Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #241
    Deleted
    It was the Cata pre patch that removed Def and added Mastery, and dear god was tanking boring 696 rotation anyone? And it didn't even matter if you executed it efficiently or not as it had next to no survivability linked to it and tanks did shit dps...
    MoP tanking is the most fun I've had in game.

    OT: when I first saw the patch notes I was a little pissed at the nerfs then realised it wasn't too bad and could actually be interesting on some fights.
    But now the more I think about it the more I think both the GC and BH changes could be brokenly op on some fights leading blizz to some poorly thought out nerfs on week 2 of live :/

  2. #242
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    To be fair, I am not certain I will advocate crit anymore. Seeing as the main reason of that was dodge/parry actually decreased your dps by allowing you took fewer alabaster shield procs, though now when that is nerfed and dodge/parry improved, I find it very likely going for dodge/parry is superior simply because they will provide a dps increase now rather than a decrease, aswell as a lot of holy power.

    Will wait for things to go live before delving deeper into the matter, but as you say, going for dodge/parry after haste cap seems to be a likely option.

    Should be noted though that is not because of the actual dodges and parries, only for the dps increase and HoPo regen increase, and of course abusing whatever fight possible.
    well i guess it all comes down to how much dodge/parry we get from those ratings compared to crit (from a dps pov) or from mastery (from a survivability pov). With the ever present harsh DR on avoidance im thinking crit/mastery/stam will still be the go to next best stat.

  3. #243
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    well i guess it all comes down to how much dodge/parry we get from those ratings compared to crit (from a dps pov) or from mastery (from a survivability pov). With the ever present harsh DR on avoidance im thinking crit/mastery/stam will still be the go to next best stat.
    I guess it will depends if we will prioritise dps or survival.

    I figure it will be mastery>stam from a survival PoV.
    The crit vs dodge/parry is more interesting trade-off. Multi target naturally going to favor dodge/parry.
    The thing I find interesting is that if you can reach enough dodge/parry to get 100% SotR coverage, dodge/parry can actually become quite valuable from survival point of view aswell. As I mentioned in the other thread, imagine having the trinket from ToT that gives mastery on dodges, having constantly say 40% avoidance, 100% sotr uptime, 80% block and 75% SotR damage reduction, that would just be insane.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    It was the Cata pre patch that removed Def and added Mastery, and dear god was tanking boring 696 rotation anyone? And it didn't even matter if you executed it efficiently or not as it had next to no survivability linked to it and tanks did shit dps...
    MoP tanking is the most fun I've had in game.

    OT: when I first saw the patch notes I was a little pissed at the nerfs then realised it wasn't too bad and could actually be interesting on some fights.
    But now the more I think about it the more I think both the GC and BH changes could be brokenly op on some fights leading blizz to some poorly thought out nerfs on week 2 of live :/
    Bleh, yeah you're right - I recalled the FOS's for weapon skill in Wrath, and got my timelines mixed up. Been playing/tanking too long!

    But yes, all of these people screaming bloody murder on the forums (here and official) about the GC and BH "nerfs" haven't done the math. We're actually getting [situationally] buffed. Lack of foresight is typical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  5. #245
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I guess it will depends if we will prioritise dps or survival.

    I figure it will be mastery>stam from a survival PoV.
    The crit vs dodge/parry is more interesting trade-off. Multi target naturally going to favor dodge/parry.
    The thing I find interesting is that if you can reach enough dodge/parry to get 100% SotR coverage, dodge/parry can actually become quite valuable from survival point of view aswell. As I mentioned in the other thread, imagine having the trinket from ToT that gives mastery on dodges, having constantly say 40% avoidance, 100% sotr uptime, 80% block and 75% SotR damage reduction, that would just be insane.
    trinket procs aside, if the amount of extra avaoidance we get by going for parry (after haste/hit/exp caps) is "minimal", then we may as well just ignore it and get the mastery/crit stats instead which doesnt suffer from DR.

    That trinket does look interesting now though

  6. #246
    Deleted
    Mastery does suffer from DR now doesn't it? Not nearly as harsh as D/P tho.

