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  1. #221
    Why not a mastery like the previous, but dynamically scales and isn't too overbearing? Ex.
    "You deal X% more damage during tigerseye brew, multiplied by the amount of tigerseye brew stacks consumed."

    Basically, the same as live, where mastery increases damage during tigerseye brew, but with this, mastery will update dynamically (breaking rune to an extent) and keeping mastery procs relevant. This would also prevent people from spamming 1-2 stacks by multiplying the damage modifier by how many stacks you drink. If 1 stack was 5% damage, 10 stacks would be 50% damage.

  2. #222
    GC wasnt kidding.

    Patch notes got updated today:

    TEB is 6% per stack up for 5%
    3Chi/TEB

    I'll drop these in the spreadsheet, but I'm guessing these changes will be a buff from 5.3

    Edit:

    New Spreadsheet:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...clpnMXc#gid=25

    5.4 DPS
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 248,213
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 234,356
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 238,429

    Mastery->DPS scales better than before, but not as well as crit. Seems weird to me but you get more TEB/min from haste (up to haste cap) than mastery. Seems like if you wanted to maximize TEB/min, you would stack mastery, but it may be just because my gear level in the spreadsheet is at the far end of the spectrum. I might need a few people with 480, 500, and 520 gear levels to volunteer to be my SimC guinnea pigs.

  3. #223
    High Overlord Gulvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzyy View Post
    Glad to see GC talk about this- someone linked him this MMOC thread which is a terrible idea, half the people in this thread are whining nonstop
    You call it whining, I call it valid concerns. They have lost their faith in the dev team with alot of the changes over the current expansion. But there is also alot more thoughtful, and quality discussion about the spec as well as some good TC. I also wanted to let him know about rotund's spreadsheet.

    As per the current PTR, it does look like a nice boost now. RoR will boost the stacks we generate or get us to a 100% crit level (or close to it). It would be similar to tanking monks.
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  4. #224
    Windwalkers just had an extended beta :P.

  5. #225
    My problem with the current 5.4 WW is bad scaling. If we go back to Crit being our best stat (Haste is soft-capped at ~10k rating), that's very bad news because we don't have an additional mechanic that interacts with Crit.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    My problem with the current 5.4 WW is bad scaling. If we go back to Crit being our best stat (Haste is soft-capped at ~10k rating), that's very bad news because we don't have an additional mechanic that interacts with Crit.
    We don't need a mechanic that interacts with crit. Combo breaker works just fine as a RNG keep your rotation interesting mechanic. I'm perfectly fine with what we have.

    If you add such a crit mechanic, you make it so every other stat besides crit sucks. Warriors already do this, we don't need another class that does it as well.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I might need a few people with 480, 500, and 520 gear levels to volunteer to be my SimC guinnea pigs.
    I don't know if mine would be useful, but here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Manu/advanced

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    We don't need a mechanic that interacts with crit. Combo breaker works just fine as a RNG keep your rotation interesting mechanic. I'm perfectly fine with what we have.

    If you add such a crit mechanic, you make it so every other stat besides crit sucks. Warriors already do this, we don't need another class that does it as well.
    I meant that no spec wants crit to be its best secondary stat if it has no additional mechanics that scale with crit (Hot Streak for Fire, Enrage for Fury) because 600 rating for 1% damage increase is terrible. Rogues don't stack crit, Demo / Affliction locks don't stack crit, Enhancement shamans don't stack crit. That's all due to crit being the worst bang for the buck secondary stat if the spec doesn't have any extra bonuses from crit. We may be OK damage wise due to Stance / RSK buffs at 550 ilvl, but how are we going to compete against Rogues, Mages, Warlocks in 574 ilvl BiS if we lose RoR scaling in exchange for stacking lackluster crit because all our other stats have soft-caps or are worse than crit?

    Keep in mind damage is the only thing WW brings to a 25 man raid, just like Mages. Answer this: assuming two equally skilled and equally geared players, why would you bring a WW over a Rogue?

  9. #229
    Overall, I think there is too much whining and not enough constructive feedback.

    "lost their faith in the dev team"
    "I'm getting really tired of our mastery changing so much"
    "blizz has no idea what they are doing"

    Are you trying to make the case that Rune would of been fine next tier?
    That the proper fix was to just change the Rune to avoid WW DPS going through the roof?
    What about the other specs that benefit from this trinket?
    And what about WW damage in PvP, who is stuck with considerably lower secondaries?

