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  1. #101
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    A Demon Hunter without demonic abilities is basically a rogue with some hunter mixed in. Heh, they wouldn't even get +damage versus demons because such things just causes issues in raids.

    Pssht.
    Demon Hunter as a class has been a popular speculation forever. For a Sargeras-themed expansion, yeah that's the only miniscule chance there is. But since they lack a niche, and pretty much all their iconic spells are used by other classes, it's very unlikely to happen.

    "But Death Knights took Death Coil back from Warlocks!"
    Ugh
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-07-25 at 07:43 AM.
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  2. #102
    Demon Hunter seems too specialized to be made a class on it's own. I think Death Knight got away with what it did because it was just individual enough to make it it's own class. I think the next class should maybe be some kind of caster since there hasn't been a new caster in a long time (since vanilla I believe)

  3. #103
    The problem with demon hunters isn't the armor they wear, and Meta form is one of many spells Demon Hunters would need to have. Anything they give them will boil down to being too similar to Rogues (Being melee), or too similar to Locks (Being demon-based spells). To be a melee-based spell class, they would have to have instant casts. Which in many cases, boil down to either DoTs (Corruption, Agony, Doom) or Melee strikes (All Rogue abilities).

    The core of the Demon Hunter class exists in the shape of Demonology Warlocks, both mechanic and lore wise. There is ONE DIFFERENCE between the two: Demon Hunters are a melee class, while all warlocks are spellcasters. If Demon Hunter ever exists, I cannot see it as anything other than a melee warlock spec.
    There is a hugh difference between warlock and Demon hunter.
    In one thing you are right, demons hunters and warlocks use the same type of "energy". Like warriors and rogues and hunters, they use all of them physical power. They smash things with their weapons (from behind, ranged or simple charging them); But all of them are really different. We can see that in Paladins and Priest (ignoring shadow priests) too, they use the same power too but their gameplay is really diferent.
    The only thing that should be changed (because the other 3 skills of a demon hunter are really boring and wasn't their signature spells...good ol'items from goblins in wc3!!!), is the skill Metamorfosis. And like I said, they changed the signature spell of DKs for another one that had the same style but different gameplay. They can do the same with Demon Hunters.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    You don't even serve a purpose for these forums. Go away. I'm beyond tired of you ruining others peoples hopes and forcing yours on them.
    Speak for yourself, it was Teriz's considered arguments that not only changed my mind on a few things, but held my attention and kept me posting here.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Which is why you'll never see them implemented as a class. There is little room to expand their concept without completely negating their identity. Heck, you can't even change their name. The archetype is far too narrow.
    Which, quite frankly, is nonsense. It would be simple to add different styles of Demon Hunter, or add a parent class and pair DHs with a couple of others (e.g Warden and Ranger) just as was done with Brewmasters and Monks.

    The big issues with DHs?

    The name - Blizzard has expressed a dislike for classes sharing names.
    BIG - the overlap with Warlocks. This means you either redesign a DH so it bears little resemblence to the WoW DH or accept a very large degree of overlap with Warlocks and the resulting dilution of both classes.

    The Archetype itself isn't narrow. The Hunter archetype is narrow - the mandatory pet limits the archetypes that fit - but the DH one is not.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-07-25 at 10:51 AM.

  6. #106
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which, quite frankly, is nonsense. It would be simple to add different styles of Demon Hunter, or add a parent class and pair DHs with a couple of others (e.g Warden and Ranger) just as was done with Brewmasters and Monks.
    The difference is that Brewmasters were based on Asian martial arts from the get-go, so expanding it into the larger Monk archetype wasn't a problem, it made sense in both a lore sense, and a gameplay sense. It makes sense that on Pandaria (and the Wandering Isle) there are numerous styles of Pandaren martial arts being practiced, and we were just exposed to one type of them via Chen Stormstout. When we met more Pandaren, we were exposed to more types of Pandaren arts, and thus we have three Monk specs. Blizzard even pushed that further by showing that there is a fourth Pandaren martial art style that we can't learn because its Monks are more inclusive and protective. Again, it just makes sense.

