Dev Ideas for Combat on PTR [Future Build]

[Warstar]

You a little sore because I pewpew'd your glyph idea? Anyway back on topic.

First off you clearly didn't read my post as I mentioned needing to fill the gap on the finishers lost would most likely result in an OP cd on a short cd. Not to mention you can't quantify how many finishers you get per AR, low ilvl will have less finishers vs high ilvl. How do you balance that?

As for energy capping? Have you played combat on the ptr or without the 4set? You don't cap outside of lust and sure it becomes tight during but. No one said it was going to be easy. Also cause you clearly have a problem understanding the basic concept of rogues, that energy capping is not a dps loss, only a potential dps loss. You don't hit 100% energy and suddenly lose 10k dps. You just lose the potential to gain dps, and we are talking silly litle % here.

And basically it comes down to being able to make the most of the situation and that often sorts the men from the boys.

P.s. I would hope you have 10 cp saved before going in to AR as it is.

Currently why the hell would you want to save combo points for adrenaline rush? You get absolutely no bonus to a finisher during adrenaline rush aside from getting more of them and would further the potential of energy capping popping AR and then dropping 2 eviscerates rather than popping AR on 0 cp and proceeding to sinister strike your combo points full.

Energy capping is a loss of dps. Not a potential loss of dps but an absolute loss. If you cap energy you are no longer regening energy and not regening energy means you're doing less abilities.

The problem with combat is that with absolutely stunning game play. With perfect conditions, not having to hold off on CDs, and super a super low ping you can play like a complete genius with game play that makes Stephen Hawking look like kid with downs syndrome. And what do you get? Out DPSed by the assassination rogue who screwed up his rotation a few times and was chatting with his GF through tells about what movie to go see after the raid. You then proceed to end the fight with lower dps, a tired hand from spamming and a crushed epeen. You bring less to a raid for more work. All these posts about "I like combat because I can't push a CD without thinking about it" are absolutely mind boggling retarded and all I see when I read this is "I like to mash buttons like a monkey but I'm better than you because I like not using an ability and lowering my dps because I have no idea what I'm talking about."

Combat has obvious flaws that need to be addressed. Class flavor that's bad flavor needs to be changed not kept just because it's unique to the class. If a class has a high skill cap it should have a higher dps potential because of it. Spamming buttons with a low ping is not skill thought it just means you can push a button fast. Things like not using KSP on a boss because it will kill you isn't a good class mechanic but a waste of dps. Things like AR + haste + bloodlust energy capping you are a bad mechanic and needs to be addressed. Having to lower the GCD is a bad mechanic because then players with a higher ping get completely screwed as well as the physical effects of sore wrists and broken keyboards. The gear scaling from leveling/fresh 90/max level gear is atrocious and currently and with the proposed changes makes combat absolutely horrible for anything outside of a very well geared character and completely screws it for everyone else and makes it even worse in PvP. It's pretty sad that on shadowcraft combat sims for so high and yet every fight falls 10s of thousands of DPS behind their theoretical dps compared to assassination where it's pretty easy to beat your simmed dps and usually at least meet it on a regular basis.

I think a lot of rogues here think that combat has a higher skill level than other specs and like to think that it makes them better to play it but in reality combat is really just mashing buttons faster and not using an ability and pulling in less numbers than other people.

Major changes need to be made to this class to bring it up to par not just these little band aid patches. None of them solve the core issues of the class and why they're falling behind.

[Deleted]

Always find combat abit of a spam rotation

[D3athsting]

Destro lock is fast paced, frost dk is fast paced, subtlety is fast paced, combat is just spammy

[Sesshou]

Well, they went through with it. I somehow doubt they will at this point, but I really, really hope they revert it... I don't want a super slow feeling combat outside of cooldowns... I remember how crap it felt at MoP launch at 90...

[Koji2k11]

Well, they went through with it. I somehow doubt they will at this point, but I really, really hope they revert it... I don't want a super slow feeling combat outside of cooldowns... I remember how crap it felt at MoP launch at 90...

well yeah they wont listen like always some many players told to how bad this is and it still went through

[Warstar]

Well, they went through with it. I somehow doubt they will at this point, but I really, really hope they revert it... I don't want a super slow feeling combat outside of cooldowns... I remember how crap it felt at MoP launch at 90...