    No developer wants to read your feedback if it's just a bunch of ungracious moaning. Time and time again, the first few rounds of mechanic changes are never going to be balanced numerically.

    The need for a raid cooldown is orthogonal to your TEB changes. Try to keep your feedback more focused and constructive rather than trying to fix every problem all at once.

  10. #230
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I might need a few people with 480, 500, and 520 gear levels to volunteer to be my SimC guinnea pigs.
    I'm trying really hard to determine if WW is going to be worth sticking with going into 5.4 progression so anything I can help you collect data on I'll be more than happy to my ilevel is higher than what your looking for but I have plenty gear to test w/e levels you need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  11. #231
    Dreadlord Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    I'm trying really hard to determine if WW is going to be worth sticking with going into 5.4 progression so anything I can help you collect data on I'll be more than happy to my ilevel is higher than what your looking for but I have plenty gear to test w/e levels you need.
    They're barely tuning the numbers right now. A tad early to jump ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    Mastery->DPS scales better than before, but not as well as crit. Seems weird to me but you get more TEB/min from haste (up to haste cap) than mastery.
    It does - considering that it's still 5K haste for 1 e/s.

    It's still better than our first mastery, in that it still scales. I seem to have the unpopular opinion of actually liking this mastery. It's not that the ToT mastery is boring - it's just that it's asking for a nerf (per se, look how many we have had this tier).

    I wouldn't be surprised if we swapped back to crit stacking. It'll feel strange going back to T14 playstyle, that's for sure. But, interesting they chose to write in our T15 4set... I didn't really like that 4set bonus, but I think it has the possibility of helping our rampup.

    It's unfortunate that they haven't buffed Chi Brew for us. When I logged into test it out, prior to this change, it gave an incredible amount of damage - it felt like receiving a Christmas present in July, a la the TeB CD that we've been screaming for.

  12. #232
    I have some gear scaling concerns even with these latest changes. Though I'm willing to take a hit in possible scaling for raid utility.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by raffy View Post
    Overall, I think there is too much whining and not enough constructive feedback.

    "lost their faith in the dev team"
    "I'm getting really tired of our mastery changing so much"
    "blizz has no idea what they are doing"

    Are you trying to make the case that Rune would of been fine next tier?
    That the proper fix was to just change the Rune to avoid WW DPS going through the roof?
    What about the other specs that benefit from this trinket?
    And what about WW damage in PvP, who is stuck with considerably lower secondaries?

    No developer wants to read your feedback if it's just a bunch of ungracious moaning. Time and time again, the first few rounds of mechanic changes are never going to be balanced numerically.

    The need for a raid cooldown is orthogonal to your TEB changes. Try to keep your feedback more focused and constructive rather than trying to fix every problem all at once.
    Plenty of constructive feedback has been given elsewhere, and it has all been ignored. Remember, this is the same dev team that released 5.2 not realizing Chi Wave had been bugged since beta (and had been reported as such numerous times). This is the same dev team that says "WWers heal" (laughable amounts) so WWers don't need a raid CD. This is the same dev team that said they hoped to 'bring WWer participation up to par" in 5.2. I wonder why they failed so miserably?

    The "whining" in this thread comes from the frustration of playing a spec that has been dying since launch, and seeing nothing being done to address any of the participation issues.

    MONKS EVERYWHERE: Why bring a WWer over any other dps?
    BLUE: <crickets>
    Last edited by Moncoko; 2013-07-13 at 06:08 AM.

  14. #234
    Stood in the Fire Rickarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasmus View Post
    It's a huge nerf, it takes 60 Chi ignoring the new Mastery to grant 75% damage increase. Down from 30 Chi for around 200%.
    apples and oranges, man.

    You can't compare it "ignoring the new mastery" because the new mastery will always be there, with a base value, plus at least a minimum amount from gear and the mastery buff.

    And to compare the damage increase in terms of how much chi is required to get it is ridiculous, you can't assume you will have perfect RoRO procs where they proc perfectly every time you get to 10 stacks, because that is statistically implausible. I would say, on average, that it is far more likely that one would see maybe 1/3 of their TeB uses aided by RoRO, with the other 2/3 being a (likely) lower number than 75%. And that is assuming that it procs only when you would be able to have the full 10 stacks, though it's fairly common to see multiple procs in quick succession, forcing sub-10 stack uses.

