The lore of 5.4 is so bad...

[mtvoelker]

You're choosing to complain about writing in 2013? It's been well established since 1999 Metzen can't write.

Of Blood and Honor begs to differ.

[Mocha]

guess i misread that tweet. still that only adds on an extra year. 5 years isnt enough to rebuild an entire species

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its been stated many times that humans and orcs make up the bulk the alliance and horde military.

the majority of playable races are all nearly extinct.

on the alliance side there is

worgen

draenei

and gnomes

You can keep saying Orcs and Humans make up the bulk of their faction, but I have never read that, nor could I find anything to back that up. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but I need something more then you just saying it. Plus, have we actually been told how much of the Orc race chose to follow Garrosh? If you admit that most races are low pop, then I don't see that big of an imbalance between factions, even after the siege. Not to mention that sheer numbers does not always equal winning. I mean, come on, you guys can't even fix Stormwind's gate or park and its been at least a year...you're really going to defeat the remainder of the Horde?

[zanzan28]

1. Orcs do not make up the majority of the Horde military. Orcs however do make up the majority of the Kor'kron Elite.

2. Even if the majority of Orcs sided with Garrosh, the orcs only comprise 1 of 7 Horde races, hardly a majority.

3. The Alliance is more united then ever, I do have to give him that.

4. I would argue that the majority of the Horde is more united then ever under a new common cause to rid them of Garrosh, and are far from broken. I have absolutely no clue as to where he gets that the majority of its forces are dead. Even with heavy deaths from the siege it would hardly be a majority.

5. Is purely his opinion, and mine is that he is wrong.

1) Orcs very much DO make up the majority of the Horde military-think about numbers and locations-most NPCS on Pandaria were Orcs right? The ORCS were the one who helped the Undead correct? The Orcs have the warchief and hold the capital city right?

2) Large Majority of the Orcs sided with Garrosh-even if there are 7 more races-think about numbers again. Trolls dont have that many numbers-maybe a few thousand? Two or three thousand at most? Then Blood Elves population was almost completely eradicated by the undead in the Third war. Undead and Tauren I'll give you that-but they are still both weaker than the Orcs. Pandaren? There are at most 50 of these guys in the Horde, and another 50 in the Alliance. It's not about races-its about numbers.

3) Yep. More unified.

4) Undead and Blood Elves are fighting. Blood Elves almost leave the Horde. Undead don't care for anyone. Tauren and Trolls are the only ones untied.

5) Is purely your opinion and mine is that YOU are wrong.

[Elegant]

In the words of Wrathion: "A divided Azeroth cannot possibly stand against the darkness." Let's say Varian did destroy the horde, which would most likely give Sylvanas the most forces out of everyone (just sayin'). The Burning Legion could return to Azeroth, that's pretty much GG right there. Alliance loses to the legion or wins (losing many) and Sylvanas has too large of an army to win afterwards. You can't count Bolvar in this as the Varian is unaware of his survival.

Lastly, why would Varian care what Wrathion says? He might not, but Anduin will acknowledge his words with caution and would persuade his father otherwise.

[Jester Joe]

I mean, come on, you guys can't even fix Stormwind's gate or park and its been at least a year...you're really going to defeat the remainder of the Horde?

Blizzard has said this is due to it would take away time from the art team to rebuild Stormwind rather than Alliance not having the power to.

Also, the best I can find to add for the population is this other thread from a bit back.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ke-(Lore-wise)
Where the general agreement is that orcs are the largest part of the Horde. There's no set numbers, but there is general ideas, and hints.

More on topic, I don't really think the lore is bad, I can't pass judgment yet on something not fully released, but honestly I think it's shaping up great. Some people expect apparently Alliance to slam the Horde hard but like it's been mentioned before, that would be sorta odd to have the Alliance act more like the Horde and kick someone when their down, although I expect Jaina to say something about Varian just leaving afterwards.

[skrump]

I think maybe Varian realizes that the horde is not entirely evil.

Even if it is poor storytelling it does open up a bath for blizzard to unhinge the races from their prospective faction thus allowing certain races to be a member of whatever faction they choose "should blizz ever decide to do so to squeeze more milk from the cash cow"

But yeah I could easily see blizz resorting to allowing humans/orcs to be a member of either faction in the future (along with several other potential races)

[SL1200]

Yes It's horrible. The entire expansion's lore has been awful. I don't think it's nearly as bad from an Alliance pov though, just Allies being complainers as per usual.

[Elexo]

Curious to find out what kind of deux ex machina they'll pull out of their butts to get the Alliance out of Orgrimmar after this is all over.
I'm not expecting anything good, most of Blizzard's lore has always been so-so or plain out bad with the occasional gem every now and then.

