[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Endule]

Buy t16 and trinkets(Amplify haste and cd reducing)
Reforge all to haste and put some haste gems(spi/haste)
Put Sealfless Healer talent
Get a Haste Buff

Now just test the Rotation

And see how fast u became to heal and generate HoPo...Its Amazing

to add a few more points...
watch your mana bar go down faster
watch you have to waste more gems in spirit instead of througput stats
watch you overheal more in HC raiding
watch your IH and premtive IH shielding be much worse

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with the 2.5 sec spells being moderate filler for hp.

Well haste allows you to generate HP faster by making your 'filler' spells faster. And it reduces all the global cooldowns you mentioned.

but it also makes those hp spells weaker by lowering the absorb they do. even LoD in this tiers h tf gear is going to on average raw heal for 250k + your mastery %.
what you said is also basically no different then what haste does now. its why i an others keep saying that haste in 5.4 is hardly any different then wanting to do it in 5.0-5.3.

to go even further, the lower HS cd doesn't matter anyway. due to other spells also being faster it'll still be hs hr hr lod (or a judge/cs instead of a hr) just like it is with 2k haste on live (and more so forced if hs crits). and you'll often want to LoD at 3hp when the dmg matters. you could also do hs hr hr hs lod but you can do that with 2k haste live too. not to mention that might just end up in a rotation with hs as 2nd or 3rd spell so doesn't matter.
it all just leads to the conclusion that haste wont effect things in 5.4 any more than it does now in throne of thunder. i understand that some people don't like 45%+ of our healing being IH on fights but feel like jumping to conclusions way to fast about haste over a minor hs change that really doesn't alter much of anything.

[Absintheminded]

to add a few more points...
watch your mana bar go down faster
watch you have to waste more gems in spirit instead of througput stats
watch you overheal more in HC raiding
watch your IH and premtive IH shielding be much worse

-------------


but it also makes those hp spells weaker by lowering the absorb they do. even LoD in this tiers h tf gear is going to on average raw heal for 250k + your mastery %.
what you said is also basically no different then what haste does now. its why i an others keep saying that haste in 5.4 is hardly any different then wanting to do it in 5.0-5.3.

to go even further, the lower HS cd doesn't matter anyway. due to other spells also being faster it'll still be hs hr hr lod (or a judge/cs instead of a hr) just like it is with 2k haste on live (and more so forced if hs crits or you cs). and you'll often want to LoD at 3hp when the dmg matters. but you could also do hs hr hr hs lod but you can do that with 2k haste live too. not to mention that might just end up in a rotation with hs as 2nd or 3rd spell so doesn't matter.
it all just leads to the conclusion that haste wont effect things in 5.4 any more than it does now in throne of thunder. i understand that some people don't like 45%+ of our healing being IH on fights but feel like jumping to conclusions way to fast about haste over a minor hs change that really doesn't alter much of anything.

This is just intentional exaggeration, you aren't forced to prove your opinion. Just share it, and step aside and let others discuss theirs. You're wrong about HS cooldown not being a big thing, however. Don't BS anybody here by saying 'oh, who cares? not a big deal.' when your HS CD will inherently go down a second just from the haste that comes on gear. I get a feeling that some people are just afraid of not using mastery. Paladin mastery is a crutch, it's not intelligent design, it's not clever, it's not even interesting. Personally I'm interested to see another playstyle that's viable, at least we can mix things up.

[scoona]

with sob reducing cd on holy shock now and judgment giving us holy power with the selfless healer buff and the nerf to illuminated healing are we going to be like ret and stack haste

[Endule]

This is just intentional exaggeration, you aren't forced to prove your opinion. Just share it, and step aside and let others discuss theirs. You're wrong about HS cooldown not being a big thing, however. Don't BS anybody here by saying 'oh, who cares? not a big deal.' when your HS CD will inherently go down a second just from the haste that comes on gear. I get a feeling that some people are just afraid of not using mastery. Paladin mastery is a crutch, it's not intelligent design, it's not clever, it's not even interesting. Personally I'm interested to see another playstyle that's viable, at least we can mix things up.

well we're here for theory crafting so i assumed testing things in depth and making points based off that and hc raid practicality was the goal instead of just opinions/idea's. if you feel different about the rotation then state in detail why but for now heres some of my reason in more detail.