    What you're talking about is mish-mashing three different things because the core concept is too narrow to flesh out on its own. Wardens and Demon Hunters aren't the same, and in lore outright oppose each other. Why would Wardens and Demon Hunters share knowledge with each other? It just doesn't make sense. Further, both of those concepts are different than Rangers, which has little in common with both, and is already heavily covered by Hunters.

    The big issues with DHs?

    The name - Blizzard has expressed a dislike for classes sharing names.
    BIG - the overlap with Warlocks. This means you either redesign a DH so it bears little resemblence to the WoW DH or accept a very large degree of overlap with Warlocks and the resulting dilution of both classes.

    The Archetype itself isn't narrow. The Hunter archetype is narrow - the mandatory pet limits the archetypes that fit - but the DH one is not.

    EJL
    I agree. And that's why I don't see it becoming a class. It simply carries too much baggage, and causes too many problems. Blizzard would have to both gut the Warlock class, limit the Rogue class, and possibly change the Hunter class name to push this class into the game. We are then left with what is essentially a Rogue using Demonic magic. I don't see them doing that. No matter how popular they supposedly are.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrael the Impatient View Post
    Let's start with one very popular.
    Demon Hunter and Warlock can't coexist because Warlock already have Metamorphosis.
    Warlocks and Death Knights also both had Death Coil. They simply renamed it Mortal Coil for Warlocks in Cataclysm. Problem solved.

    Regarding Demon Hunters, the only thing people should know is that if Blizzard wants to implement them they will find a way to make it work. It's really as simple as that. Sure there might be a few complications, but they can be overcome if they want to. Your idea of the Demon Hunters actually fighting demons instead of becoming one is one solution, but there are more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I agree. And that's why I don't see it becoming a class. It simply carries too much baggage, and causes too many problems. Blizzard would have to both gut the Warlock class, limit the Rogue class, and possibly change the Hunter class name to push this class into the game. We are then left with what is essentially a Rogue using Demonic magic. I don't see them doing that. No matter how popular they supposedly are.
    Well, Death Knights and Monks don't exactly play uniquely either. Death Knight feels like a Warrior and Warlock combined esthetically, but the runes remind the class a little bit of Rogues' combopoints. Meanwhile a Monk's Ki also reminds of the Rogue class, but esthetically it feels more like a Shaman.

    If Death Knight and Monk aren't very unique, why should a Demon Hunter be unique? A Rogue using demonic magic fits right in with the other two added classes.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Evasion and Mana burn too. That's all of their iconic abilities. From a gameplay perspective, I'm just not seeing the difference between a Rogue swinging around two swords with Crimson Tempest around them, and a Demon Hunter swinging two swords with Immolation around them. Sure, its different types of magic, but its doing the exact same thing.
    There is a huge difference in the lore. Which is also why it won't be a Warlock spec.

    Mana Burn was removed already, and Blizz likely wouldn't give it to the DH anyway because they dislike burn mechanics.

    Evasion is not a "one class only" ability. Maybe DH can have a passive version for their tank spec?

    Immolation aura is a stronger case, but again is not class-killing. It'd be an AoE mechanic, and may not make it live at first. Monk had to wait 2 patches to finally get Storm, earth, and fire added in.

    Metamorphosis is the only ability that could be class-killing, and its an easy fix. Rename one of the abilities, perhaps call the warlock one Demonic Vestige. And give the Demon Hunter an actually demonic appearance, rather than looking like a large amalgamation of shadows.
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  9. #109
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Well, Death Knights and Monks don't exactly play uniquely either. Death Knight feels like a Warrior and Warlock combined esthetically, but the runes remind the class a little bit of Rogues' combopoints. Meanwhile a Monk's Ki also reminds of the Rogue class, but esthetically it feels more like a Shaman.