    Edit: or was that just the block portion of mastery ?
    Last edited by mmocd8edea4efc; 2013-07-11 at 03:39 PM.

  7. #247
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    trinket procs aside, if the amount of extra avaoidance we get by going for parry (after haste/hit/exp caps) is "minimal", then we may as well just ignore it and get the mastery/crit stats instead which doesnt suffer from DR.

    That trinket does look interesting now though
    Yeah, I have been trying to twist my mind around different priorities. One that crossed my mind on multi-target fights was using that trinket and dodge>crit>parry simply to get that proc more often. Speaking strictly between avoidance and crit of course.

    Though yes, as you say, DR is something we need to bear in mind, but sitting at 0 dodge and 0 parry the DR is not really of great concern right now for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    Mastery does suffer from DR now doesn't it? Not nearly as hash as D/P tho.

    Edit: or was that just the block portion of mastery ?
    It suffers from a cap (the SotR part), not dr.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    trinket procs aside, if the amount of extra avaoidance we get by going for parry (after haste/hit/exp caps) is "minimal", then we may as well just ignore it and get the mastery/crit stats instead which doesnt suffer from DR.

    That trinket does look interesting now though
    Ehhh, I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on the crit train just yet. With the bolus of add/MT fights in SoO, I'm really thinking that avoidance (parry, anyway) will shape up to be a serious contender after Hit/Exp/Haste cap.

    Not only for the fact that avoidance excels on MT/add fights in terms of actual tank performance, but also the fact that it's value is directly increased by each additional incoming hit, in terms of GC. 1% extra parry, on a fight with boss + 3 adds means 1.2% more GC procs an HoPo. That's not inconsequential; the damage from the GC procs may be about even with what you'd get with the same amount of crit due to ratings required, but the HoPo influx is the x-factor there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  9. #249
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Ehhh, I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on the crit train just yet. With the bolus of add/MT fights in SoO, I'm really thinking that avoidance (parry, anyway) will shape up to be a serious contender after Hit/Exp/Haste cap.

    Not only for the fact that avoidance excels on MT/add fights in terms of actual tank performance, but also the fact that it's value is directly increased by each additional incoming hit, in terms of GC. 1% extra parry, on a fight with boss + 3 adds means 1.2% more GC procs an HoPo. That's not inconsequential; the damage from the GC procs may be about even with what you'd get with the same amount of crit due to ratings required, but the HoPo influx is the x-factor there.
    Kinda what I am thinking aswell. I have not really checked much about to 5.4 fights, but dodge/parry seems reasonable if there are a lot of adds simply for the SotR uptime and dps.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Kinda what I am thinking aswell. I have not really checked much about to 5.4 fights, but dodge/parry seems reasonable if there are a lot of adds simply for the SotR uptime and dps.
    Plus, with a BrM co-tank, it's not like anyone else is going to take the gear...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #251
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It suffers from a cap (the SotR part), not dr.
    From the EJ thread:
    "While Mastery itself does not suffer from Diminishing Returns, the amount of Block% you get from Mastery will be reduced by DR."

    Not that it really matters just wanted to prove to myself I wasn't completely forgetting what i'd read.

  12. #252
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    From the EJ thread:
    "While Mastery itself does not suffer from Diminishing Returns, the amount of Block% you get from Mastery will be reduced by DR."

    Not that it really matters just wanted to prove to myself I wasn't completely forgetting what i'd read.
    Yeah, I have no clue about that to be honset, never cared about the block part from mastery, it is imo quite useless. The interesting part of mastery is the SotR reduction.

  13. #253
    Deleted
    im not convinced that block from mastery does suffer from DR tbh....ill have to check in game at some point, unless someone here can blindly says it does/doesnt.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Though yes, as you say, DR is something we need to bear in mind, but sitting at 0 dodge and 0 parry the DR is not really of great concern right now for me.
    hmmmmm, we get a shit ton of parry from strength already though.........im under the impression that you'll already be suffering from fairly high DR from that alone despite having 0 dodge/parry rating from gear. Perhaps parry from strength and parry from parry dont share DR? doubt that though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Ehhh, I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on the crit train just yet. With the bolus of add/MT fights in SoO, I'm really thinking that avoidance (parry, anyway) will shape up to be a serious contender after Hit/Exp/Haste cap.

