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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Correct, yet they still make decisions based on this "minority" feedback.

    That's infuriating. They really do listen to who cries the loudest.
    ITT: folks who have no idea about how polling works.

  2. #242
    So freaking what, you're a lead game designer you're suppose to have vision. This is such a ridiculous comment.


    This just show's you can't think past what you can see, this is a big sign of you having no imagination and having no vision that would create greater depth and It makes me want to get out of this Blizzard ship as fast as possible though still hoping that I don't have too. How WoW xp 5, D3 xp2 and Project titan will be handled and directed will tell me if its time to put the nails in the blizzard coffin.

    You can suck up to as many people as you want to keep them playing but that doesn't mean you'll make new fans. Ugh... I can't freaking believe this guy was in charge of the game for 4 years!!! I think Samwise would do a much better job than him, given that he doesn't transform to some cynical prick and lose real ideals.
    Last edited by Philosopino; 2013-07-16 at 05:11 PM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Hjelpen View Post
    yes, like 1% of the playerbase have been complaining about wow being too casual. the rest is totally fine with it.

    blizzard dont care about some whiners on the offical forum/mmo champ.
    Which is super, duper, cooper hilarious because when I write a GM ticket they generally give me the cut and paste of "sorry we cannot help you with you problem, but please fill free to post on forums, to make changes to the game." Funny.

    I'll say that yes, the minority complains and most just play the game. But again, if I'm always referred to forums for changes or suggestions then who do they listen to?

  4. #244
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    What, do you want them to be psychic ? They made a miscalculation.

    Subs were going up more/faster in BC when there was a higher barrier to entry. They probably saw raid/dungeon activity have a sharp decline and attributed it to ease of access, and figured it wouldn't level off as quickly if it took longer to get there in the first place. But they overshot the mark (or perhaps more accurately, had too steep a slope -- jumping from fairly easy normal dungeons into the launch heroic 5-players and normal raids without any way to bridge the gap), and they reacted to the fallout.
    That miscalculation was based on a significant forum response of 'too convenient', 'too easy'. They listened to those complaints and forgot about all those who were logged into the game doing what was available.

    That's not the same as saying those 'too convenient, too easy' players were wrong. It's saying they forgot about the players they had by design or otherwise catered to, and didn't provide them with new content in Cataclysm. It doesn't matter how "bad" or "casual" or whatever other derogatory term you want to brand them with, but they were actually smart enough to realise that the game was no longer catering to them, so they left because it was apparent they were going to see a whole expansion with nothing for them.

    The mistake wasn't making Heroics hard. The popularity of Challenge Modes and Hard Mode raids are testament to that. The mistake was not offering an easier alternative with lesser rewards that at least gave players something to do. The knee-jerk about face was as much a mistake, because that stripped away content from those who remained who relished the challenge.

    Removing any level of difficulty of content is always going to be a mistake as it always deprives someone of their content. That's what it's about, not whether it's too easy or too hard; it's whether players have something to do at their level. That's why the game needs Flex, and it needs new 5 man content on as regular a basis as it does new raids.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-07-16 at 04:49 PM.

  5. #245
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSteveBrule View Post
    Correct, yet they still make decisions based on this "minority" feedback.

    That's infuriating. They really do listen to who cries the loudest.
    No, they don't. If they did listen to those who bitch and complain the most on forums LFR would be long gone.
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  6. #246
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    No, they don't. If they did listen to those who bitch and complain the most on forums LFR would be long gone.
    Actually, they've said countless times it's not a vote. Just 1 well constructed idea from one player can be enough to make a design change. You don't get a smaller minority than that.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Well, I don't know if it really was based on a player idea, but there was this prescient poster who got Flex Raiding right, down to the name, way before it was announced. :P
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  8. #248
    If it's any consolation, millions of people also happen to like Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga. Not only is the majority often wrong, but often its taste can be quite awful. That said, Blizzard is a business; and the majority of today is the one it panders to.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Kripparian's idea for additional levels for diablo3 (paragon levels).