    If Death Knight and Monk aren't very unique, why should a Demon Hunter be unique? A Rogue using demonic magic fits right in with the other two added classes.
    That's quite an oversimplification. Death Knights combining the plate armor and weaponry of a warrior, and the dark magic from the scourge makes them very different than every class in the game. Again, we're comparing two different situations here. On one hand you have a class that is clearly combining two existing things (Warriors and Shadow magic), but in that case, nothing else is like that in the game so its not a big problem. With Demon Hunters we're combining two things (DWing melee and damaging ranged magic) that already exists in the game to a moderate/high degree.

    Which is why I believe a technology class based on the Tinker WC3 hero is the next class. It is thematically different than anything else class wise, and there's loads of technology NPCs popping up in the game for some reason. Sky Golem, Siegemaster Blackfuse, and Iron Juggarnaut are the latest examples of what I'm seeing as a very interesting trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    There is a hugh difference between warlock and Demon hunter.
    I often hear this, but then I realize that Illidan, the main focal point of Demon Hunters, transformed himself into a demon and used demonic abilities. Warlocks transform themselves into demons and use demonic abilities. Which is clearly why Blizzard decided to just funnel Demon Hunter attributes into the Warlock class after TBC. Now do Warlocks wield two wargliaves and spin around with their shirts off? No. However, that's not enough to base an entire class on.

    In one thing you are right, demons hunters and warlocks use the same type of "energy". Like warriors and rogues and hunters, they use all of them physical power. They smash things with their weapons (from behind, ranged or simple charging them); But all of them are really different. We can see that in Paladins and Priest (ignoring shadow priests) too, they use the same power too but their gameplay is really diferent.
    The only thing that should be changed (because the other 3 skills of a demon hunter are really boring and wasn't their signature spells...good ol'items from goblins in wc3!!!), is the skill Metamorfosis. And like I said, they changed the signature spell of DKs for another one that had the same style but different gameplay. They can do the same with Demon Hunters.
    The Paladin/Priest comparison is a good one. However its also flawed because Priest holy magic is predominantly used for ranged healing while Paladin holy magic is predominantly used for melee combat. Fel magic is almost entirely used for offensive purposes, and Warlocks cover every aspect of it. There's certainly some overlap with Holy Paladins and Holy Priests, but that's just one spec. With Demon Hunters and Warlocks, every spec would potentially be an overlap, especially with Demonology and Destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Yeah sure, only this isn't the Demon Hunter from Warcraft III, which is what people want to play. This is a completely different class with the name Demon Hunter.

    And D3's Demon Hunters are nothing remotely like the WC3 ones either.
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    A Demon Hunter without demonic abilities is basically a rogue with some hunter mixed in. Heh, they wouldn't even get +damage versus demons because such things just causes issues in raids.

    Pssht.
    Demon Hunter as a class has been a popular speculation forever. For a Sargeras-themed expansion, yeah that's the only miniscule chance there is. But since they lack a niche, and pretty much all their iconic spells are used by other classes, it's very unlikely to happen.

    "But Death Knights took Death Coil back from Warlocks!"
    Ugh
    Thank you. The fact that more people don't get this blows my mind.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-07-25 at 03:19 PM.

  10. #110
    Demon Hunters can have metamorphasis too, but unlike warlocks who use it to deal enhanced ranged damage the Demon Hunter uses it solely to do melee damage, maybe even tank demon hunters could use it as a damage mitigation cool down.

  11. #111
    Evason: This was just a static chance to dodge. That thing that all classes have. Rogues have the name and an active/more interesting version than it.

    Immolation: Warlocks have this, and they have Immolation Aura that allows them, in demon form, to have hellfire going without actually channeling it or hurting themselves. Sounds a lot like the DK immolation.

    Metamorphasis is already given to warlocks in a much more interesting way than wc 3 demon hunters had it.

    Mana burn was given to priests and then mana attacking abilities stripped from the game, unlikely they'll bring it back.

    On top of that, we already have enough 'dark' and 'shady' classes with the Warlock, Death Knight, Rogue and Shadow Priest imo, and one of them already heavily involved in demon lore. There are other things I'd rather see than demon hunter.

    I just don't see another demon centered class, even if it's about killing and not using them, being a good idea for variety.

