Still no Fire Nerfs and Frost Gets a New Mastery. Further updates at p22

[voltaa]

I don't find the moving time a giant dps loss to begin with for JUST me, every class next patch will lose dps by moving. Ice floes just makes it so we lose a little less. even fire loses dps while moving, and fire is still going to get nerfed. There will be some heavy movement, tortos, durumu, lei shen fights next patch yes. But I've seen most of the fights and honestly there are ways to work around the movement. It won't be as bad as everyone is thinking/saying. Arcane will do more damage standing still, and that damage will carry over when moving. Same as now.

Will we actually lose that much less though? or will it be more dps lost overall due to mana loss, right now arcane mages do decent mobile dps (about 80k+) while not using nearly as much mana as no RoP ABs, this will turn a non dps loss into a dps loss

[mrgreenthump]

I haven't played around with Arcane in a raid setting but can't you dump all of your charges, Ice Floes, start moving, AB twice to get 2 charges and then use the third cast on a Rune. If taken is that how it will usually be used?

Well yes, but at that point, I'd say using blazing speed right after launcing Arcane barrage from your rune, sprinting to a new location, (maybe blink) and planting a rune is better.. But this has it's uses like getting a random aoe on you like on Sha of fear or Animus and you just activate the talent, cast a rune to the ground while moving and continue dps as it didn't happen now you need to finish your cast, cast instant, run to new location and plant a rune while standing in the new position.. and that's kinda where the charge system comes to play, as normally those kinda of fights have a lot of "random" abilities that could hit you unless you move 4-6 yards.

[vaccine]

Not to mention the time you're out of your rune your mana regen is hit. I'd rather stay in the rune casting my next rune then blink/blazing speed to it than start moving immediately with Ice Floes and spend time out of it.

[Deleted]

Will we actually lose that much less though? or will it be more dps lost overall due to mana loss, right now arcane mages do decent mobile dps (about 80k+) while not using nearly as much mana as no RoP ABs, this will turn a non dps loss into a dps loss

How do I mobile dps o_O ? Fire blast, AE ?

Sorry am now arcane and can rank but no idea how to mobile dps ^^;

[voltaa]

How do I mobile dps o_O ? Fire blast, AE ?

Sorry am now arcane and can rank but no idea how to mobile dps ^^;

AE and glyph of CoC.

Glyphed CoC hits for 80k+ and AE hits for 50kish critting for over 100k

[Tobedeleted123]

Ice floes change can actually make arcane viable @ SoO. (which again is against blizz policy because once again, we will have a mandatory talent)

[Deleted]

Voltaa,

While I get why you're against using Ice Floes as RoP Arcane, it does still open up opportunities, especially as we can now cast Missiles on the move.
Think Durumu/Durumu HC Maze Phase. You're not casting ABlast, but you are still proccing Missiles from AE spam -> can now actually cast those Missiles on the move at 0 mana loss AND get to 4 stack Barrage faster while moving.
It'll be relatively situational most likely, but it's still better than nothing.

Ice floes change can actually make arcane viable @ SoO. (which again is against blizz policy because once again, we will have a mandatory talent)

It's completely irrelevant until a numbers pass comes through, in all honesty. Don't forget Frost/Fire also can use Ice Floes, too.

[mrgreenthump]

Don't forget Frost/Fire also can use Ice Floes, too.

Ye, but Fireball damage is pretty meaningless anyways, so it won't affect fire dps any more than choosing pom would..

[Solidpat]

So what are the latest news on the Tier 2-pieces and 4-pieces bonuses? Last time around Infernal Blast gave a buff allowing you to crit with pyro's non stop. Is that still working or was it a bug?

[Tobedeleted123]

Voltaa,

While I get why you're against using Ice Floes as RoP Arcane, it does still open up opportunities, especially as we can now cast Missiles on the move.
Think Durumu/Durumu HC Maze Phase. You're not casting ABlast, but you are still proccing Missiles from AE spam -> can now actually cast those Missiles on the move at 0 mana loss AND get to 4 stack Barrage faster while moving.
It'll be relatively situational most likely, but it's still better than nothing.



It's completely irrelevant until a numbers pass comes through, in all honesty. Don't forget Frost/Fire also can use Ice Floes, too.

Yeah but the main problem of arcane in SoO was unability to DPS practically AT ALL on some fights (due to movement even higher than in ToT) as the only spells that are castable while moving is magebomb and abarr and ice floes change may kind of fix that. At least a bit.

[Species]

Would a simple tweak to Rune be enough make Arcane viable. Something like "Upon leaving your Rune of Power you gain the buff Residual Energy, increasing your mana regen by 75%" last 5-10 seconds. This would allow us to move in and out of rune to avoid raid mechanics, while also giving us an incentive to quickly get back on a Rune. Thought?

[Deleted]

The Legendary Cloak Proc seems to be very low.