    Yeah, that ain't much, and the dude is more than just a dude, an internet persona with loads of fans etc. But the point still stands.

  10. #250
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Actually, they've said countless times it's not a vote. Just 1 well constructed idea from one player can be enough to make a design change. You don't get a smaller minority than that.
    Tell that to DrSteveBrule who seems to believe that whiners get to dictate the boundaries of the game. I'm quite firmly of the point of view that Blizzard listens too much to the forums and should just design the game they want to design and take the consequences up or down.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  11. #251
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Has Blizzard ever indicated that one game-changing feature was suggested by any one player?

    No.

    So what's the point of the question? And what does 'game-changing' mean specifically?
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  12. #252
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Tell that to DrSteveBrule who seems to believe that whiners get to dictate the boundaries of the game. I'm quite firmly of the point of view that Blizzard listens too much to the forums and should just design the game they want to design and take the consequences up or down.
    There's a difference between whine and a well constructed idea and case for it. I like to think most people can tell the difference between the two. Sometimes mistakes will be made, however. Cataclysm says it all.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Has Blizzard ever indicated that one game-changing feature was suggested by any one player?

    No.

    So what's the point of the question? And what does 'game-changing' mean specifically?
    Well, to be fair, Diablo III did get Paragon levels based off of a player suggestion. :P

    But this is WoW we're talking about, so I can't specifically comment on that... but there are several inferences (such as Firelands nerfing/ casual content design in the following patch, ect...) that can be strongly pointing at player suggested feedback in one way/shape/form.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    Can you name one game changing feature that was based off of this?
    Depends on what you mean by game changing. Things like brawlers guild, challenge modes, scenarios, and proving ground have all been discussed by the player base years before their introduction with some of them only now coming out after eight years of some players pushing for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celticmoon View Post
    No company (no matter what they like to sugar coat us with) is going to remove a feature that is liked and used by majority of their player base. That's not good for business.
    Have Group Will Travel would like a word with you. Just like dungeons which used to be used by a majority as a mainstay it has effectively been gutted and replaced with something else that has shinnier rewards. If Blizzard wanted to do such to LFR they could especially now that we have many more alternatives than we had back in Cata and Blizzard has shown that they can produce these alternatives, but probably wont happen because LFR is a gear hungry beast that needs such a large population just to function and would likely result in cross battle group queuing. Blizzard basically is forced to keep LFR highly popular due to its population requirements. Sadly there are still players who do not even have LFR as an option due to lack of players during certain times of the week.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-07-16 at 06:19 PM.

  15. #255
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Large corporate entities often believe the feedback they want to believe and discount the rest. I've always believed that the way Cataclysm was set up was exactly how the top guys at Blizzard wanted the game to be based on what they read about Wrath heroics being too easy. Even GC's blog about dungeons being hard was pretty much an eloquent plea that more difficult group content was more engaging and fun than otherwise. Of course all anyone got out of it was L2P! That's another problem with Blizzard: they believe their player base to be better (in many senses) than it really is.

    It was a lesson hard-earned in Irvine of course.

    I'm fine with the way the game is set up now with a little something for everyone. I do wish there was much less BS on the forums about how the game should only be one thing but that's me. I still think that Blizzard should build the game they want and leave it to whatever happens. The shifting back and forth and constant changes during Cataclysm did more harm than good and made it very easy for people on either side of the difficulty/convenience side to simply say, "OK, I'm done."
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post

    It was a lesson hard-earned in Irvine of course.
    Which was to offer options. Cata was very lean and was set up to funnel players into heroics who normally wouldnt have been there in the first place which screwed over everyone else. The average player base is not that bad or other wise every heroic would have been a fail compared to the vast majority of my solo queues being successful. The act of removing normal modes and greatly increasing the rewards from heroics resulted in players who wouldnt even touch WotLK heroics to make their way into Cata heroics and drag groups down. Blizzard gutted grinds severely in Cata. Cata is the first time that non-raiders consumed content within a month or two in large numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I'm fine with the way the game is set up now with a little something for everyone. I do wish there was much less BS on the forums about how the game should only be one thing but that's me. I still think that Blizzard should build the game they want and leave it to whatever happens. The shifting back and forth and constant changes during Cataclysm did more harm than good and made it very easy for people on either side of the difficulty/convenience side to simply say, "OK, I'm done."
    If Blizzard was to build the game they want and you say that Cata was Blizzard ignoring feedback they did not want to hear then Cata is the type of game that the developers wanted to make. Obviously there would of been more launch content which was due to development resource mistakes that are not the fault of the raiders despite how many like to blame the raiders for lack of non-raid endgame.