    "But Florena, we have paladins and priests!" Yes, but priests are a very vague class. They encompass Elune, the Light, Troll voodoo or loa or whatever their lore is, the forgotten shadow, etc, which is why I think they're the class that has 'heal' in most of their healing spells instead of a theme like Light, mists, water or nature.

    Now, COULD blizzard make a demon hunter class? Yes, they could make up new abilities, or implement their core abilities in ways that differentiate them from the versions given to other classes. But between that and us already having one morally gray demon based class, no thanks. If WoW gets another class, I'd rather see something more diverse.



    And here's the difference between the death coil issue and the demon hunter issue:

    Death coil was just ONE of the death knight spells, and the warlock version functioned COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY than the death knight one. Evasion is just a chance to dodge that all classes have, and an active version given to rogues. Mana burn functions the same, attacking the enemy's mana pool, and was removed from game not likely to be given back for a new class. Metamorphasis buffed the demon hunter's attacks and allowed them to attack from range. For the warlock it buffs and augments their abilities and they already attack from range anyway. Immolation became immolation aura which allows warlocks in demon form to have hellfire going to deal aoe damage around them without channeling it. Sounds like the immolation from wc 3, just limited to demon form.

    This is apples and oranges when you compare the DH abilities given to other classes to the warlock ones. They all serve the same function, while the warlock death coil was in name only.
    Last edited by Florena; 2013-07-25 at 03:43 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Good argument coming up...

    There won't be any demon hunter or any other class, because there are too many already. The game is a clusterfuck. Every new patch they change something and reverse some changes they did the last patch. It's just fucking retarded. I hope they'll overhaul the existing classes, cut the retarded number of spells dramatically, and balance the one that remain once and for all. Meaning at least for an expansion. Reading all day patch changes just to know what the fuck your class of choice does today, INSTEAD OF PLAYING AND ENJOYING THE GAME, is stupid.
    Ehh, that's what balance is. It doesn't start or stop with the addition of new classes. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the moment you stop seeing balance changes is the moment you know WoW is really dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Paladin/Priest comparison is a good one. However its also flawed because Priest holy magic is predominantly used for ranged healing while Paladin holy magic is predominantly used for melee combat. Fel magic is almost entirely used for offensive purposes, and Warlocks cover every aspect of it.
    Still can't believe you're still on about Demon Hunters being too similar to Warlocks yet say Paladins are different from Priests. They're just as much different as they are similar to each other.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-07-25 at 04:22 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Ehh, that's what balance is. It doesn't start or stop with the addition of new classes. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the moment you stop seeing balance changes is the moment you know WoW is really dead.

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    Still can't believe you're still on about Demon Hunters being too similar to Warlocks yet say Paladins are different from Priests. They're just as much different as they are similar to each other.
    Thing about priests though is that they're not just a 'Light based cloth caster class.' They are an overall spiritual class that fits into pretty much every race in the game despite their different cultures and religions. The Light, Elune, Forgotten Shadow, whatever the trolls do, etc. Where as paladins, with the exception of tauren paladins, are all Light focused in one way or another.

  14. #114
    Warchief Shadowspire's Avatar
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    Not sure this has gotten to a point people started mentioning figure heads to lead such a class but I'd like to point put a few note worthy and relatively good demon hunters whom we've worked alongside with.

    First:http://www.wowpedia.org/Loramus_Thalipedes
    Not only does he give a good excuse on illidan revival techniques he also didn't use over the top demonic magic, also his gear looks like its mail so theirs that.

    Second:http://www.wowpedia.org/Altruis_the_Sufferer
    This was the second demon hunter we've seen and for the most part could teach new ones the way illidan was teaching his students...albeit maybe a less chaotic way.

    And finally: http://www.wowpedia.org/Feronas_Sindweller
    This one actually shows demon markings along with being most illidan fans in-game. These three along with this guy http://www.wowpedia.org/Telarius_Voidstrider and of course what he drops [Writings of the Dark Herald].
    Pretty easy to actually make a class around these lovely tidbits.

