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  1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Dailies, Heroic scenarios, and dungeons have plenty of available globals, which is more what I was getting at.
    I tried a haste build out last night on the PTR using Judge-HS-HR since I only lowered my GCD down to a little above 4.5 and it does seem fun and more fast paced, maybe because it's fairly different from how we're used to healing. Would definitely be something interesting to try in those situations as they may require some more DPS output from healers. Raid-wise tho as it's been stated the minimal amount of mana saved vs losing the 100K+ heal from HR just doesn't seem worth it. Rather would gem to keep using the same healing style we used currently. Perhaps speccing some in to haste to lower our HS CD to a value which would sync with more or less exactly two HR casts and putting the rest in to mastery along with going Sacred Shield (affected by haste too) would be something raid viable but certainly doesn't seem like a good compensation for losing Illuminated Healing. Maybe they could add a buff to judging such as increasing our overall healing by x% for the next xs, increasing LoD/WoG/EF healing, causing judged targets to receive more healing, causing judgement to reduce our spell mana costs. That would make Selfless Healer more attractive to raiding than simply giving 1 HP and a heal later that will be a huge chunk overheal.

  2. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I don't think it sounds fun. It looks like it does nothing but make a clunky rotation in our playstyle. It is also looks like you are going to be wasting to many globals on none/single-target healing spells to actually do much effective healing.
    Sounds like you haven't even given it a chance.

  3. #1243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    Sounds like you haven't even given it a chance.
    I know the game well enough to know using that many globals not doing effective healing to get HP for weak LoD isn't going to amount to much.

  4. #1244
    I'm sorry, but it appears I'm missing something. Are high-end holy paladins *actually* taking Glyph of Battle Healer?

  5. #1245
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    No he's not even doing that.

    First of all doing HS(1.5 sec gcd)+Judge(1.5 sec gcd)+FoL(1.5 sec) is actually 4.5 seconds instead of 3 seconds.
    2nd you can do HS(1.5 sec cd)+CS(1.5 sec cd)+HR(50% chance its gcd,50% chance its 2.5 secs) that's also 4.5 secs or at most 5.5 seconds. Per total in a fight(that you can melee on), the difference in Holy Power gained is insignificant. Both are reduced by haste equally( 2nd actually a little more since HR has a bigger castime then FoL) so don't bring haste in the equation.
    So how many fights in ToT could you consistently get that rotation off? By no means am I trying to justify this talent but what you just said literally asked for the perfect situation in the raid. FoL is also .9 second cast time with 1 SH proc. SH talent can consistently Generate 3 holy power 2-4 seconds faster then HS, HR, HR. Also to rely on a infusion of light proc is just silly. You can not sit there and tell me they are even close in holy power generation.
    Last edited by Virsta1; 2013-07-16 at 09:57 PM.

  6. #1246
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    You mean the content I go ret for?

    I'd rather have something raid viable.
    Well luckily for you, you haven't lost any raid viable talents from 5.3.

  7. #1247
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Well luckily for you, you haven't lost any raid viable talents from 5.3.
    Except for the gutted EF?
    Living the casual life, oh yeah.

  8. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Well luckily for you, you haven't lost any raid viable talents from 5.3.
    Seriously? What are you even trying to argue?

  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    Except for the gutted EF?
    EF still appears to be raid viable, although I agree the tier as a whole has lost significant power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Seriously? What are you even trying to argue?
    I'm not arguing anything, but I see no reason to get upset about a buffed talent - there are much larger concerns, not that you don't already know that. My post that you went after, was simply stating my opinion that SH could be fun in certain aspects of the game (I even expressed that I was extremely skeptical that it would be raid viable). What were you arguing when you expressed your opinion that you would rather go ret? Let's just drop it actually lol.

  10. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    EF still appears to be raid viable, although I agree the tier as a whole has lost significant power.



    I'm not arguing anything, but I see no reason to get upset about a buffed talent - there are much larger concerns, not that you don't already know that. My post that you went after, was simply stating my opinion that SH could be fun in certain aspects of the game (I even expressed that I was extremely skeptical that it would be raid viable). What were you arguing when you expressed your opinion that you would rather go ret? Let's just drop it actually lol.
    I am not upset about a buffed talent. We are discussing viability of these talents in raids and I am stating my opinion that Selfless healer is not raid viable.

    I also never said I would rather go ret. You mentioned non raid content that you do not even need a healer for(dailies and heroic scenarios for instance) and I said I go ret for those. Because seriously why would anyone care about viable talents for healing scenarios? You can heal that crap with 0 talents.

  11. #1251
    Deleted
    As long as pala mastery stays this way it will encourage overhealing and ofc if you spam HR to get shields and HP`s you will have mana problems. Also now that paladins don't have a proper way of stacking shields for 45 how will the playstyle change? Assuming there is no constant dmg keeping shields for more then 15 seconds would probably mean you have to use ur hp for loh and then track the shields and duration and try to refresh them with HR. Because i don't really see how can paladins compete with other healers when they lack the tools.

    Also being in melee to use cs is often not optimal for your raid because of the spells that cant target melees but will target you, not to say the 15% chance you won't land the cs.

  12. #1252
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I don't think it sounds fun. It looks like it does nothing but make a clunky rotation in our playstyle. It is also looks like you are going to be wasting to many globals on none/single-target healing spells to actually do much effective healing.
    Not to mention that if you happen to get out of range of the boss or you switch targets for any reason, you could be wasting time trying to move into range targeting an enemy. All of this is time spent not healing the raid, which in heroics is a significant disadvantage for our class.

    I really like the idea of Eternal Flame just adding a HOT component to Light of Dawn and Word of Glory. Or Blizzard can stop being stubborn and just give us Eternal Flame baseline. Did I miss the excuse they made for why they refuse to do this?