Unless the final cutscene involves the new enemies for the next expac I don't see any reason for talks of peace just yet.

[PuppetShowJustice]

Let's not make assumptions about the ending before it actually happens.

in all fairness look at how Cataclysm ended.

[Rumred]

Am I the only one who finds it ridiculous that the entire lore of 5.4 is summed up with "Varian practically conquers the Horde (a faction has been murdering his people and invading his lands for MANY YEARS) by killing and dethroning their Warchief with the help of some rebels, and then decides to let his biggest enemy pick a new Warchief and continue invading his land and threatening to destroy the Alliance."? How is that logical in any way? What nation would give their enemies an opportunity to gain in strength and gain power again? And doesn't this basically force the Horde to "kiss up" to the alliance from now on?

In reality, if blizz were to make this lore work, they would have had to make the Horde collapse, which obviously wouldn't happen (And this is coming from a Horde player).

What nation would give their enemies a opportunity to gain power again? Guess you never looked into WWI and its outcome and how it was in the quote of a general at the time not a peace treaty but a twenty year cease fire.

[The Madgod]

Yes It's horrible. The entire expansion's lore has been awful. I don't think it's nearly as bad from an Alliance pov though, just Allies being complainers as per usual.

One word: Metzen.

WoW lore has been pretty much dogshit since Cata so.

Only lore of 5.4 is bad? The whole fucking game suck now thanks to the greedy fucks at Blizzard. Can't wait, no matter how long it takes, till Blizzard shuts this shit game down.

If you can't say why it's bad and just say it is so I'm more inclined to listen to a peanut's opinion on the subject.

You can say that you didn't like it till the cows come home, I really couldn't care less... but to say something is technically bad? You should put up some evidence. Just saying something is bad (or good, for that matter) without saying why ultimately is just as constructive as conversing with a peanut over what it thinks about a video game's story.

Trolls never had to kill Vol'jin. Tauren never had to kill Cairne. Humans never had to grind SI:7 operatives and the Royal Guard once a week because they suddenly gained a taste for baby meat.

These are Orgrimmar orcs. Some people might be able to wave it aside by saying that they're Blackrocks under the armor, but the armor is Orgrimmar armor. The banners are Orgrimmar banners. The city is Orgrimmar, that is the Horde, and the boss is the Warchief.

And I never liked killing the Blackrocks anyway.

Good storytelling is hardly ever fair.

Ultimately out of all of the races in the game it is the orcs who would be the most likely to have a strong political divide due to the two rather polar camps that an orc will typically be in: The orcs who believe that their actions as part of the Horde from Draenor till the end of the second war were terrible and that they should return to their shamanistic roots and the orcs who thrive in the bloodlust of combat and only seek fame, glory, and the death of their enemies. No other race has such a strong political divide on such a significant issue. Especially considering that even the orcs who follow the path of their ancestors aren't exactly very "live and let live", it's difficult for me to believe that they WOULDN'T kill each other if tension rose enough.

I would argue that if Blizzard never touched upon this divide (which is essentially the basis for Garrosh's entire story arc from wrath to present) would be bad storytelling; it's a core part of their history and culture.

Frankly I don't see the problem.

Curious to find out what kind of deux ex machina they'll pull out of their butts to get the Alliance out of Orgrimmar after this is all over.
I'm not expecting anything good, most of Blizzard's lore has always been so-so or plain out bad with the occasional gem every now and then.

I'm not sure if you know what a deus ex machina is :P

Also again, if you can't say why, I'd rather listen to the peanut.

[Wyrt]

Curious to find out what kind of deux ex machina they'll pull out of their butts to get the Alliance out of Orgrimmar after this is all over.
I'm not expecting anything good, most of Blizzard's lore has always been so-so or plain out bad with the occasional gem every now and then.

Unless the final cutscene involves the new enemies for the next expac I don't see any reason for talks of peace just yet.

It'll just be Varian usurping the other alliance leaders and deciding for all of them that the horde isn't so bad after all. I doubt it'll involve any kind of new enemies showing up.

I suppose you can consider Varian's power to declare peace as an ability he suddenly gained for no reason and with no explanation and would thus be deus ex machina.

[Defengar]

I think maybe Varian realizes that the horde is not entirely evil.

Even if it is poor storytelling it does open up a bath for blizzard to unhinge the races from their prospective faction thus allowing certain races to be a member of whatever faction they choose "should blizz ever decide to do so to squeeze more milk from the cash cow"

But yeah I could easily see blizz resorting to allowing humans/orcs to be a member of either faction in the future (along with several other potential races)

Varian doesn't really have a grudge against the Tauren, blood elves, or trolls. The orcs and forsaken on the other hand are another story.

