[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Deleted]

Running lfr with what I asume is 7 decent healers does not prove anything at all. For a proper test the bosses need to do more damage or you need to use way less healers.

mcbubble asked for logs, I provided logs.

But you're right, of course.^^

I'm really looking forward to the 25man tests to see where we're standing right now.

[Scorpiox69]

mcbubble asked for logs, I provided logs.

But you're right, of course.^^

I'm really looking forward to the 25man tests to see where we're standing right now.

What were the setups of the healers (mast/haste stacking) and what lvl 45 talent?

[mcbubble]

Hey, I see holy palys on top of logs. Proof, Palys are OP.
haha, I kid...I kid

[Tiberria]

Running lfr with what I asume is 7 decent healers does not prove anything at all. For a proper test the bosses need to do more damage or you need to use way less healers.

PTR LFR is pretty heavily overtuned right now, and outside of Immerseus (which is a low HPS fight because of how the positioning impedes AoE healing), the healers were pulling an average of 80-100k HPS on those logs, which is pretty close to what you see on most 25H ToT fights (of course outside of Iron Qon, Ra-Den and Megaera). If anything, running with 6 competent healers is a better indication of where class balance stands than running with 6 random people would be. My experience wth LFR is that a highly competent healer of even a class that should be behind can generally destroy even Disc Priests, etc on LFR on live.

Also, you have to remember that the 496 ilvl makes a big difference. Some specs scale a lot better with gear than others. For example, Disc Priests probably scale better with gear than any other spec.

[xiloclipse]

I love when I read blue posts or GC tweets that say things like "hpallies are in a good spot without EF, they are still the 2nd most popular raid class, people are still bringing them"... in 5.3!!!!! All one has to do is keep up on what devs are saying and the class changes made in PTR and they will completely lose faith that this class will be HM viable before live. When I first saw the EF nerf, and the disconnect devs had with how badly EF mastery was propping up the class, I was worried, and started gearing my monk in our HM farm. I'm sick of needing BiS backup toons because devs decide to do a half assed rework of a class mid xpac.

[Deleted]

What were the setups of the healers (mast/haste stacking) and what lvl 45 talent?

1 Pally ran with live gear/reforges and T16 4set/trinkets (Had 12k spirit/32% Mastery) and the other rand with 7k spirit 40% mastery. We both had SFH and Prism skilled. (obv at 496)

[Deleted]

What were the setups of the healers (mast/haste stacking) and what lvl 45 talent?

Müffy: gemmed to full mastery, no spirit reforged to haste. In 496 gear I had about 40% mastery and a little more than 7k spirit. Selfless Healer.

Tungsten: gemmed spirit and mastery, also no spirit reforged to haste. In 496 gear 32% mastery and 12k spirit. Selfless Healer.


On Protectors I used a Potion of Focus (that explains the HPS drop in the graph) and was oom in the moment the boss died. Tungsten (with 4k more spirit) didn't use a focus pot and was also oom in the moment the boss died.


I also tested reforging spirit to haste a few days ago, but in 496 gear the benefit was only 0.2 sec CD reduction - not enough to affect the rotation.

EDIT:
damn, Tungzten was faster. ^^

[Bythelights]

Those healers are not competent. That disc is afk attonement healing all day with almost no spirit shell use. LFR logs are retarded. end of story.

[Scorpiox69]

Müffy: gemmed to full mastery, no spirit reforged to haste. In 496 gear I had about 40% mastery and a little more than 7k spirit. Selfless Healer.

Tungsten: gemmed spirit and mastery, also no spirit reforged to haste. In 496 gear 32% mastery and 12k spirit. Selfless Healer.


On Protectors I used a Potion of Focus (that explains the HPS drop in the graph) and was oom in the moment the boss died. Tungsten (with 4k more spirit) didn't use a focus pot and was also oom in the moment the boss died.


I also tested reforging spirit to haste a few days ago, but in 496 gear the benefit was only 0.2 sec CD reduction - not enough to affect the rotation.

EDIT:
damn, Tungzten was faster. ^^

So.. we don't have to switch to haste!? Yeah! what was your rotation with SFH?

[Deleted]

So.. we don't have to switch to haste!? Yeah! what was your rotation is SFH?