    From GCs tweets, what is talked about is the belief is that players will have more fun in group based content that involves teamwork and these players are more likely to be long term players due to building friendships. Cata showed that you cant just throw people into the fire, but interestingly enough Blizzard has gotten players who profusely claimed in Cata that casuals cant get out of fire or should be expected to and the developers are now getting players to navigate a maze. Baby steps and hopefully both Flex and proving grounds can lead the way.

    The back and forth has a strong impact as it did for me going from liking Cata to being bored as shit in MoP despite my game play time not changing and being a handful of hours a week. A large number of casuals wasnt quitting in Cata due to lack of engaging content, they might has as well have found Cata to be fun in comparison. The flip flop does no good. Seems the developers are realizing this and trying to keep changes to certain things by introducing them into small chunks like Flex mode and others without trying to shove the whole population into it.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-07-16 at 07:26 PM.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuel View Post
    So apparently people on the forums only account for a small minority of the playerbase? Well then why on earth did blizz listen to the forum complainers in 4.1 and decide to nerf all the heroics...
    You realize blizzard has success rate data, correct? I guess not since you just posted what you posted.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    100% agreed.

    When I joined a more "hardcore" guild, I just stopped giving a crap about LFR all together.

    It shouldn't matter to us.
    If your guild is really "hardcore" I assume you are required to have alts raid ready. You are pretty much required to do LFR to gear up New alts to get evne close to being raid ready. Also when Blizzard make the final tier (5.4) have some retardedly OP trinkets, you are pretty much required to grab them just incase you need them, or for some classes, Tier Sets too.

    I dont mind that MR Average joe killed LFR Lei shen, I just want to make sure he is aware that there is a much harder difficulty that others are completing and that he could also complete if he wanted to try hard enough. It just feels like blizzard is okay with Casuals being ignorant of HC raiding, hiding away HC raiding from casuals so to speak.

    Bassically, If I want to push as hard as I can in HC raids, I am gonna be required to LFR for trinkets/set bonus / gearing alts, but if MR Average Joe wants to kill lei shen LFR while being afk and biting his toe nails, he is not required to do HC raiding at all.
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  19. #259
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    From GCs tweets, what is talked about is the belief is that players will have more fun in group based content that involves teamwork and these players are more likely to be long term players due to building friendships. Cata showed that you cant just throw people into the fire, but interestingly enough Blizzard has gotten players who profusely claimed in Cata that casuals cant get out of fire or should be expected to and the developers are now getting players to navigate a maze. Baby steps and hopefully both Flex and proving grounds can lead the way.
    a couple of variables really made the level 85 tunings toxic -

    LFD - if lfd had existed in TBC, heroics there would have been impossible to complete in an LFD group. it was bad enough filling up a pug with randoms on your own server. you cannot have marked-pull, cc-required, kill-order and aggro-mgmt in a pug where you have no control over who groups with you, and no social accountability mechanisms whatsoever.

    WOTLK - even 3.0.2 heroics were all-aoe, all the time. I don't think they increased heroic trash dmg from tbc levels, numerically. cloth could pull aggro and survive a few whacks. boss mechanics, with very few notable exceptions, could be simply ignored and overpowered/healed through. - and this was at release - by late wotlk, it was literally nothing but a speed race. 2 years of playerbase turnover with this model meant a lot of the playerbase skillset was collectively lost.
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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    Because what is happening on the forums is a miniscule part of the whole picture, but it is all that you see.
    People who use the forums tend to be the only people who care enough about the game to voice their opinions and try to make a difference.

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