Fierydemise has some raw sim date for your proposed combat changes (http://t.co/b0dyEezlzv). Combat's going to need more tbh.
Yeah to be fair, we haven't tuned the damage yet. Just focused on pacing. Bandit's Guile may need tweaking too. (Source)


So maybe maybe with the change it won't be too bad.

Still doesn't address the core issues of combat needing a buff though...

[Chult]

What if adrenaline rush did a flat damage increase which causes every one of your attacks to hit harder? Melee/main gauche which is the rogues top damage. Poisons. Sinister strike. And has the added benefit of not capping energy ever.

Because then it would be called Vendetta.

AR isn't the issue, the T15 4pc is. They need to nerf it, bump up Combat damage by regular means, and then balance Combat from there.

[shadowboy]

The set bonus isn't the issue. It's when the set bonus is coupled with AR. Decouple AR and SB and the set bonus is fine, play-wise, just underwhelming, damage-wise.

[Warstar]

Both combat and sub have a closer game play compared to assassination but sub unlike combat has cheaper more spammy abilities but during it's major dps cooldown (shadow dance) it actually slows down the game play going form 30 energy abilities to 60.

What if combat took a similar approach and kept its 40 energy sinister strike during a normal rotation and then switched to the slower harder hitting version during adrenaline rush. Similar to punching with a jab vs a hay maker.

The current change to 50 energy for SS makes combat absolute garbage for leveling up and at lower gear levels.

The biggest difference from combat to any other class at lower levels/less gear is the fact that both assassination and sub have energy regen built into an ability making haste a good stat for them both but also not having much haste isn't completely going to screw you over.

Along those lines combat could use some sort of ability maybe take out rupture and give them something else that aids in energy regen.

Currently combat seems very similar to old warriors and fire mages where at lower level they're just bad and need a ton of stats to be competitive which seems like a mechanic they really want to go away from... seems odd seeing that they'd want to put combat rogues into that class.

[finn]

Both combat and sub have a closer game play compared to assassination but sub unlike combat has cheaper more spammy abilities but during it's major dps cooldown (shadow dance) it actually slows down the game play going form 30 energy abilities to 60.

don't want to ruin your argument but last time i checked Backstab was at 35 and Ambush during a Dance was 40.

[Shinob1]

Ruthlessness - Gives your finishing moves a 20% chance per combo point to add a combo point to your target. Rogue - Combat Spec.
This does not work for SnD (nor Deadly Throw) on ptr.

Whereas for example:
Restless Blades - Your damaging finishing moves reduce the remaining cooldown of your Adrenaline Rush, Killing Spree, Redirect, Shadow Blades, and Sprint abilities by 2 sec per combo point.

[Coldkil]

Seriously.

It's fun how they still aren't realizing the combat problem is not about the spam itself, but about the tremendous energy regen rate we get that makes the rotation spammy. That's what needs to be addressed.

Assassination isn't spammy (well, it's slow) but because of no passive energy regen mechanics and because of haste being a "less desiderable" stat. Also, pooling energy and waiting is a crucial point of the rotation.

Subtlety isn't spammy, but has to deal with more finishers to manually refresh - they gave it energetic recovery; it isn't a x% more energy regen, it's a flat and costant flow of energy which makes the rotation more fluid and constant. Fast paced, short cooldowns.

Combat has haste as its main stat, combat potency, a cheap CP builder and AR couple wth SB. Well, how the hell didn't you expect that all this energy wouldn't have been too much?

"Haste will fix it". YEAH.

It's really time for a spec rework, and combat being the first one. It's been 8 years of SS spam literally at this point. Assa and Sub being relatively young as PvE specs reflect the difference in design, but combat is still sticked at what we did in Vanilla.

The problem again is way too much energy. Not a slower SS spam or a lower GCD will change that. Actually even with the 0.5 gcd we have too much energy.

- - - Updated - - -

Ruthlessness - Gives your finishing moves a 20% chance per combo point to add a combo point to your target. Rogue - Combat Spec.
This does not work for SnD (nor Deadly Throw) on ptr.

