[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Diatenium]

It sucks compared to what it needs to do. It sucks compared to abilities like Rem+Uplift, Rej+Mushrooms.
You're wrong when you say they're not meant to give a lot in terms of numbers, that's the while point i was making above. 3 Holy Power abilities are meant to be the most powerful output at our disposal. That or just undo Radiance to its Catalcysm version,delete EF and we'll use LoD like back then

Your comparisons are nothing like the spell in question, beyond the superficial feature of the former requiring only chi and the latter requiring the player to bank on a dormant effect until it's needed.

Comparing between two very different classes and how they handle their spells isn't a good metric for quality; Monks much more heavily emphasize their finishers, unlike rogues and paladins, so in the case of Uplift, It's important to note that this is their only on-demand, instant aoe, wheras Holy paladin's have HR, LoD, and to a lesser extent Daybreak. Meanwhile, as far as I know druids don't pump out mushrooms every 15 seconds, they're much more long-term with them, so of course they will do more healing.

I agree that EF is a problem, and balance is an important matter, but projecting how other classes handle their spells onto our own isn't a good means of determining quality.

No one says LoD should behave like tranquility or htt. And you do realize they gave Healing Rain(a none raid cooldown spell) the same treatment(more healing in 25m)? Why do you keep insisting on posting when you just keep showing you really don't know what is going on?

Healing Rain is a completely different spell from Holy Radiance or LoD. Healing rain is a static ground effect wheras HR and subsequently LoD can be chained on a whim.

Also, please refrain from needless aggression in polite discussion.

[Deleted]

Your comparisons are nothing like the spell in question, beyond the superficial feature of the former requiring only chi and the latter requiring the player to bank on a dormant effect until it's needed.

Comparing between two very different classes and how they handle their spells isn't a good metric for quality; Monks much more heavily emphasize their finishers, unlike rogues and paladins, so in the case of Uplift, It's important to note that this is their only on-demand, instant aoe, wheras Holy paladin's have HR, LoD, and to a lesser extent Daybreak. Meanwhile, as far as I know druids don't pump out mushrooms every 15 seconds, they're much more long-term with them, so of course they will do more healing.

I agree that EF is a problem, and balance is an important matter, but projecting how other classes handle their spells onto our own isn't a good means of determining quality.

Do you even play the game? The post above is wrong on all counts btw.

[Diatenium]

Do you even play the game? The post above is wrong on all counts btw.

Could you articulate what I'm wrong on so we can hold a discussion, or have we regressed beyond the point of reasonable discourse?

[Deleted]

LoD is actually better in 10 man then in 25, as it will cover a large part of the raid. The problem with LoD is it sucks. This is not something new, LoD has never been a great healing ability but right now, after blizzard has nerfed Holy Radiance so much at the start of beta, the 3 Holy Power ability has to rock.

LoD is just as bad in 10 as 25. HR just loses value in 10 so becomes even worse.

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No one says LoD should behave like tranquility or htt. And you do realize they gave Healing Rain(a none raid cooldown spell) the same treatment(more healing in 25m)? Why do you keep insisting on posting when you just keep showing you really don't know what is going on?

I'd prefer to see lod costing mana or 1 hp per use (@ power of 3hp ofc) then hitting more targets. ofc this is a 10m perspective, but I feel the issue is the ramp up and power of the spell, not the number of targets it hits. (i obviously agree with the latter part... but trying to not respond to the stupid posts/people any more here.)

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Could you articulate what I'm wrong on so we can hold a discussion, or have we regressed beyond the point of reasonable discourse?

The problem with extended dialogue with you is that you're so clueless and say so much that explaining it all to you in a matter you understand (after 50 pages of the post you can't comprehend the issues) is all but impossible without derailing the thread. I recommend you simply refrain from posting here until you understand the issues at hand.

