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  1. #241
    As i understand it, it does benefit from mastery but in a twice removed kinda way.. the thing that determines the damage of the icicle is FB, FFB, and welly bolts which are affected by mastery. so indirectly it is affected by mastery, just not double dipping in it. I am personally wondering how its going to go with the set bonuses cause I think it will be clunky.. you get multiple FFB prods and have to use them you build up icicles really fast, then with the 2 set you build up IL after using FFB. So either you use the IL and blow your icicle charges which I think we will have to do. My biggest question really is going to be the stat prio. I think it will be still haste>mastery>crit at least until 50% then it would be mastery>Haste>crit I think. with the amp trinket it could really get ugly.. im wondering with that trinket if we should actually use the no glyphed IV.

  2. #242
    This new mastery is not worth what we lost.
    Even just looking at how the icicle dmg is calculated we're getting nerfed, CoE's 5% on a 20k icicle vs 5% on a 200k frostfire bolt slight difference in numbers versus the old mastery i think.
    The individual CD on each icicle is really stupid, especially since we can't track it.
    The animation of the icicle hovering above a gnome is freaking huge, now i can see even less of what's infront of my character.

    And none of this has addressed frost mages capping out on Haste and Crit, and the fact we have to use the Icy Veins Glyph
    Should have just removed deep freeze and fixed what needed fixing

  3. #243
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xomniuri View Post
    This new mastery is not worth what we lost.
    Even just looking at how the icicle dmg is calculated we're getting nerfed, CoE's 5% on a 20k icicle vs 5% on a 200k frostfire bolt slight difference in numbers versus the old mastery i think.
    The individual CD on each icicle is really stupid, especially since we can't track it.
    The animation of the icicle hovering above a gnome is freaking huge, now i can see even less of what's infront of my character.

    And none of this has addressed frost mages capping out on Haste and Crit, and the fact we have to use the Icy Veins Glyph
    Should have just removed deep freeze and fixed what needed fixing
    They aren't finished with frost yet..So we still have to see what other changes get made.

  4. #244
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    I don't know if its been mentioned yet but the new mastery actually increases the value of haste. Haste after 15,698 previously only increased the dps of waterbolt and frostbolt when the meta wasn't up. But now because icicles are generated by frostbolt and waterbolt they benefit from mastery past 15,698 haste as well.
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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I don't know if its been mentioned yet but the new mastery actually increases the value of haste. Haste after 15,698 previously only increased the dps of waterbolt and frostbolt when the meta wasn't up. But now because icicles are generated by frostbolt and waterbolt they benefit from mastery past 15,698 haste as well.
    It'll probably be fairly insignificant to continue going for haste past that point. I'd venture guess that just going mastery would be better (especially if they buff it from where it is now)
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-07-20 at 12:44 AM.

  6. #246
    So Frosty Burning Embers?
    Last edited by Volitar; 2013-07-20 at 12:27 AM.
    Hi Sephurik

  7. #247
    Deleted
    Puh okay, with "Spoils of Pandaria", "Thok the Bloodthirsty" and Raid Dummy testing, I spent approx 5 hours with the new Frost Mastery. A quick summary:

    - Frostbolt debuff has to go or otherwise Frost will not be a viable spec in SoO (Multi target boss fights)

    - More spells than Frostbolt, Frostfirebolt and Waterbolt should store Icicles (benefit from mastery). "Spoils of Pandaria" perfectly showed Frost´s weakness. The new ´mastery with a lot of target switching and a lot of multidotting is not working well for Frost (Tries with only 3 - 5% percent Icicles damage). Ice Lance, Blizzard, Frozen Orb, Cone of Cold and the Bombs should benefit from mastery.

    - Frost still scales poorly. On the pull with amplifier Trinket and Wusho 2.0 Fire and Arcane pulled 1 - 1.3 million DPS, frost around 500 - 600k with ilvl 540! As mentioned before, more spells should benefit from our new mastery. Even after a few minutes, the gap was very huge between frost and the other two specs, no matter what kind of fight (Spoils or Thok).

    - Not the oldest icicle , the weakest one should fired automaticly. Icicles should not launched by ice lance, they should launched by a spell that is off the GCD (maybe a reworked deep freeze?)

    - Lost a few icicles during Spoils of Pandaria, because of target switch and adds dying pretty fast, which felt not rewarding. Icicles should refresh.

    - Frostbolt need to be nerfed (if more spells will benefit from mastery) or BF FFB need to be buffed. This is not about numbers, it´s about the feeling. Back in Cataclysm, a "Finger of Frost Brain Freeze Frostfirebolt" hit like a truck . Let me always grin like a Cheshire cat everytime I had it up (and Deep Freeze was the other one )

    - Letting Waterbolt benefit from mastery (storing icicles) would be okay if (as mentioned above) the lowest icicle will be fired automaticly @ 5 stacks.

    - Icy Veins need a rework or the glyph should be baseline and a the old baseline (+20% haste) should be a glyph (switch). We need more room for glyphs (make glyph of water elemental would be another good thing).

    - I don´t like the interaction between Icicles and Alter Time and Icicles and Icy Veins. Firing the weakest Icicle instead of the oldest would allow the frost mage to build up a decent Alter Time.

    I like the idea and the approach, also the frosty topic of the icicles is much appreciated, but a lot of work has to be done!!
    Last edited by mmocc7076034c2; 2013-07-20 at 01:33 AM.

  8. #248
    FINALLY Frost has some other stat to go to. Thank GOD. To me though they just turned Frostbolt debuff into the mastery with more stuff attached bout it. If you ask me.

