet before LFR there were more people playing, so SOMETHING must have kept them playing and having fun!

[khalltusk]

You need to stop using this rediculous argument, it holds just as much validity as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger and will whoop the others daddy. Unless you know every player and can clearly categorize raiders who quit because of LFR than the rest IT IS NOT FACT OR DATA!!!

- - - Updated - - -



You need to stop using this argument, its just as rediculous as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger. Unless you know every player and you can clearly catalog which raiders left over LFR IT IS NOT EMPERICAL DATA!

- - - Updated - - -



There is more to resources than money. Finding developers that can fit into the Warcraft style of production is not at all easy, resources for content is finite.

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You need to stop using this argument, its just as rediculous as two third graders fighting over whose daddy is bigger. Unless you know every player and you can clearly catalog which raiders left over LFR IT IS NOT EMPERICAL DATA!

Yeh I know the fact they have a limited amount of staff and finding the right staff is never easy. They did some people onto the team from the Titan project so we should see even more content soon! Still budgets come into this factor as you have to assign a budget to a department to make that content it all goes hand in hand.

[zaneosak]

I guess we are different kind of people. I never looked at other people and their gear, never tought of "how good he is", never cared about my exclusive gear towards others. Maybe they were unique, maybe I was too, but never looked at it that way. Showing off was never my style. Can you belive I never ever transmogged a single piece of gear? Just dont care.
Maybe if I am teenager, I would care about showing off, but as grown men, its just not important in my life, be it in game or IRL.

And Im sorry if it ruined your raiding and its exclusivity, but its just your point of view. You want to be respected and glorified in your realm community and this is not happening anymore. All I can say try to change with times, maybe find a new game where your needs for exclusivity will be accomplished
From my point of view, when I was hardcore raiding, I never needed other peoples to look at me as semi-god, never wanted odd /w oh, how great gear you got etc.

It has nothing to do with the "look" or "showing off". I am not saying go AFK in Stormwind to show off. I am saying when you run into someone that has that kind of gear you know they are an elite player and a dedicated one. Something you can respect alot in the old mindset of MMOs. It's much like seeing someone with Bane of the Fallen King in Wrath when it was current and new content, From someone who got bane of the fallen king after 400 wipes, everybody that I saw with it before me made me want to work even harder to get the prestigious achievement.

There should be some things in the game that are unique to the super elite, that is all I am saying and right now Blizzard is going in the complete opposite direction. Just because you pay, you are not entitled to anything. You should have to put in the time, effort and dedication to complete the most challenging and inaccessible content in a game.

[alturic]

As a tank I have to say yes, there is no difference from LFR to NHC for me. Heroic will probably be the same(atleast thats how NHC->HC felt for me in Cata and WOTLK)

Did you just say LFR, Normal and Heroic are all the same? o.O Have you ever done Normal or Heroic?

[Deleted]

It has nothing to do with the "look" or "showing off". I am not saying go AFK in Stormwind to show off. I am saying when you run into someone that has that kind of gear you know they are an elite player and a dedicated one. Something you can respect alot in the old mindset of MMOs. It's much like seeing someone with Bane of the Fallen King in Wrath when it was current and new content, From someone who got bane of the fallen king after 400 wipes, everybody that I saw with it before me made me want to work even harder to get the prestigious achievement.

There should be some things in the game that are unique to the super elite, that is all I am saying and right now Blizzard is going in the complete opposite direction. Just because you pay, you are not entitled to anything. You should have to put in the time, effort and dedication to complete the most challenging and inaccessible content in a game.

You mean like Heroic ToT Achieves which barely anyone has ?

[Seefer]

LFR came out with DS at the very end of cata and helped reduce sub losses. So not it does not make it mute. LFR was NOT the cause of destroying BEER league. Not in anyones mind. Normals being FAR harder than ever before was the cause of beer league going down the pan (along with 10s and 25 being same difficulty lock out and loot). Cata saw far less pugs early on. Towards the end after the nerfs came in it got easier. You really need to check your self before you wreck your self. You have shown no evidence at all. Posts on this thread are peoples own personal views on what LFR is for them and is not representative of the majority of the player base.

LMAO raids were not hard in Crapaclysm and on my server there were A LOT of pugs going on.

[alturic]

LMAO raids were not hard in Crapaclysm and on my server there were A LOT of pugs going on.

Yea I think peoples perceptions are skewed by "hard" raids due to the server they are on. Stormrage/Illidan have tons of pugs successfully completing content with minimal wipes almost the second week the raid is out. Of course heroic kills don't happen for a little longer into the raid but even then there's pugs that kill at least 50% of the bosses on heroic as some just require a tighter group of players.

[zaneosak]

You mean like Heroic ToT Achieves which barely anyone has ?

If ToT was it's own super-hard zone it'd be different. Say what you want about LFR!=Normal!=Heroic, it's still the same Zone.