"Players rarely argue for less convenience." - Ghostcrawler

[Frozenbeef]

then flying mounts in cataclysm

flying mounts were added at the start of tbc 0o

when people come up with valid reasons as to why lfd/ lfr should be removed then they would do it...however currently the best reason people can come up with is "it destroys the community/ social aspects of the game" which is bull poop in nearly every respect.

[championknight]

You portal directly to ToT quest hub... Is that port where you are sitting? No, but still a portal to it.

Forgot about that. Then again I can't take a portal by myself, at whatever location I am at, if I wanted to go to Thousand Needles or Westfall

Talking about Blizzard putting portals to every known place in game if ever

[fangless]

And again, while his statement is true, he picked a real crappy way/time to say what we all know. Is he actively trying to push people like the OP, and others like myself, away from the game? It sure seems like it with how he posted that. It seems like a "LFR is great and f*** you if you don't like it" kind of post. That kind of thing should be massively avoided by anyone in business ever, let alone a business who is bleeding people left and right these days.

That's most of their responses nowadays, to all things related to this game.


They're in triage mode at this point, trying to just keep people playing by making things as feel good as possible. Remove all the inconveniences, give out more items, get people into the rewards at all turns faster so they have that fuzzy feeling of getting items all the time. Blizzard is feeding us sugar for dinner, hoping that it'll keep us on that carrot stick.

What they apparently have forgot about their own game is that people need to feel like what they're doing is meaningful. All these small things they remove, over time, add up, and then nothing you do actually feels like you accomplished anything during your play session. Eventually after enough meaningless play sessions, you start to do less and less. Eventually you just decide to wait for the next patch, and eventually you just don't re-subscribe.

flying mounts were added at the start of tbc 0o

when people come up with valid reasons as to why lfd/ lfr should be removed then they would do it...however currently the best reason people can come up with is "it destroys the community/ social aspects of the game" which is bull poop in nearly every respect.

It doesn't seem hilarious that in a game about open worlds and exploration, that you just hit a button and instantly form up inside a dungeon? LFD would be much better if it made groups, but you still had to travel to the locations. Players are so lazy nowadays, they're tempered to expect things to be easy and smooth for them. As soon as you suggest that some easy feature should be adjusted, they get defensive.

[MoanaLisa]

And again, while his statement is true, he picked a real crappy way/time to say what we all know. Is he actively trying to push people like the OP, and others like myself, away from the game? It sure seems like it with how he posted that. It seems like a "LFR is great and f*** you if you don't like it" kind of post. That kind of thing should be massively avoided by anyone in business ever, let alone a business who is bleeding people left and right these days.

If he's anything at all like me, he would likely enjoy seeing the 'debate' about LFR, convenience and casual players go the fuck away. It can easily also be read as "LFR is fine like it is, not going anywhere, so let's talk about things that matter". It's a lot more interesting to think of things that could be in the game instead of this constant drone from a small group of people about removing something immensely popular that they don't happen to like.

[Deleted]

I wasnt saying LFR is a problem.

Im saying that such a collosal amount of forum discussion about 1 subject shows that something is wrong. Something needs addressing. It may just requitre a minimal tweak. But the truth is that LFR in its current state is not right.

Ru really trying to say that 2 years of constant and relentless forum discussion on 1 part of Wow shows that everything is going great?

Discussion of a topic does not mean that it's a problem, particularly when the majority of that discussion is positive. One person can repeatedly make threads about how much they hate LFR (as they often do here on MMO-C), and each one will invite a torrent of discussion - most of which has shown to be people disagreeing with the OP.

The only thing that the level of discussion indicates is that those who are unhappy with LFR are really adamant about it - except that if they cared as much as they say they do, they would've quit by now and not kept harping on about it for 2 years.

[brunnor]

And whine on forums is for the most part irrelevant. LFR is the new hate object for people who have a need to push others down in order to feel good about themselves. In vanilla it was the Unstoppable Force, in BC it was Badge gear that was clost to T6 in power, in WotLK it was easy heroics and in Cataclysm it was Dragon Soul and the 5-man heroics. If you take away LFR as that hate object they will move on to a new feature to hate on.

There will always be whiners. The smart thing to do is to plug your ears and ignore them.

So just ignoring problems is your answer? That isn't a good way to do things, in any aspect of life. People see a problem and address it. Those who the problem helps fight for it and say those of us complaining about it are whiners or are special snowflakes or anything to deflect the root of the problem on to us as people while completely ignoring the actual issue we talk about or the argument we use.