Don't forget that the gear is downgraded to 496 in LFR. Maybe this is different with 540+ (haven't tested it so far).
My rotation was J --> HS --> HR --> LoD. I used Divine Purpose procs (--> LoD) as filler spells to sometimes get 2 stacks of SH.

[Scorpiox69]

Don't forget that the gear is downgraded to 496 in LFR. Maybe this is different with 540+ (haven't tested it so far).
My rotation was J --> HS --> HR --> LoD. I used Divine Purpose procs (--> LoD) as filler spells to sometimes get 2 stacks of SH.

So i guess Divine light is out of that rotation eh.

And Tung's?

[Deleted]

Pretty much the same. Had some FPS probs and some UI elements were not working so I missed some J but pretty much J>HS>HR>LoD and so on. If you ask me a pretty boring rotation but nice for movement heavy encounters.

€dit: Obv you can still DL/WoG to Top a low health player.

[Deleted]

Won't happen ever sadly. It's a sad state of affairs but you're right, healing lost a lot of it's skill, so much so that IMO the "toughest" role to play in a raid nowadays is a DPS class.

I disagree it could easily happen if Blizzard would be willing for it to happen. They've done much bigger changes in the past.

The big problem is people are used to and love overpowered aoe heals/hots/absorbs/smart heals a lot more then single target casted spells. This is one of the reasons I'd wish Blizzard would either give up on their stupid idea of "triage" or go all the way through. You're not triaging anything when you're spamming ReM on cd for no mana cost and the spell heals a lot more then a spell that costs 4 times more mana. Or when you're penancing the boss.

[Pasture]

Pretty much the same. Had some FPS probs and some UI elements were not working so I missed some J but pretty much J>HS>HR>LoD and so on. If you ask me a pretty boring rotation but nice for movement heavy encounters.

€dit: Obv you can still DL/WoG to Top a low health player.

It's no less boring than HR > HR > HS > EF which is what we do now.

[Tiberria]

I disagree it could easily happen if Blizzard would be willing for it to happen. They've done much bigger changes in the past.

The big problem is people are used to and love overpowered aoe heals/hots/absorbs/smart heals a lot more then single target casted spells. This is one of the reasons I'd wish Blizzard would either give up on their stupid idea of "triage" or go all the way through. You're not triaging anything when you're spamming ReM on cd for no mana cost and the spell heals a lot more then a spell that costs 4 times more mana. Or when you're penancing the boss.

The reason why they probably won't do it, as much as it is good for the game, is the massive amount of backlash from casuals they got in T11 when they tried to implement the triage design. That was as much from the tuning of the 5 man heroics as it was from the healing design, but they gradually moved away from the triage system because too many healers whined that "they felt weak and nerfed compared to Wrath". If they tried to nerf the relative power of healers again like that, they would probably get the same reaction, so they are scared to try it.

[Deleted]

True but now I have to decide who gets EF now I just push my LoD button and hope it refreshes the right IH.

[Deleted]

What they should do next expansion is give us a static amount of mana regen just like we had a static amount of mana in mop. They should not give us mana regen trinkets either, they should just stick to trinkets that gives int with int, absorb and heal procs.

Both Cata and mop was amazing whilst in blue gear and it was really easy for a good player to stand out as the bad ones was oom 3mins into any given fight.

[Pasture]

The reason why they probably won't do it, as much as it is good for the game, is the massive amount of backlash from casuals they got in T11 when they tried to implement the triage design. That was as much from the tuning of the 5 man heroics as it was from the healing design, but they gradually moved away from the triage system because too many healers whined that "they felt weak and nerfed compared to Wrath". If they tried to nerf the relative power of healers again like that, they would probably get the same reaction, so they are scared to try it.

MoP was more triaged based early on too. It's just the nature of gear progression. We get more regen, we can use our expensive heals more, the encounters are designed around us using our more expensive heals, we forget about our cheap heals.

Triage only works at the start of the expansion when you have to fall back on cheap heals. Certainly we couldn't spam HR for HP in the first tier of raiding.

[Deleted]

I definitely like the DP change though

[nightfalls]

Atonement is the biggest culprit that everyone refers to. It pretty much killed the real need for spot healing.

I think the biggest problem is when they put DA on Atonement, prior to that Discs were just spamming POH, but at least that required them to gear spirit or use mana CD's in their raid to maintain.