    Also about te first one. He isn't dead he made us seal him away, the starting quest could just be getting the three and that scroll together to reform the demon hunter order....maybe combine it with the black harvest...

  15. #115
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightguard View Post
    Not sure this has gotten to a point people started mentioning figure heads to lead such a class but I'd like to point put a few note worthy and relatively good demon hunters whom we've worked alongside with.

    First:http://www.wowpedia.org/Loramus_Thalipedes
    Not only does he give a good excuse on illidan revival techniques he also didn't use over the top demonic magic, also his gear looks like its mail so theirs that.

    Second:http://www.wowpedia.org/Altruis_the_Sufferer
    This was the second demon hunter we've seen and for the most part could teach new ones the way illidan was teaching his students...albeit maybe a less chaotic way.

    And finally: http://www.wowpedia.org/Feronas_Sindweller
    This one actually shows demon markings along with being most illidan fans in-game. These three along with this guy http://www.wowpedia.org/Telarius_Voidstrider and of course what he drops [Writings of the Dark Herald].
    Pretty easy to actually make a class around these lovely tidbits.

    Also about te first one. He isn't dead he made us seal him away, the starting quest could just be getting the three and that scroll together to reform the demon hunter order....maybe combine it with the black harvest...
    Telarius also shows another potential look for the DH metamorphosis.


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  16. #116
    Warchief Shadowspire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Telarius also shows another potential look for the DH metamorphosis.


    Oh yeah I didn't even pay attention to that form it dos look diffrent then the warlock one.

  17. #117
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightguard View Post
    Not sure this has gotten to a point people started mentioning figure heads to lead such a class but I'd like to point put a few note worthy and relatively good demon hunters whom we've worked alongside with.

    First:http://www.wowpedia.org/Loramus_Thalipedes
    Not only does he give a good excuse on illidan revival techniques he also didn't use over the top demonic magic, also his gear looks like its mail so theirs that.

    Second:http://www.wowpedia.org/Altruis_the_Sufferer
    This was the second demon hunter we've seen and for the most part could teach new ones the way illidan was teaching his students...albeit maybe a less chaotic way.

    And finally: http://www.wowpedia.org/Feronas_Sindweller
    This one actually shows demon markings along with being most illidan fans in-game. These three along with this guy http://www.wowpedia.org/Telarius_Voidstrider and of course what he drops [Writings of the Dark Herald].
    Pretty easy to actually make a class around these lovely tidbits.

    Also about te first one. He isn't dead he made us seal him away, the starting quest could just be getting the three and that scroll together to reform the demon hunter order....maybe combine it with the black harvest...

    LoL! All Elves, all wearing blindfolds, all carrying warglaives, all shirtless, all wearing kilts.

    People are crazy if they think Blizzard is going to implement a class like that into the game.

    The game needs a mail armored class that can be played by all races, is a full hybrid, and has the option to use physical range.

    The Demon Hunter more than likely wears cloth or leather, is mainly a bunch of elves, would more than likely be DPS only, and can't do physical ranged.

    Brilliant!
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-07-25 at 05:20 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! All Elves, all wearing blindfolds, all carrying warglaives, all shirtless, all wearing kilts.

    People are crazy if they think Blizzard is going to implement a class like that into the game.

    The game needs a mail armored class that can be played by all races, is a full hybrid, and has the option to use physical range.

    The Demon Hunter more than likely wears cloth or leather, is mainly a bunch of elves, would more than likely be DPS only, and can't do physical ranged.

    Brilliant!
    While I don't expect or want to see DH as a class, they COULD make them mail wearers and give them a range dps spec.

  19. #119
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    While I don't expect or want to see DH as a class, they COULD make them mail wearers and give them a range dps spec.
    They could, but they wouldn't because it would cause too much conflict with the existing Hunter class.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They could, but they wouldn't because it would cause too much conflict with the existing Hunter class.
    Not neccisarily. Would depend on how they implemented it, windwalker monks I don't think cause too much conflict with combat rogues despite also being leather agi dps and using the same weapons.

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