3% Overall dmg (6 min Boss fight).
And on the PTR the cloak is NOT upgradeable to 608.

[Pyromelter]

Ice floes is actually REALLY good for arcane, and kind of solves the problem for arcane in 5.4 almost. The problem is moving and replacing RoP...With ice floes, even if it's constant movement you can replace RoP while moving, and then stand and cast...I forsee this being VERY beneficial to arcane.

Ice floes will do absolutely nothing as long as arcane is tied to RoP. It would be "really good" if invocation were a viable talent for arcane, which it doesn't seem to be.

I'm quite pleased with the ice floes buff. Been trying to use it a lot, and I was just wishing for the charge system last night on Durumu.

Kuni, would you maybe have 2 frostbolts bound, one for normal standing casting, and then a second macro'ed in with ice floes for casting on the move? I was thinking about putting an ice floes/frostbolt macro with the same keybind that I normally keep my scorch keys.

Meh I mean I stutter step dps. Dps move dps move. Not amazing as arcane because you lack rop buff
But it works. I do that on durumu maze. Fights where I need to move every 20-25 seconds is where ice floes will shine. Hell even on live arcane stand still beats fire ATM in full bis. Once fire gets nerfed even with heavy movement this talent will help arcane enough to atleast beat fire IMO. Depending on the nerfs of course. I'm not worried about arcane being viable or not. It's frost id be worrying about still. Good changes but not enough. Arcane scales consistently fire too well and frost not well enough.

Stutter stepping is the WORST for arcane. You can stutter-step all day long with fire and frost with how many pyroblasts, inferno blasts, instant FFB's and ice lances you cast. And while yes arcane beats fire in stand still, that's like what, one fight in all of ToT? I think you're quite off the mark thinking this one talent will help arcane beat fire on heavy movement. And regarding scaling, the argument could be made arcane scales too well along with fire - the reason it's not complained about though is that the requirements to do max dps are just not possible with the current game design.

Rune of power is incongruent with current game design. As long as any spec is tied to that terrible abomination of a talent, there is just no chance that it will be anything close to viable for progression content, with exceptions of cheese/stack strategies. If anything, frost is the one shaping up to look like it's in really good shape for 5.4, where arcane and fire are TBD.

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Arcane will do more damage standing still, and that damage will carry over when moving. Same as now.

Lack of RoP damage and mana regen while moving means a much bigger loss of dps than most others, I really don't see how this statement can be any kind of true.

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While I get why you're against using Ice Floes as RoP Arcane, it does still open up opportunities, especially as we can now cast Missiles on the move.

This is the one big benefit I see to ice floes for arcane

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Would a simple tweak to Rune be enough make Arcane viable. Something like "Upon leaving your Rune of Power you gain the buff Residual Energy, increasing your mana regen by 75%" last 5-10 seconds. This would allow us to move in and out of rune to avoid raid mechanics, while also giving us an incentive to quickly get back on a Rune. Thought?

Similar to what rift did with their pyro rings. You had a spell that could consume your pyro ring, then it gave you a damage shield, as long as that shield was up you had like 50% of the effect of it, then you could instant cast to plop it down at your feet.

I can't tell you how much I loathed that ring, and I can't tell you how much I loathe everything about rune of power, I'd sooner unsubscribe than be forced to take that abomination of game design into my gameplay.

[Vynestra]

Too much stuff here to quote it all without my post being too big lol

I understand lack of regen/RoP is a clear dps loss, but when in durumu's maze you aren't spamming 4 stack of ab, your spamming arcane barrage, missles, living bomb. Your not really losing a lot of mana so when you come out of the maze your pretty high. Yes our fire mage beats me on durumu every week

But I can beat him or compete on jin'rokh, I usually beat him on h horridon, usually h tortos (they put me on the boss for it however), on h megaera I barely beat him, h ji-kun I am on nests 80% of the fight so...Can't compare but I'd probably beat him because arcane does really well on that fight. And he does have some more gear than me.

I see even with movement fights arcane can compete very well with fire and beat it.



Arcane doesn't scale too well, arcane scales CONSISTENTLY. Fire scales too well at the end tier gear, where as arcane just..consistently scales well. It's not going to get nerfed because heavy movement will bring it's dps down to fire/frost once fire is nerfed. However I do forsee arcane still being very viable. Obviously we need to wait but I'd be willing to bet A LOT on it. Against all of the naysayers I do believe arcane will come out very competitive with fire. I'm sure you can come up with every counter arguement to anything I say but at the end of the day, fire hasn't been nerfed yet, mage changes aren't 100% done. Damage pass hasn't happened. We need to wait, we can predict, we can argue but we do really need to wait....And see arcane be viable :3.

The Legendary Cloak Proc seems to be very low.

3% Overall dmg (6 min Boss fight).
And on the PTR the cloak is NOT upgradeable to 608.

Yeah I am worried that the stat loss may be an issue. Also were you fire frost or arcane? Because arcane gets more out of it than fire or frost.