[Deleted]

Curious to find out what kind of deux ex machina they'll pull out of their butts to get the Alliance out of Orgrimmar after this is all over.
I'm not expecting anything good, most of Blizzard's lore has always been so-so or plain out bad with the occasional gem every now and then.

Unless the final cutscene involves the new enemies for the next expac I don't see any reason for talks of peace just yet.

To understand that you'll have to read Death from Above short story and/or listen to Tong's audio.

In the end it all comes down the what quest giver says in Black Morass dungeron: "Without the Horde, alliance would never be formed. Eventually civil wars would begin and when the Burning Legion would come, nobody would be able to stop it."

Not to mention that Wrathion himself says, when he's blowing off steam like any 2 year old would, "oh sure, it would take months and a few thousand more death on alliance side before they reach Thunder Bluff".

The Burning Legion is comming and he decided to cause even more death to unite the world, which would in the end fail anyway, because the world ruled by Alliance would have no enemy to fight, only weakening them in turn.

[Defengar]

I can see the point of it being rather ridiculous that Varian let's the Horde elect a new Warchief whereas (going from a rather lack of historic knowledge) ancient kingdoms would've probably taken over, razed(?) their crops, pillaged the villages and taken over the enemy territory for their own.
But this is an MMO, and if the Horde suddenly became under Alliance control, well, ... I don't think I need to say any more.

This is the third time the Orcs and humans have warred.
When the Romans fought the Carthaginians for the third time they decided to not show them any more mercy. They razed Carthage to the ground and put the entire populace to the sword or slavery and then sowed salt into the ground so plants wouldn't grow on the land for a hundred years and they also seized all Carthaginian territory.

Carthage as a nation ceased to exist overnight.

Considering what the Orcs have done to humanity in the past 30 years, I think its time for the Alliance to go Scipio on their asses and put them into the fossil record. Or at least exile them back to Outlands.

Sometimes you have an enemy that won't stay down unless you put them in the ground.

[Deleted]

It's been said already, but Garrosh and his loyalists are a small faction within the Horde now. It's like Gadaffi and his loyalists. Or any dictator and the remnants of his forces, once the people and the army have turned against him.

Orgrimmar isn't being taken - a common enemy which happens to reside in Orgrimmar must be dealt with for both sides, and they are willing to cooperate while they do it for the good of Azeroth.

Besides, how much do you want to bet we're going to make an 'infernal' discovery in the depths of Orgrimmar? Garrosh is without a doubt a plot by the legion to divide and conquer Azeroth. Just as we think the world if safe and are about to begin negotiating the terms of peace, we will be forced into another alliance once again. The Burning Legion will besiege all of Azeroth in the pre-expansion 5 world event.

Then Turalyon and Alleria will return, and the resistance will begin. We'll kick the Legion out, and we'll go to Argus and defeat their 'local' stronghold, thus preventing them from invading Azeroth again for a while. That leaves time to deal with Azshara and the other side of Azeroth in the years to come.

Wow. That escalated quickly.

[Musta Kyy]

Garrosh only has korkron, even if those would be half of all orcs it would still be really small part of the horde, it certainly would not be easy for varian to even conquer orgrimmar, there probably will be a good reason after siege why alliance and horde should not fight, but focus against legion instead.

[Asmekiel]

Am I the only one who finds it ridiculous that the entire lore of 5.4 is summed up with "Varian practically conquers the Horde (a faction has been murdering his people and invading his lands for MANY YEARS) by killing and dethroning their Warchief with the help of some rebels

Garrosh wasn't warchief of the horde for a long time, he was warchief of a small separate faction that the rest of the horde wanted to get rid of.

[TheDangerZone]

Yeah, of course, because seizing the Horde capital would in no way make all the remaining horde factions completely hostile. I mean, it's not like both forsaken and Blood elves have WMD's ready to be deployed the minute shit hits the fan, or that trolls and taurens would go completely berserk at this dishonor.

Sarcasm aside, the alliance just doesn't have the man power to seize Orgrimmar. And such act of hostility would cause an all out war with casualties on the millions for both sides. I mean, come on people, Varian would have to be the same idiot he was when he returned to make such a hasty and stupid decision.

Truth is, it's impossible for the faction war to end, and that's not because of game balance. The logistics necessary to completely annihilate the other side are impossible. The toll would be too great, and so much more on a setting where there are powers that can actually rip the world apart.

[Verdugo]

WoW lore has been pretty much dogshit since Cata so.

Warcraft lore has been pretty much dogshit since first warcraft. I dare you, play warcraft 3 again now, you will facepalm that you ever considered it good story.