[Diatenium]

The problem with extended dialogue with you is that you're so clueless and say so much that explaining it all to you in a matter you understand (after 50 pages of the post you can't comprehend the issues) is all but impossible without derailing the thread. I recommend you simply refrain from posting here until you understand the issues at hand.

And yet here you are, derailing the discussion to offer a hand-wave dismissal of my argument wholesale rather than challenging the points I make directly. I'm not here to play a pissing contest, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion and the opinion of others on this matter, even if I might disagree with them.

[Deleted]

And yet here you are, derailing the discussion to offer a hand-wave dismissal of my argument wholesale rather than challenging the points I make directly. I'm not here to play a pissing contest, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion and the opinion of others on this matter, even if I might disagree with them.

Well you dismiss whatever everyone else says and just stick on with your outdated mechanics and lack of information.

Comparing between two very different classes and how they handle their spells isn't a good metric for quality; Monks much more heavily emphasize their finishers, unlike rogues and paladins, so in the case of Uplift, It's important to note that this is their only on-demand, instant aoe, wheras Holy paladin's have HR, LoD, and to a lesser extent Daybreak. Meanwhile, as far as I know druids don't pump out mushrooms every 15 seconds, they're much more long-term with them, so of course they will do more healing.

First of all Monks have Chi Torpedo, Chi Burst and SCK. All of them are instant on demand aoe. When you bring Daybreak into the discussion and forget all those...well its hard to take you serious.
I posted about Mushrooms as they are more of how a aoe finisher is meant to look like. While druids cannot pump a fully charged mushroom every 15 seconds,they don't have to. As a paladin you have to LoD(or EF which we do now), before you reach 5 Holy Power, you cannot store 15 Holy Power to burst heal later on.

Besides, the point i was making was that since our spells are so poor, the finisher needs to be strong. Your post is mostly like: the finisher is free anyway so why does it matter. That's correct for Cataclysm 4.3 where our Holy Radiance was our main heal and LoD was just a bonus.. Now in Panda 5.4 we need our Blizzard imposed main heal(the 3 Holy Power finisher) to carry us through.

[Diatenium]

Well you dismiss whatever everyone else says and just stick on with your outdated mechanics and lack of information.

If I dismissed them I wouldn't be trying to express my feelings about them, I'd just say they were wrong and go on.

First of all Monks have Chi Torpedo, Chi Burst and SCK. All of them are instant on demand aoe. When you bring Daybreak into the discussion and forget all those...well its hard to take you serious.
I posted about Mushrooms as they are more of how a aoe finisher is meant to look like. While druids cannot pump a fully charged mushroom every 15 seconds,they don't have to. As a paladin you have to LoD(or EF which we do now), before you reach 5 Holy Power, you cannot store 15 Holy Power to burst heal later on.

Ah, right, here's the core contention that's sprung up from my prior statements. As I had feared, I missed a fair amount regarding how MW monks operate in terms of their AoE abilities. I don't have an intimate understanding of how they operate and when the two abilities were brought up (Specifically, REM and Uplift), I researched those abilities almost exclusively, missing the numerous talents that also offer AoE healing as well as forgetting how MW handles SCK. The mistake was in my claim that these were their exclusive sources of AoE healing, my apologies.

Regardless, in the context of the topic we were discussing, my argument still holds up; you're disregarding matter that classes are going to use spells--both individually and in tandem--differently from eachother. Yes, mushrooms are a very powerful ability, but it and LoD are completely different from eachother, and trying to make them identical undermines the point of class identity.

[Freia]

Also, please refrain from needless aggression in polite discussion.

Refrain from discussing a game you obviously know nothing about. You don't raid. Why are you sitting there basically saying everything in our toolkit shouldn't be powerful? HR is weak, LoD is weak and when people who actually know what is up correct you, you dismiss it saying things like, "That spell isn't meant to be powerful".

You don't want to have a discussion, you just want to post and then dismiss what everyone else is saying. "You can't compare this class to that class" Hate to break it to you, you can. That is what balancing is!