Edit: I just wish the devs would do something about arcanes movement, rather than ignore it. It's annoying to see fire and frost getting a spotlight and arcane literally just completely ignored at this point, still. I'm hoping there are other changes to help with movement. I still think even if we don't get them we can still be viable it'd just be more difficult, and you'll need to play very strategically with ice floes and RoP.

[Deleted]

As arcane it just procs less often than fire.
For arcane its also 2,6-3% of the Overall Damage.

[voltaa]

Yeah but the main problem of arcane in SoO was unability to DPS practically AT ALL on some fights (due to movement even higher than in ToT) as the only spells that are castable while moving is magebomb and abarr and ice floes change may kind of fix that. At least a bit.

The bolded part is a huge misconception, arcane has PLENTY of instant on the move, low cost ways to dps, while in siege it may be more of a loss than it is now due to even higher movement than this tier (I feel that until we learn the fights more fully we will all feel this) people were saying the same about ToT when it first came out, and as we have seen, the "high movement fights" haven't hindered the performance of arcane at all. If you have glyphed CoC and Arc explosion, you can pull decent dps while constantly moving (better than boomies and spriests) Keep your bomb up, CoC on CD, arc bar on CD, AE as filler, and if you have even enough time for half a cast, use a missile proc, I have a feeling that those who are saying the fights next tier are next to impossible for arcane due to movement and that we have no mobile dps don't do this.

That being said, with the amount of movement, while arcane will be viable, fire is going to absolutely shine for progress since it is much more forgiving on movement.

[Vynestra]

As arcane it just procs less often than fire.
For arcane its also 2,6-3% of the Overall Damage.

They have the same rppms, I think it just procs less than fire because less dmg/spells. Same with the current trinkets ive noticed. As fire you have way higher wushoolay/cha-ye/BoH up-time because more dmging spells, it ends up to proc more. However the rppms are the same.

[Deleted]

Maybe, over 200 Mio dmg, the dmg of the Proc ist almost the same.

Everytime between 2,6% and 3%.
For Arcane, Frost and Fire.

The proc scale with Arcane mastery, but also with the critchance of fire.

[Vynestra]

Maybe, over 200 Mio dmg, the dmg of the Proc ist almost the same.

Everytime between 2,6% and 3%.
For Arcane, Frost and Fire.

The proc scale with Arcane mastery, but also with the critchance of fire.

I didn't realize the proc could crit. You also don't have three optimal sets of gear for every spec either, unless of course you do but I wouldn't imagine anyone would have that many sets of gear as a mage. haste heavy for frost, crit heavy for fire and mastery heavy for arcane.

You do have to realize however that if they can crit, that even if I have half of the crit fire has, my crits are going to do even way more than fires lol. If it's a 35k over 4 seconds for fire, if it crits its 70k. With arcane my non-crits are literally almost 70k. THEN if it crits... Plus if you have wushoolays or twoshoolays proc'd, or two int procs procc'd...Not only is the dmg going to be like 150k for an arcane mage over 4 seconds, but if it crits as well.

Now the damage over 4 seconds I am not sure if it is 1 tick/second or how it's done. So in reality fire would get 2 tick crits probably to my 1.


If that is the case quick math at 40k sp and 90 mastery (on ptr with raid buffs and the i553 gear lol)

Fire 4 10k ticks, if you have 50% crit fully buffed then your gonna have 60k damage.

Arcane 4 19k ticks, about 25% crit fully buffed it's going to be 95k damage.

Lets say wushoolays and twoshoolays proc and you have about 35k more int so lets say 75k sp. Crit will go up a chunk too, but for the sake of simple napkin math we'll leave it at 50% and 25%.

Fire 4 ticks of 18.75k with 50% crit you'll have 112.5k damage total

Arcane 4 ticks of 35.63k with 25% crit you'll have 178k damage total

I want to say the difference between test 1 and test 2, fire had a 35k difference in test 1, and test 2 a 65.7k difference. So with fire it does scale better, obviously though because that's fire. It scales better, always, even with legendary cloak procs. HOWEVER we'll never get to a point that fire exceeds arcane's cloak damage this tier because we're not going to hit hundreds and thousands of intellect which is what fire would need to pass arcane. Arcane scales consistently, fire exponentially. However the cloak proc is still better on arcane since it just does more damage flat out.

However fire does proc more because of more damage...So I can see where fire catches up.

So it evens out.

[Methusula]

They have the same rppms, I think it just procs less than fire because less dmg/spells. Same with the current trinkets ive noticed. As fire you have way higher wushoolay/cha-ye/BoH up-time because more dmging spells, it ends up to proc more. However the rppms are the same.

This doesn't make sense. RPPM is REAL Procs Per Minute. things like the number of damage events are factored in. A spec with fewer damage events will have higher rates to proc per event to even it out. You're contradicting yourself when you say they have the same RPPM, but one procs more.