one setup i looked at was 12800 haste in town (yeah no 5% haste buff oh well) was a 1.05s hs/lod gcd, 1.75s hr cast
1.05 hs + (1.75 hr *2) = 4.55
4.55 + 1.05 sec LoD = 5.60 second rotation with a 4.62s hs cd. so you'd still be casting hs every 5.6s and thats why i'm arguing hs cd benefit being not as much as it sounds especially since you also have to add a few ms to the rotation for latency and/or user delay.
even when i tried that on live servers with 12800 haste i could accomplish that rotation with hardly any downtime waiting on the HS cd after lod. additionally on the ptr with 12800 haste if i tried doing hs on cd i would start 'hs hr hr hs lod' but then would often wind up stuck in a 'hr hr hs lod' rotation which still resulted in hs every ~5.6s and the lower cd being mostly wasted during a gcd or mid cast of another spell. both of those rotations i could also do identically with mastery reforged gear but just slower casts with more absorb. thats the big reason why i'm saying "whats the difference" because in that scenario i just don't see the big 'we must gear haste now' idea of the HS cd change especially if 80% or more of its lower cd will be wasted during a lod gcd or come off cd in the middle of an hr cast.
lastly when i consider how largely reliant we are on mastery atm from both preemptive shield stacking and its benefit of reactive heals + absorbs during pulsing aoe, i can't see haste>mast. it reminds me of some good article i read at the start of the xpac about how for the upcoming T14, haste does mathematically look better on paper than mastery (regardless of ef or lod) but once you factor in overhealing, how mop raid mechanics work, other healers in raid, and shield stacking/benefit, then mastery ends up working much better despite what the calculator says.

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post #1405 on this thread also made my night

[Ceresc]

2nd Boss - Thok PTR
38.6% haste
42k SP
39% mastery
9k spirit

didnt even go below %60 mana, did 135k HPS approx and we killed the boss.

I'm not saying these stats will be best for 5.4 but worked pretty well so far. Mastery build would do as much as this one

p:s I forgot to use crit/haste and mastery % trinket

Which talent were you using?

[bouchbagfett]

I logged on the PTR and gave myself: Food Buff, Flask (Intellect), Blessing of Might, Mark of the Wild. I then used the tool-tips (did some healing to check for errors, should be correct) to find out what all of the new heals are doing. I then played with a few rotations to make sure they actually would work and put together theses charts. I did one set forged Mastery and one Haste. My item level is 545 and am 13/13 in 10 mans.

Few Notes: I am assuming no over-heal and 100% mastery shield usage. This is a raw output setup. So for comparison of output from other classes would be a mistake, but within our own rotational comparisons we can assume similar over heal and mastery usage from setup to setup.

For Sacred Shield usage I assumed you would do one SS after every HP finisher. This is about 7 sec so really you would alternate after every other. Could be better to use it on CD and interrupt your rotation but looking at the raw healing down per GCD I am not sure it is worth it to delay the HP finishers. Thus, I counted SS as half in the rotation since you would be doing it half the time in the rotation.

I have my full charts below and the comparison chart above. I was very skeptical about Selfless healer and Haste and now it looks like I need to take it more seriously. We are far from done with 5.4 tweaks but here is some cold hard math on heals and rotations. I will do my best to redo the numbers when we have significant changes. I will also “model” other rotations as people suggest them.

Haste Build:


Mastery Build:


"Blog" post is at: http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpress.com/ if it is easier to read.

[Ceresc]

This is just intentional exaggeration, you aren't forced to prove your opinion. Just share it, and step aside and let others discuss theirs. You're wrong about HS cooldown not being a big thing, however. Don't BS anybody here by saying 'oh, who cares? not a big deal.' when your HS CD will inherently go down a second just from the haste that comes on gear. I get a feeling that some people are just afraid of not using mastery. Paladin mastery is a crutch, it's not intelligent design, it's not clever, it's not even interesting. Personally I'm interested to see another playstyle that's viable, at least we can mix things up.

As opposed to? The HS cd is definitely something that is nice, yes, however, stacking haste with SH is safe to be called suboptimal. Extremely clunky, "rushed" rotation when stacking haste. I was much more comfortable with and felt stronger when I wasn't stacking haste with SH. Especially when you take into acct that to get everything out of the talent, you have to judge every 4 secs. There really isn't a lot of room between HS, Judge and everything else you want to do to actually heal/ HoPo dump. (Which is exactly what your HoPo becomes when you are generating so much of it while stacking haste). I'm assuming that there is going to be a quaint little breakpoint in there between optimal and not worth it. Just waiting on more numbers.

As well, I remember stacking haste like ALWAYS before MoP. It was not fun. It was boring and its just as much a "crutch" to want to stack a single stat regardless if that stat is haste or mastery.

[Absintheminded]

As opposed to? The HS cd is definitely something that is nice, yes, however, stacking haste with SH is safe to be called suboptimal. Extremely clunky, "rushed" rotation when stacking haste. I was much more comfortable with and felt stronger when I wasn't stacking haste with SH. Especially when you take into acct that to get everything out of the talent, you have to judge every 4 secs. There really isn't a lot of room between HS, Judge and everything else you want to do to actually heal/ HoPo dump. (Which is exactly what your HoPo becomes when you are generating so much of it while stacking haste). I'm assuming that there is going to be a quaint little breakpoint in there between optimal and not worth it. Just waiting on more numbers.

As well, I remember stacking haste like ALWAYS before MoP. It was not fun. It was boring and its just as much a "crutch" to want to stack a single stat regardless if that stat is haste or mastery.