[luc54]

Refrain from discussing a game you obviously know nothing about. You don't raid. Why are you sitting there basically saying everything in our toolkit shouldn't be powerful? HR is weak, LoD is weak and when people who actually know what is up correct you, you dismiss it saying things like, "That spell isn't meant to be powerful".

You don't want to have a discussion, you just want to post and then dismiss what everyone else is saying. "You can't compare this class to that class" Hate to break it to you, you can. That is what balancing is!

Maybe diatenium is blizzard developer in disguise. They said healers shouldn't be compared in temrs of hps to each other. That would explain why he thinks LoD is fine as it is healing for pathetic amounts to small portion of the raid.

[Freia]

Maybe diatenium is blizzard developer in disguise. They said healers shouldn't be compared in temrs of hps to each other. That would explain why he thinks LoD is fine as it is healing for pathetic amounts to small portion of the raid.

This is basically how his posts read.
"I don't know how this works but I researched it so I am going to argue..."

At this point I am going to suggest we give him the same treatment Dubalicious suggested for Reglitch. It is obvious that Diatenium does not raid and all his arguments are based on what he thinks abilities look like on paper and not how they really are. He is just derailing the topic further.

[Diatenium]

Refrain from discussing a game you obviously know nothing about. You don't raid. Why are you sitting there basically saying everything in our toolkit shouldn't be powerful? HR is weak, LoD is weak and when people who actually know what is up correct you, you dismiss it saying things like, "That spell isn't meant to be powerful".

Please refrain from invoking Ad Hominem in polite discussion. If these abilities are weak, explain in what context they are. The general perception I'm getting is that absorb prevalence is causing a minimalization of aoe healing, elevating HoTs over bulkier healing in a 25 setting.

The impression seems to be reinforced by raidbots, which puts holy paladins under all other HoT classes (Except shamans, if you consider them a HoT class) in 25 mans, while Holy is sitting pretty at second (At least in heroic, where they presumably are more geared) in 10-mans.

The reason I bring this up is to invite the idea that the matter of our AoE impotence has more to do with disc and less to do with the spells themselves, to such a point that it would require a substantial amount of overhaul work, something that they're not inclined to do mid-expansion.

Edit:

Maybe diatenium is blizzard developer in disguise. They said healers shouldn't be compared in temrs of hps to each other. That would explain why he thinks LoD is fine as it is healing for pathetic amounts to small portion of the raid.

You're putting words in my mouth, I said nothing of holy paladin's performance in terms of HPS, rather I challenged Aladya's belief that LoD should behave exactly like Mushrooms. It shouldn't even be in question that I want holy paladins to perform well, but I'd rather we do it on our terms, rather than pretend to be another class.

This is basically how his posts read.
"I don't know how this works but I researched it so I am going to argue..."

At this point I am going to suggest we give him the same treatment Dubalicious suggested for Reglitch. It is obvious that Diatenium does not raid and all his arguments are based on what he thinks abilities look like on paper and not how they really are. He is just derailing the topic further.

I didn't even need to research the class at all, when the core of contention is that Aladya is making an "Apples-to-Oranges" comparison, I merely did so to inform myself about what this individual was using as an example and illustrate how they are different and why.

[luc54]

While disc does absorb lot of the healing. Even then holy paladin spread aoe is pathetic. Just go look at mostly raw hps fight like tortos 25hc. You can see how bad paladins are in such fights. Shaman are getting buffed so they are gonna be closer to level of other healers. On the other hand you will see holy paladin numbers plummet down even further. You make it sound like holy paladin aoe hps would be amazing without disc priest, which it deffinetely isn't.

[Diatenium]

While disc does absorb lot of the healing. Even then holy paladin spread aoe is pathetic. Just go look at mostly raw hps fight like tortos 25hc. You can see how bad paladins are in such fights. Shaman are getting buffed so they are gonna be closer to level of other healers. On the other hand you will see holy paladin numbers plummet down even further. You make it sound like holy paladin aoe hps would be amazing without disc priest, which it deffinetely isn't.