There are very few posts I see in which someone pro-LFR/"accessibility" has a well thought out and logical argument that doesn't revolve around insulting the poster. Don't get me wrong, there are some that make a good argument without being insulting, but there are tons who just do things like "ur no speical snowflak now lol loser" kind of posts and it makes your side just look awful. There are some on my side who do the same thing, but there don't seem to be as many. It might just be a proportional thing or something else, I don't know, just pretty classless imo.

[Durandro]

It doesn't seem hilarious that in a game about open worlds and exploration, that you just hit a button and instantly form up inside a dungeon? LFD would be much better if it made groups, but you still had to travel to the locations. Players are so lazy nowadays, they're tempered to expect things to be easy and smooth for them. As soon as you suggest that some easy feature should be adjusted, they get defensive.

No, it would suck. Having to wait for people is inconveniant and only serves to get people impatient and angry at each other. You still need to travel to the dungeon if you're doing Challenge Modes and Raids, so what's the big deal?

[Thetruth1400]

A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.

Just because the majority isn't saying anything doesn't mean they're all happy either. Judging by the subscription numbers, I'd say they're clearly not happy.

In terms of business, declining numbers mean a few things;
1) Your product no longer holds the attention of the consumer.
2) Your product isn't changing to meet the demands of the consumer.
3) Your product has changed too much to meet the demands of the consumer.
4) Your team is failing to listen to the consumer about what they want.

All in all, there are reasons that the game is falling from it's once glorious number of 12 million down to it's, as of march, 8.3 million. That's a 33% loss there. While you can't contribute it all to the overly convenient game play, it is a factor and Blizzard needs to start accepting that fact. If it weren't a factor, you wouldn't see people complaining about it.

[Vasti]

I think the tweet meant arguing for less personal convenience.

Most people complaining about LFR and LFD and whatnot would be convenienced (by misled epeen disorder) by having those things become more difficult so they can show-off more or otherwise benefit from that change in a very practical way. Whereas hardly anyone enjoying something calls for it to become more difficult.
Few people say that their class is to easy to play....that they want less bagspace, that they want higher repair costs.

my2cts

[Frozenbeef]

It doesn't seem hilarious that in a game about open worlds and exploration, that you just hit a button and instantly form up inside a dungeon? LFD would be much better if it made groups, but you still had to travel to the locations. Players are so lazy nowadays, they're tempered to expect things to be easy and smooth for them. As soon as you suggest that some easy feature should be adjusted, they get defensive.

It also seems hilarious that people can't see that wow has always been a easy/ newb friendly type of game especially in comparison with some older generation games...in previous mmos i played before wow ,quests didn't even exist you had to grind to level 100. People complaining about lfd/ lfr making the game easy are complaining about trivial things in comparison to how mmos once were.

I feel like my grandad -.- There are so many valid things for people to complain about ie. not having a dynamic world, not having anything to do outside raiding, the grind being too reliant on gear, players not being able to effect the world etc..but no.. people complain about a tiny thing such as being ported to a dungeon entrance 0o

[Agoonga]

The only thing that has been added in the last few years that I do not like at all is CRZ. No big complaints with any other additions right now.

[ACES]

I don't understand why anyone would argue against convenience.

[brunnor]

If he's anything at all like me, he would likely enjoy seeing the 'debate' about LFR, convenience and casual players go the fuck away. It can easily also be read as "LFR is fine like it is, not going anywhere, so let's talk about things that matter". It's a lot more interesting to think of things that could be in the game instead of this constant drone from a small group of people about removing something immensely popular that they don't happen to like.

It's hard to be positive and think about things that can be added to the game when something like LFR is still left in as is. LFR is, to me, what is wrong with the game currently. I'm not saying LFR itself is what is wrong, just all of what LFR IS is wrong. The ease of access, the no account-ability, the log in for 10 minutes and log off, the no work epics, etc. All of what LFR is is the issue, not LFR itself. LFR could work and the way LFR does work is Flex mode raiding pretty much. I do think Flex is their answer for fixing LFR and I hope it really does happen, but Flex is what I think LFR should be. An easier normal mode that doesn't require as much effort but does require some.

Maybe they fuck up Flex mode and make it horrible, I don't know, but I think Flex is what LFR should be and that would make a lot of players like myself happy if Flex became a permanent thing and LFR went away.