No, I don't assume you "have" to use Judgment on Cooldown to get the most of it. It's simply replacing CS with reduced mana and with haste allows the cooldown/GCD reduction of abilities get to finishers more often. Because of quicker HP gains, you aren't forced to spam HR, allowing you to accrue stacks of SH. Maybe Haste isn't for you, I won't feel "rushed", I actually feel kind of bored HS/CS/HR on every GCD weaving EF in between. As for calling finishers "dumps," well obviously that's the point, but calling it a "dump" is asinine-sounding, because it's the point to begin with, not something you "have" to do.

As for numbers, I'm not waiting on other people to do their math for me. Honestly, just believing something someone puts down in a forum who may or may not have put the work in and then, better still, may or may not have done the math correctly or played it optimally is worse than checking it out for yourself. Which is what I will do.

Reversing the comment about mastery being a "crutch" leads me to believe than you didn't actually get the point of what I was saying. Mastery is a lazy stat, Ok I'll just sit here and overheal the entire fight, but it's ok because I stacked a shit-ton of SPirit and I'm getting all these absorbs, RIGHT?!

That is a "crutch." Playing reactionary healing would inherently take more planning and skill.

[Lucyrotten]

ALL THE GOOD THINGS

Bouche, if no one has told you yet today... I've missed you. Welcome back.

[Peachpies]

Why are you adding the healing done twice.

[Deleted]

How did you add that much mastery shielding?

[mcbubble]

I tried Selfless Healer today in the PTR, and it just didn't feel right, and it's not because judging is useless.
It just feels that it will only ever be used as a one SH buff ( I don't see it ever being used a 3 SH buff)...I say this because I almost always cast another holy radiance, divine plea, or flash within the ~5-6 seconds of CD between each judge. I tried to do HS and Holy Light...but it just doesn't feel right.

I also tested Sacred Shield. That just feels wierd. It's basically a timer: every 10 seconds, reapply to a new character.
Feels a little like my monk with renewing mists.

I dunno...just feels very un-paly-like.

[dar3652]

also SS does the same healing in both mastery and haste builds. haste build should add a few extra ticks to SS correct?

[bouchbagfett]

How did you add that much mastery shielding?

Because I made a 1.mastery multiplier then added them... Let me fix that... Ratios will be similar.

Ugh. I am fail and tired. Going over it all again.

[Peachpies]

you also have the hot portion of eternal flame adding mastery buff under eternal flame total

[bouchbagfett]

Should be correct now.

Now that my numbers are correct you can see the output penalty you pay for judging. It is nice to get a 20% boost to your next HR but comes at a price.

EF also still looks competitive...

SS issue has to do with weaving into your heals but then again healing rotations are hardly raid simulators. Also you can see SS per cast is even just below an EF for total healing. With a "rotation we are getting out an EF out every 6-7sec. SS is 10sec and heals less. Unless of course you are not using HRx2 after HS.

Also, EF still has more total healing than LoD...

One positive i see is the SH rotation with raid buffs and trinket procs is sustainable forever, but so is holy light spam...

[Deleted]

Also, EF still has more total healing than LoD...

No, it does not. While EF in itself would outheal LoD it only happens during no overheal, EF isn't a smart heal and LoD can be taken with something else.

In a much more realistic situation, LoD>EF head on and LoD can be taken with another talent.

[Floopa]

How were the Paladin changes for the PTR tests? Didn't get a chance to see as I was away.

[Deleted]

How were the Paladin changes for the PTR tests? Didn't get a chance to see as I was away.

Only did Spoils of Pandaria, but didn't really like the Paladin changes. I didn't like the fight either sadly.

1) EF was dead.
2) SS was pretty ok. It felt fine in 10 man where it covers 3/10 people and LoD hitting 6/10 people while healing for nothing also felt more of a bonus spell rather then a finisher.
3) SF (+haste) felt more active but it felt really poor, lets face it Paladins need their mastery.

Overall, its much much worse then live. I don't see us going anywhere @ 25 man hc.There is no reason any guild would use a Holy Paladin there atm unless the encounter needs a BoP or something.
As for 10 man, I don't see why you'd use anything except Disc+Mw.

So all in all, it was a pretty bad day.

[Deleted]

O
3) SF (+haste) felt more active but it felt really poor, lets face it Paladins need their mastery.

What would you think about SF + Mastery? I tried it last night for the first test. My thinking behind not taking Haste and hence go Matery is that you have 2 HP generators (HS+J) and for every J you would boost you next HR/DL and give you 35%? haste anyway which would reduce the value of Haste anyway. Together with the 2P t16 HR or DL really kicks in hard.
The resulting rotation would also be a bit more mana friendly an thus might allow us to go for a bit less spirit (have no numbers on that).
What I did was basically HS/J on CD use HR/DL as fillers and pump out LoD (with DP talent) to Mastery blanket the raid. If you track IH on ppl you can make sure that it doesnt fall off during low/no dmg phases.

I tried SS a bit too (with old Mastery build) but found it going to waste too often on the first test encounter last night.

Also HS and J are getting reduced by haste but it seems its only reduced by your actual Haste rating and buffs like the 10% melee haste doesnt seem to push it (correct me if I am wrong).