    Also, the lower damage being done during the RoRO procs must be taken into account when comparing 5.3 w/ RoRO vs 5.4 w/o RoRO. Say, in an average boss fight, assuming you unequip and reequip before the fight to keep it from proccing at the beginning of a fight, you get 3-6 RoRO procs, that would be 30-60 seconds with (almost) no crit or haste, which, in a 5-8 minute fight, can make a difference.

    Finally, you must remember that this is till ptr, and they may not have finished with numbers, we could still see a buff to our stance damage increase, or to a/some skills, or the RSK debuff, etc. Or, they may even change the numbers of TeB.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    I'm trying really hard to determine if WW is going to be worth sticking with going into 5.4 progression so anything I can help you collect data on I'll be more than happy to my ilevel is higher than what your looking for but I have plenty gear to test w/e levels you need.
    This is where I am. Some people say it's "too early to jump ship" on the class.... but if my goal is to be viable for heroic raiding, I'd rather have a geared and prepared class than hoping, really hoping, that WW is going to be viable just to find out, oops, they are worthless in 10 man. Shoulda brought my Shaman or Rogue.... /sigh

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    GC wasnt kidding.

    Patch notes got updated today:

    TEB is 6% per stack up for 5%
    3Chi/TEB
    This is good. Personally, I will be satisfied with a tad more dps and a raid cd. I really enjoy the monk class.

    Come on raid CD!
    Normal is the name for the mental disorder present in the majority of humanity.
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  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by xinjun View Post
    This is good. Personally, I will be satisfied with a tad more dps and a raid cd. I really enjoy the monk class.

    Come on raid CD!
    TBH I'll be happy if our dps comes out the same or higher and idc about a raid CD. I do retarded dps in our raids and not having to worry about a defensive raid CD makes it more enjoyable. Then again I raid 25m so there's less need for the CD. (I won't complain about a skull banner/stormlash type CD though.)

  18. #238
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    They're barely tuning the numbers right now. A tad early to jump ship.
    There is a difference between jumping ship over " crying " and jumping ship over " viable raid spot ". When you are in a top 20 guild there is no such thing as too early only waiting too long.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relix View Post
    This is where I am. Some people say it's "too early to jump ship" on the class.... but if my goal is to be viable for heroic raiding, I'd rather have a geared and prepared class than hoping, really hoping, that WW is going to be viable just to find out, oops, they are worthless in 10 man. Shoulda brought my Shaman or Rogue.... /sigh
    Basically yes there is no such thing as too early and last tier we were only viable because of the RoR, Could a guild carry a WW sure but anytime an encounter strategy came into what raid CD's do we have I found myself sitting because no amount of damage from one person can make up for a raid CD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  19. #239
    Deleted
    when i heard that Chi Brew would now also interact with our class brews, i was crossing my fingers that it was going to make using heroism at the start of a fight usable for us. Personally, i think something needs to be done about our crazy ramp-up time - i know it exists with other classes too, but right now, even with the change to our mastery, TEB is still our cooldown for burn-phase dps, and is not available at the start of a fight. One could argue that Xuen is, however, but AFAIK, he snapshots our current stats and changes, and he is affected by the TEB buff.

    I'm glad they are actually doing something with our spec though, rather than putting it to one side over the other two. Not to mention i wouldn't've liked to be a resto-sham up until recently, they were ignored for ages XD

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMortora View Post
    when i heard that Chi Brew would now also interact with our class brews, i was crossing my fingers that it was going to make using heroism at the start of a fight usable for us. Personally, i think something needs to be done about our crazy ramp-up time - i know it exists with other classes too, but right now, even with the change to our mastery, TEB is still our cooldown for burn-phase dps, and is not available at the start of a fight. One could argue that Xuen is, however, but AFAIK, he snapshots our current stats and changes, and he is affected by the TEB buff.

    I'm glad they are actually doing something with our spec though, rather than putting it to one side over the other two. Not to mention i wouldn't've liked to be a resto-sham up until recently, they were ignored for ages XD
    Yeah hopefully they buff Chi Brew to give a few more stacks, now that we will be balanced around 15 stacks for max burst. It should give at least 5, and should have a chance to proc the new mastery, giving us 10 if we're lucky.

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