[Frogged]

For every person that starts a thread complaining about LFR, there are hundreds of replies disagreeing with that sentiment.

People who think LFR is a problem are the ones with their fingers in their ears.

Does the amount of people in support of an idea make it any more or less right or valuable? LFR could be a problem even if the entire population of WoW disagreed with that idea. It's about fact, not how many people you can get in support of your ideas.

I'm not stating that LFR is a problem as a fact. I'm simply stating you can't use the number of supporters as support for an argument.

[brunnor]

I don't understand why anyone would argue against convenience.

We argue against it because it takes away what being an MMORPG is. If I wanted an instant gratification game, I would go play one like that. I play an MMORPG to be immersed in the world and progress my character over time. Blizzard is trying too hard to bring all possible gamers to WoW rather than sticking to what made them popular and doing it really well. Farmville and Pokemon additions, while nice to some, aren't what an MMORPG is about. They have a place in the gaming world, just not together.

[Golden]

Personally, I wish they would just give the elitists what they want in WoW. WoW is approaching 9 years old. All you elitist should stay in WoW re-living your glory days. The rest of us will move on to newer games and we don't need all your negativity and toxic behavior to follow us.

[Ronduwil]

LFD would be much better if it made groups, but you still had to travel to the locations. Players are so lazy nowadays, they're tempered to expect things to be easy and smooth for them. As soon as you suggest that some easy feature should be adjusted, they get defensive.

We're talking about a game here! WoW isn't a construction project or ground-breaking research. Games are supposed to be pleasant. I don't understand people who expect games to be work. I honestly suspect that those people don't have enough work to do in real-life so they look to games to provide a sense of accomplishment. That's not what games are made for. Games are supposed to be a diversion from the onerous reality of day-to-day living. If you want to participate in an activity that demands honest effort and offers tangible rewards get a job or raise a family. Don't log into an online game and complain that it's not making you "work" hard enough.

[Phasma]

I think Ghostcrawler meant there is rarely constructive arguments for less convenience. He's right. You all need to come up with some better arguments. I've made mine, but I'm only one voice.

[brunnor]

..and you conviniently ignored: "Maybe there is no endless supply of consumers and the game is getting on in years"? WoW doesn't exist in a vacuum and newer games that had all the chances to the people who complained loudly on the forums have failed to even remotely meet WoW numbers.

While I don't debate your little list, it certainly goes on beyond 4 points. Now tell me: The forum (look at this thread) doesn't even speak with one voice. There are multiple opinions. For every complainer to an issue there is somebody sle who thinks that issue doesn't exist.

Who would you listen to. Are you the guy who automatically (as a designer) jumps at the people who complains and fixes there issues?

I've been waiting for this response as it happens in every thread. There is an endless supply of gamers. There are more gamers coming of age each year and there will be more next year. Gaming has become main stream and thus TONS of players flock to games daily. That can be older people finally accepting gaming or it can be kids growing up or anything in between. Nvidia did a random post about numbers of computer gamers over the years and we are at the all time high right now. To say that there aren't players now but there were 5 years ago is just plain dumb.

As a designer, if I were losing tons of players daily, I would look at the complaints and see why some people are leaving. People who say things are good and such aren't the ones leaving, thus their opinions, for the time, aren't overly important if you are trying to stop the bleeding. Personally, I'd toss up a ton of polls and such to try to find the reasons for people to stop playing. Toss them in the ingame mail system and give a pet or mount for completing the survey or some free game time, or something everyone actually wants to make sure it gets done by most people.

It just doesn't seem like they are trying anything. I guess that is what upsets me most. They aren't even acting like they have a problem. They are making it seem like they are prefect and have no faults ever. I would LOVE a post from GC or someone important just saying "We know there are some issues right now and are really working to try to make the game a better place for everyone. If you guys would just bare with us over the next little bit you'll see what we've been trying to get done". Anything like that would be much appreciated by almost everyone in the game. It doesn't say what is the problem or what they are working on or anything, it just says they are in fact aware of things going on, which it doesn't seem like they are at all.

[championknight]

I think Ghostcrawler meant there is rarely constructive arguments for less convenience. He's right. You all need to come up with some better arguments. I've made mine, but I'm only one voice.

During pre-WoLTK lots of people provided feedback Pallys being too good, some even did the math and what not to show it was. Then Blizzard countered it would balance out at 80 despite the numerous constructive threads (and non constructive) telling them no

Guess where that went...