  9. #249
    I'm a bit drunk and haven't kept up much with findings of the new mastery, I just had one big question to which the answer would determine what I truly think of Icicles. (think of more of a large balance of loves and fears)

    Is each release of Icicles independent, or will a new launch of Icicles replace one that's already going?

  10. #250
    Maybe this is a way to fix the cleave problems?

    Mastery: Icicles

    Mage - Frost Spec

    When you damage enemies with Frostbolt, Frostfire Bolt, and your Water Elemental's Waterbolt, 12% of the damage done is stored as an Icicle with you, for 15 sec.

    Up to 5 Icicles can be stored at once. Casting Ice Lance causes any Icicles to begin launching at the target. When an Icicle hits a target it shatters, hitting up to 3 nearby enemy targets within 10 yards for the stored damage.

  11. #251
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xomniuri View Post
    Even just looking at how the icicle dmg is calculated we're getting nerfed, CoE's 5% on a 20k icicle vs 5% on a 200k frostfire bolt slight difference in numbers versus the old mastery i think.
    Sometimes people tend to look at specific things out of context but this is hilarious. Did you even think about what u said? Try to think in a whole context and give better arguments.
    To explain it: (Numbers are only placeholders)
    Old was: 150k FFB basedmg, +30% mastery, +5% CoE
    150*1,30*1,05 = 204,75K Dmg
    New is: 150k FFB basedmg, +5% Coe, +30% of this dmg (45k) stored as icicle, +5% Coe
    150*1,05 + 45*1,05 = 157,5 + 47,25 = 204,75
    The difference is only that the dmg dont come in one big hit. It comes over time in more smaller hits. I know these numbers don't fit really well because mastery is nerfed in the current PTR but it is about mechanic not numbers.

  12. #252
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    So Frosty Burning Embers?
    I wouldn't be surprised if they added "Requires X Icicles" to some Frost spells for "flavour" in a future patch (e.g. Deep Freeze: Only usable on Frozen targets. Requires 3 Icicles, a steady wind from the North, and reading the volumes of the Schools of Arcane Magic on a Wednesday).

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylphen View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if they added "Requires X Icicles" to some Frost spells for "flavour" in a future patch (e.g. Deep Freeze: Only usable on Frozen targets. Requires 3 Icicles, a steady wind from the North, and reading the volumes of the Schools of Arcane Magic on a Wednesday).
    i kinda like that requirement idea - 1+ point for u
    pun at the end - 1+ point for u

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  14. #254
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylphen View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if they added "Requires X Icicles" to some Frost spells for "flavour" in a future patch (e.g. Deep Freeze: Only usable on Frozen targets. Requires 3 Icicles, a steady wind from the North, and reading the volumes of the Schools of Arcane Magic on a Wednesday).
    It could have been the case if it was a ressource but it wasn't. And that's why it's great.

  15. #255
    So this new mastery looks fun enough to make me want to pick my old mage up again, is this going to make frost competitive at all now in raiding? Like why the change to their mastery, what was wrong with the old one that makes the new one so much better? It looks fun either way, but is this a buff or a nerf?

  16. #256
    personally, i DO NOT WANT. i know blizzard is trying to do something cool with the mastery but i DO NOT WANT added visual effects clogging up my screen. i like things simple and i do not want 5 icicles hovering over my head, obscuring my vision. spell effects are already getting out of control and we don't need more.

  17. #257
    The thing I like about it is that it's slightly more involving than a lot of the other masterys which are just passive dmg increases. I like this because I in some pay can actively impact/activate it. That's far more fun, I just wonder if it'll be clunky.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomy View Post
    FINALLY Frost has some other stat to go to. Thank GOD. To me though they just turned Frostbolt debuff into the mastery with more stuff attached bout it. If you ask me.
    Mastery's value has actually DECREASED from live (not by all that much, but it's definitely lower). Unless they scale it up, you'll want to delay getting Mastery as long as possible.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  19. #259
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    It could have been the case if it was a ressource but it wasn't. And that's why it's great.
    It's not a resource… yet. I wouldn't put it past them to turn it into one at some point (which is why I said "in a future patch", since it would be too big of a change right now). And it would be a shame, really. It's a bland design with little to no connection to old Frost talents or gameplay, unlike Ignite or Mana Adept.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylphen View Post
    It's not a resource… yet. I wouldn't put it past them to turn it into one at some point (which is why I said "in a future patch", since it would be too big of a change right now). And it would be a shame, really. It's a bland design with little to no connection to old Frost talents or gameplay, unlike Ignite or Mana Adept.
    I suspect that with 6.0 they will move mages to a resource system, Blizzard likes that in classes as evidenced by how slowly but surely they have been moving classes to that design.

    ****************

    As to new frost mastery...

    - they need to scale it better, currently it is less damage than live mastery
    - they need to help BF FFB damage, it took a huge hit
    - Water elemental icicles need to move to the water elemental or simply have mastery bump water bolt damage
    - a separate spell to fire Icicle and FoF Ice Lances generate Icicles, change Ice Lance scaling as appropriate
    - Alter Time rewind of stack should add to the Icicle stack, as in AT ends and we have a 3 stack, and when we hit Alter Time we had a 5 stack, then we have 8 icicles, with 3 auto fired on AT expiration. Aka we should not lose Icicles generated during AT

    If they did those things, then mastery can compete with haste, we don't have Water Bolt Icicles watering down the Icicle stack, and we have our three main spells contributing to Icicle generation

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