    Not only for the fact that avoidance excels on MT/add fights in terms of actual tank performance, but also the fact that it's value is directly increased by each additional incoming hit, in terms of GC. 1% extra parry, on a fight with boss + 3 adds means 1.2% more GC procs an HoPo. That's not inconsequential; the damage from the GC procs may be about even with what you'd get with the same amount of crit due to ratings required, but the HoPo influx is the x-factor there.
    no - im not a huge fan of crit yet either tbh. Honestly i think ill be going down the mastery road still in 5.4 unless i get convinced otherwise. how many multi boss/add fights are there in SoO? cant be that many

  14. #254
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    hmmmmm, we get a shit ton of parry from strength already though.........im under the impression that you'll already be suffering from fairly high DR from that alone despite having 0 dodge/parry rating from gear. Perhaps parry from strength and parry from parry dont share DR? doubt that though.
    That's what I've been thinking I got this macro off someone on maintankadin at the start of MoP and if it still holds true I'm suffering from Parry DR much more than Dodges.

    Code:
     /run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Ideal pre-dr parry/dodge ratio: 3.597, yours is %.3f%%, if too high reforge more parry to dodge",(GetParryChance()-3.67)/(GetDodgeChance()-5.01)))

    That's before any strength procs from DS or trinkets, I'm fairly sure if we gear for avoidance on add fights we'll get more from Dodge than Parry.

  15. #255
    Is that macro not from back in Cata? Not that being old makes it incorrect, but I thought that the macro was designed only to correct the imbalance between dodge and parry RATINGS, not total VALUES. I could be (and likely am) off-base on that, though, as I've never used gear with avoidance on it to the point that I even had to consider what to balance.

    But, if that's accurate, then the sheer amount of STR (which is now MUCH higher than in Cata, obv) means we'd have a higher innate Parry rating, which would throw off the balancing of the script. At which point it'd be giving inaccurate results.

    TL;DR - I KNOW that Dodge DRs much more harshly than Parry, so unless you have a shitload of both Parry rating AND STR, I'm unsure that you'd be better off stacking dodge at any point, ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #256
    Deleted
    I can't find the thread i got that macro from but I'm almost certain it's a MoP one as i deleted all my pre MoP macros at 5.0 release.

    If nothing has changed since Theck posted http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/07/06...in-mop-part-3/

    "As you can see, the ideal parry-to-dodge ratio quickly jumps up to 2:1 and then slowly increases to 3:1 and higher as you stack more dodge."

    I'm at 3.68:1 currently add in higher iLvl gear and strength procs and I think most paladins will benefit more from dodge than parry at least until. we get further into dodges DR

  17. #257
    Mechagnome
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    The DR-based formula I know is...
    Code:
    /run d=GetDodgeChance() r=235.5/65.631440-((235.5/65.631440)*5.01-3.76)/d DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry/dodge ratio for your dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",r))
    Old Gods made me do it.

  18. #258
    Don't feel bad then, I'm at ~5:1.

    I think "ideal" ratio should be taken with a [huge] grain of salt, personally. The macro was designed originally to compensate for large stat pools of the 2 avoidances. I've got ~400 of each (IIRC), so it should be considered only if applicable.

    Now, does the parry contribution from STR decay at the same rate as parry rating DRs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #259
    Deleted
    Edit: No idea who I was quoting and where is post went. Nvm.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Keile View Post
    I think Im the only one who is welcoming the Grand Crusader change.

    After playing every incarnation of a prot pally, starting from Vanilla...it felt wrong to be using DPS gear as a tank. I rather like the push towards a more avoidance based tank again, as it should have been from the get-go. You are a tank...you should be blocking/avoiding blows while doing DPS that is less than the main dps of the group.
    Avoidance gearing should be as active as the mechanic is; that is to say, completely 100% passive and built into strength.

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