Ah, finally, some actual insight on the issue of the matter! Your argument is that Paladin's AoE suffers primarily in a spread-out environment? That's rather interesting, and I can see why it might make spells like EF attractive, even in a 25-man fight (Looking at Tortos, both disc and holy paladins are performing pretty awfully).

[Floopa]

Ah, finally, some actual insight on the issue of the matter! Your argument is that Paladin's AoE suffers primarily in a spread-out environment? That's rather interesting, and I can see why it might make spells like EF attractive, even in a 25-man fight (Looking at Tortos, both disc and holy paladins are performing pretty awfully).

Paladin AoE sucks at both spread and stacked up encounters when compared to other classes.

[Freia]

It isn't just spread aoe, even on stacked aoe our actual healing output is lackluster compared to other healers. Our mastery is the only thing that makes our healing look decent in both scenarios. You seem to be unaware of why we use EF over LoD. It isn't for the healing, it is because EF is the most efficient way to keep our mastery rolling on the raid. If you look at fights like Megaera the top paladins are still EF blanketing over LoD. LoD just heals for too little and doesn't have as much synergy with our mastery as EF does. You keep saying EF is the problem, but no it really isn't. Our mastery is the problem.

As I said earlier, our actual heals get snipped by the other healers who have superior toolkits. That is why we rely so heavily on mastery and overhealing to stack it up.

You also, Diatenium, obviously do know why paladins and disc priests do poorly on heroic Tortos compared to other healers. It has nothing to do with it being spread.

[Kyuuseishu]

You're putting words in my mouth, I said nothing of holy paladin's performance in terms of HPS, rather I challenged Aladya's belief that LoD should behave exactly like Mushrooms. It shouldn't even be in question that I want holy paladins to perform well, but I'd rather we do it on our terms, rather than pretend to be another class.

Well now you're putting words in someone elses mouth, Aladya is merely comparing the power of the "finishers" that druids and monks have. They did in no way say they wanted LoD to behave exactly like mushrooms, they merely stated that is how a finisher should work in terms of power. A mushroom can get a monumental amount of healing whereas LoD which either has an 12 second ramp up time or a 6 second ramp up time with a 63k mana cost actually heals for a far less amount.

I didn't even need to research the class at all, when the core of contention is that Aladya is making an "Apples-to-Oranges" comparison, I merely did so to inform myself about what this individual was using as an example and illustrate how they are different and why.

Also realistically the discussions going on here to be honest involve the viability of holy paladins at a heroic raiding level and to some extent normals. These are the only things that matter thus it is looking at how viable we are going to be when it comes down to it in SoO, which when you actually look at holy paladin performance during testing, its pretty poor. You are using 5.3 patch information to confirm your arguments when they don't apply anymore since one of the main mechanics to that healing is now gone.

[Diatenium]

Paladin AoE sucks at both spread and stacked up encounters when compared to other classes.

Erm... Okay, could you articulate your argument? The last chap provided a much clearer picture of his criticism, and provided examples.

As for the subject of spread-out healing, I'm not sure what can be done to resolve this matter. I think there's some merit to be had about increasing the range of our aoe heals (Primarily Holy Radiance), but that raises the issue of it potentially being too effective (IE, if it were 40 yards, ostensibly hitting all players, then there's no risk of misuse and subsequently a higher risk of players spamming it into oblivion), otherwise I think it's not entirely unfair to have some fights where a certain class will under-perform--Don't get misinterpret me, I agree that the performance of Holy Paladins in 25-mans is more an overall issue and it's one I want to resolve just as much as anyone else here (though that bounces right back to the topic of healer ecology in a more "Ideal" setting).