    People also need to stop comparing the speed with which SH will let you build Holy Power now. It doesn't matter how fast you can build Holy Power if the finisher is complete garbage. A lot of fights are spread healing and Light of Dawn's target cap is hilariously small, and Word of Glory is just a slightly faster and free Flash of Light. That's why I suggested adding a component to Selfless Healer that either increases the range and target cap of LoD, or making it heal for an extra amount. If Blizzard is going to make us ditch our best Holy Power finisher for Selfless Healer, they need to make our baseline finishers worth using then.
    Last edited by IxilaFA; 2013-07-16 at 10:45 PM.

  13. #1253
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I know the game well enough to know using that many globals not doing effective healing to get HP for weak LoD isn't going to amount to much.
    So you're not even giving it a chance? Lol. Are you also crusader striking for HP? because that's a global that doesn't do healing. From reading what you post, I feel like you won't be happy until EF refreshes IH again, which more than likely won't happen.

    Honestly if you're not even going to try something/test it out before complaining about it then why bother even posting about it? You're not giving any constructive criticism, just "I don't like it and it looks dumb because GCDs". That's not really helpful. Waiting to test it in actual raid, then coming here and saying "it doesn't help our HPS because I'm spending too many GCDs on it - here are my logs" would have a lot more validity to it. Right now, you really have nothing to back up what you're saying except speculation. Yes I have played this game for a long time too, yes I understand that GCDs not used for healing might not be optimal, but I'm being open minded in what Blizzard is trying to give us, rather than being whiny before even trying it.

    It's the same as saying you hate a food even though you've never tried it. We all have our theories about SH, but let's give it a chance, test it out in a raid, and then come back and talk about what's good and bad.
    Last edited by Lumineux; 2013-07-16 at 10:52 PM.

  14. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Not to mention that if you happen to get out of range of the boss or you switch targets for any reason, you could be wasting time trying to move into range targeting an enemy. All of this is time spent not healing the raid, which in heroics is a significant disadvantage for our class.

    I really like the idea of Eternal Flame just adding a HOT component to Light of Dawn and Word of Glory. Or Blizzard can stop being stubborn and just give us Eternal Flame baseline. Did I miss the excuse they made for why they refuse to do this?
    Hots don't fit our toolkit was GC's statement on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    So you're not even giving it a chance, lol. Are you also crusader striking for HP? because that's a global that doesn't do healing. From reading what you post, I feel like you won't be happy until EF refreshes IH againg, which more than likely won't happen.

    Honestly if you're not even going to try something/test it out before complaining about it then why bother even posting about it? You're not giving any constructive criticism, just "I don't like it and it looks dumb because GCDs". That's not really helpful.
    I use CS if I can and if I have the free global.

    You can go ahead and be rude and make stupid assumptions, but it is common sense why I know it will not be raid viable in its current form. If you fail to see that it isn't my problem. Anyone who actually thinks that HS-Judgment-FoL on beacon target-LoD will result in good numbers obviously hasn't been playing the game. Even for the times you HR for the third HP, you are still going to do suboptimal numbers.

    Btw I am actually giving reasons why it isn't going to be viable(and no I didn't say "because it is dumb"). You are giving nothing on why you think it will be. Not helpful at all.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-16 at 10:56 PM.

  15. #1255
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I am not upset about a buffed talent. We are discussing viability of these talents in raids and I am stating my opinion that Selfless healer is not raid viable.
    I agree, and GC has already stated that they accept that it (SH) won't be an attractive option for Holy PvE. This is why I don't understand why we're hung up on it. It will be "more fun in content that you might be interested in using it in" than it was, that's the end of my argument.

    The SH buff is an extremely minor change, and I sure hope there are more major changes yet to come - SS is still not competitive imo, and if our % buffs, SoB change, and GoAK change are supposed to be our "EF compensation" then we are still in a world of hurt

  16. #1256
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    Hots don't fit our toolkit was GC's statement on it.
    Yet every other class has at least one HOT that's baseline? Doesn't make any sense. Every healer class should have at least one HOT that they can utilize during HOT-centric fights, which SoO seems to be filled with.

  17. #1257
    Deleted
    It makes me sad that they've fucked us so much that we're reduced to infighting here over irrelevant scraps due to utter frustration with the spec.

  18. #1258
    Oggy, I was thinking the same thing yesterday.

    My fellow paladins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRGd0gD0QNE
    Living the casual life, oh yeah.

  19. #1259
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Yet every other class has at least one HOT that's baseline? Doesn't make any sense. Every healer class should have at least one HOT that they can utilize during HOT-centric fights, which SoO seems to be filled with.
    Basically this, the only class that does not actively use a HOT is Disc Priests which they have targeted, directed absorbs (instead of blanket absorbs on heals). And even they actually have a baseline HOT, they just don't use it in most scenarios.

    Shamans aren't a "HOT class" but they have HOT healing. Paladins are I guess supposed to be an "absorb class" but we just lost the absorb, not the actual HOT.

  20. #1260
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    I agree, and GC has already stated that they accept that it (SH) won't be an attractive option for Holy PvE. This is why I don't understand why we're hung up on it. It will be "more fun in content that you might be interested in using it in" than it was, that's the end of my argument.

    The SH buff is an extremely minor change, and I sure hope there are more major changes yet to come - SS is still not competitive imo, and if our % buffs, SoB change, and GoAK change are supposed to be our "EF compensation" then we are still in a world of hurt
    If he stated that, it was a long time ago. He said they are trying to make the other two options in that tier more attractive for Holy. If he accepts SH isn't for us, then resources need to stop going to buffing it for us so we can get real fixes.

    I am thinking if we get anything else, it won't be until after 25m testing or at least until they take LH off EF again so Paladins can actually test the changes properly.

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