Whereas for example:
Restless Blades - Your damaging finishing moves reduce the remaining cooldown of your Adrenaline Rush, Killing Spree, Redirect, Shadow Blades, and Sprint abilities by 2 sec per combo point.

Don't get the point - are you pointing about the not entirely clear wording of Ruthlessness?

[Shinob1]

SnD used to be able to proc Ruthlessness back in the day. On latest versions it got nerfed. I was hoping for a comeback of the old(er) version.

[zerynax]

Well, Blizz went through with the 50 energy - 190% weapon dmg change to SS.
Problem: Dps went down due to less finishers, less CD's due to previous fact and so on.
It's so annoying looking at Blizz trying to slow down Combat by just increasing the energy cost of our CP builder, as other people mentioned, it will hurt anyone without 530+ I.level, and even those at those levels will feel how much slower it is.
And with slower I mean worse, yes, you won't get Carpal Tunnel except maybe during lust+CD's, but you will also drop a fair deal of dps.
As it stands right now, I'd rather take a slight energy regen nerf and a flat % dmg done increase over all the other weird band-aid fixes they are doing....

We're already behind even with near-perfect gameplay -.-

[Sesshou]

Fierydemise has some raw sim date for your proposed combat changes (http://t.co/b0dyEezlzv). Combat's going to need more tbh.
Yeah to be fair, we haven't tuned the damage yet. Just focused on pacing. Bandit's Guile may need tweaking too. (Source)


So maybe maybe with the change it won't be too bad.

Still doesn't address the core issues of combat needing a buff though...

No, that is irrelevant. They haven't done balancing yet, so numbers (and that entire quote) are irrelevant. My post was about the change ruining the feel of combat by making it play slow as crap outside of cooldowns. They could increase SS to be 5000% damage and our dps would be amazing, but it would still ruin the faster pace of combat.

Don't get the point - are you pointing about the not entirely clear wording of Ruthlessness?

No, I think his point is that if it doesn't work on every type of finisher, it is a piss poor attempt to make up for the large number of lost combo points due to SS costing more. But he is questioning the wording because he thinks this is unintentional.

[fierydemise]

Fierydemise has some raw sim date for your proposed combat changes (http://t.co/b0dyEezlzv). Combat's going to need more tbh.
Yeah to be fair, we haven't tuned the damage yet. Just focused on pacing. Bandit's Guile may need tweaking too. (Source)


So maybe maybe with the change it won't be too bad.

Still doesn't address the core issues of combat needing a buff though...

The topline numbers are the least relevant part of that post. The important part is looking at how the changes interacts with 4pc which shows the fundamental problem with the changes. Combat remains super spammy during T15 4pc and gets slower outside which is as I think I said in that post exactly opposite of what combat needs.

[Chult]

The topline numbers are the least relevant part of that post. The important part is looking at how the changes interacts with 4pc which shows the fundamental problem with the changes. Combat remains super spammy during T15 4pc and gets slower outside which is as I think I said in that post exactly opposite of what combat needs.

Agreed. The simply need to break the 4pc and tune Combat around not having it going into next tier. It's frankly not all that spammy outside of CD's due to the 4pc, and would make people interested in upgrading to the T16.

[Nosferato]

well i like it, it was kinda getting out of hand, cause combat had become a spec wich had very high uptime of cd, and very little downtime

[Deleted]

I still think the overall damage will drop, you will see less SS being casted and more focus to keep rupture / SnD up thus giving less uptime on Evis outside of CD's I rely dont like the idea having 100 energy and your spells cost half your bar

SS >> SS >> SnD >> wait >> SS >> wait >> wait SS >> wait wait etc.

Then again I have yet to see the stats of the heroic BiS gear to see how much haste we will get to see how much energy we will get.

[zerynax]

It is a fundamental class issue when they balance a spec solely around end-expansion HC raid gear secondary stat levels...

Although I know the numbers are not even remotely tuned as of right now Blizz is trying to tackle this the wrong way (I personally don't have any brilliant ideas, but several other people posted some really good ideas in this thread)