Edit:

It isn't just spread aoe, even on stacked aoe our actual healing output is lackluster compared to other healers. Our mastery is the only thing that makes our healing look decent in both scenarios. You seem to be unaware of why we use EF over LoD. It isn't for the healing, it is because EF is the most efficient way to keep our mastery rolling on the raid. If you look at fights like Megaera the top paladins are still EF blanketing over LoD. LoD just heals for too little and doesn't have as much synergy with our mastery as EF does. You keep saying EF is the problem, but no it really isn't. Our mastery is the problem.

As I said earlier, our actual heals get snipped by the other healers who have superior toolkits. That is why we rely so heavily on mastery and overhealing to stack it up.

You also, Diatenium, obviously do know why paladins and disc priests do poorly on heroic Tortos compared to other healers. It has nothing to do with it being spread.

I understand exactly why EF was so powerful, the spell extends the duration of our mastery shields to 45 seconds--three times the duration of any other rolling absorb effect out there. This, however, loops back to the argument that you're comparing LoD to EF which isn't what the developers intended; of course LoD and Holy Radiance is going to look weak when you can spend a minuet blanketing the raid in bubbles before they're all hit with substantial aoe damage, but that only illustrates that--as a talent--EF was too powerful, not the other way around.

Well now you're putting words in someone elses mouth, Aladya is merely comparing the power of the "finishers" that druids and monks have. They did in no way say they wanted LoD to behave exactly like mushrooms, they merely stated that is how a finisher should work in terms of power. A mushroom can get a monumental amount of healing whereas LoD which either has an 12 second ramp up time or a 6 second ramp up time with a 63k mana cost actually heals for a far less amount.

Ah... Re-reading his stuff, it's fair to assume that I might have misinterpreted his argument. I still believe the comparison between LoD and Mushroom isn't quite right... Urgh, WoWhead's PTR talent calculator won't show me druids, I can't remember if they changed druids to only allow the use of one mushroom or still 3. Moreover, are we comparing it to laying down three mushrooms and immediately detonating them or laying them down, banking them for a bit as they gain bonus healing, and then firing them? If it's the former case, then I agree that it shouldn't be able to perform better than LoD.

Also realistically the discussions going on here to be honest involve the viability of holy paladins at a heroic raiding level and to some extent normals. These are the only things that matter thus it is looking at how viable we are going to be when it comes down to it in SoO, which when you actually look at holy paladin performance during testing, its pretty poor. You are using 5.3 patch information to confirm your arguments when they don't apply anymore since one of the main mechanics to that healing is now gone.

This is generally why I avoid the topic of overall raid performance, and yet it sadly seemed to have been pushed in that direction. There's some discussion to be had about performance in the purest sense, but I'm much more interested in the discussion of mechanics and how things operate in proportion to eachother.

Urgh, this is exhausting, I'm going to need to take a break.

[Deleted]

Gonna repeat what others said during reglitchgate. There's no point derailing the discussion by conversing with people who aren't aware of our issues. Just don't reply to him amd keep it constructive.

[Xern]

Gonna repeat what others said during reglitchgate. There's no point derailing the discussion by conversing with people who aren't aware of our issues. Just don't reply to him amd keep it constructive.

Indeed, when you have to explain basic MoP Hpaladin issues (eg. spread out healing, hp generation...) that anyone who actually plays the class already knows you're just wasting your time.

I think there's some merit to be had about increasing the range of our aoe heals (Primarily Holy Radiance), but that raises the issue of it potentially being too effective (IE, if it were 40 yards, ostensibly hitting all players, then there's no risk of misuse and subsequently a higher risk of players spamming it into oblivion)

This is a perfect example of just how out of the game you currently are. We already spam HR just for the HP, and have for quite a while. Either learn how healing works now or just leave the thread, because you aren't helping anyone or contributing to a good discussion

[Floopa]

Erm... Okay, could you articulate your argument? The last chap provided a much clearer picture of his criticism, and provided examples.

Compare HPS between Megaera rampages vs Monks/Priests?
Compare HPS on Iron Qon when he's in his last phase vs Monks/Priests?

Paladin AoE is pretty bad.