[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Enosh]

do you remember how it was Garrosh that caused that and the rest of the horde were shocked by what he did, and now we are killing him and his orcs who caused it.

You talk like you think the horde overall wanted to use the mana bomb on theramore, but it was Garrosh alone.

were trolls and tauren present at the battle?
yes or no?

[Trassk]

were trolls and tauren present at the battle?
yes or no?

Did troll and tauren know about the mana bomb?
Yes or no?

[Talen]

Turnabout is foul play. he was going to push out the Forsaken, the Forsaken refused. Shades of grey.

Grey? The Forsaken planned betrayal from the very start.

This does not mean they should be totally destroyed, as everyone as times of dishonourable conduct.

Given past history? The Alliances goal should be nothing less than total and complete annihilation of the Forsaken.

EJL

[wych]

Nah, your kind of off on that one, most alliance I've read want the latter and do want there absolute victory, and no matter what happens they won't be satisfied with it. I can count on that 100% when mists is over.

As for the plot, seriously, if you can suggest anything better try do. Any suggestions I've seen from alliance ALWAYS comes with there suggesting the subjugation of the horde and humiliation of it. So if you can suggest something that works both ways, be my guest.

Read through the first 20-30 pages of this thread (at least), you'll see you're wrong.

What I would like is for Vol'jinn and Thrall to agree to sign a peace treaty with the alliance at the end of the raid which ends the war and returns the land (in terms of lore, not levelling) Garrosh took during the Cataclysm, mainly Ashenvale.

[Lumineus]

Do you know why Blizzard doesn't write good Alliance Lore? It's because the Alliance vocal majority are whiny brats who only track losses rather than having any pride in their faction or soverignty.

Hard to do when Alliance lost many of the major sources of pride it once had. Alliance wins Alterac Valley? TOO BAD, Horde wins in canon. Southshore -- birthplace of the Ashbringer -- comes out on top in its rivalry with Tarren Mill? NOPE, plagued for a million zillion years, so you can't have it back even if you retake Hillsbrad! Oh, but we have Pala-- SORRY, all notable Paladin NPCs in the game are neutral or Horde *insert obnoxious blue text teasing Turalyon's absence here*. Well, the 7th Legion is pretty bo-- HAHAHAHAHA, massacred by level 15 Forsaken. Well, at least we still have the moral high gr-- OOPS, Sunreaver incident...

Seriously, what does the Alliance have to be prideful about? And why should we even hope for new sources of pride? BEWAAAAAARE OF PRIIIIIIDE SAYETH THE PANDEMPEROR. Even the quest givers are setting us up for a huge let-down.

[Talen]

Meaning you want a complete victory and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less. Yeah, heard it all before.

Meaning that the Alliance get a story and result that treats them and their fans with the same degree of respect that Blizzard shows Horde stories.
Varian walking out of Org with nothing but the knowledge of moral superiority does neither.

I'm reminded of the quote from Night Watch:

The Republic of Treacle Mine Road lacked all the big, important buildings in the city, the ones that traditional rebels were supposed to take. It had no
government offices, no banks and very few temples. It was almost completely bereft of important civic architecture.


All it had was the unimportant stuff. It had the entire slaughterhouse district, and the butter market, and the cheese market. It had the tobacco factors and the candlemakers and most of the fruit and vegetable warehouses and the grain and flour stores. This meant that while the Republicans were being starved of important things like government, banking services and salvation, they were self-sufficient in terms of humdrum, everyday things like food and drink.

What use is a Moral Victory if the Horde wins all the land? What use is leaving the Horde alone if you know you are simply setting them up for the next war?

I don't want the Horde destroyed but giving the Alliance a meaningful victory, a valid result does not require the Horde to be destroyed or humiliated.

EJL

[Enosh]

Seriously. the message in pandaria is a plain and obvious for anyone with the ounce of common sense.

be peaceful and patient!
no wait, now suddenly it is "fight each other to strengthen each other"

There is a reason why garrosh is the enemy now, because be believes only him and his orcs should rule azeroth and all other races should be wiped out.

rest of the horde was quite fine with that as long as it didn't effect them

So, having the alliance claim some bs about the horde should be brought to an end, it makes you no better then Garrosh, and goes against the wisdom the pandaren live by.

just because a fat drunk panda is spouting some bullshit doesn't make him right
the pandas have no idea about the history of the conflict and should just shut the fuck up

Did troll and tauren know about the mana bomb?
Yes or no?

you do realize you are basically arguing "it's okay to murder alliance but only in this way" right?
or is the next question going to be "did they know there is going to be a battle or did they go with the intention of having a picnic?"

fact, trolls and taurens both committed troops on what they knew is going to be an attack on the alliance with the intention of destroying Theramore and every alliance personnel in it
and that's exactly what happened

[Talen]

Talen, all I'm seeing from you is 'the horde should be punished'. Thats all your saying. Despite there own loses, despite many of the horde races killed under Garrosh's own dictatorship, thats not enough for you, its got to be the alliance that gets vengeance from it.

"The Horde should not be rewarded for warmongering" does not equal "The Horde needs to be punished".

And BTW - the lesson of Pandaria is trying to teach is bunkus.

And thats all this is, a poor cry for vengeance. Even against horde members who want to end Garrosh's rule and stop the war too, but.. nah, ignore that fact, you don't care.

Why should the Alliance care about the same people who enabled Garroshes plans? Who carried them out? Who agreed with them?

VJ and his crew rebelled for their own reasons. The Alliance owes them nothing.

EJL

[Trassk]

Hard to do when Alliance lost many of the major sources of pride it once had. Alliance wins Alterac Valley? TOO BAD, Horde wins in canon. Southshore -- birthplace of the Ashbringer -- comes out on top in its rivalry with Tarren Mill? NOPE, plagued for a million zillion years, so you can't have it back even if you retake Hillsbrad! Oh, but we have Pala-- SORRY, all notable Paladin NPCs in the game are neutral or Horde *insert obnoxious blue text teasing Turalyon's absence here*. Well, the 7th Legion is pretty bo-- HAHAHAHAHA, massacred by level 15 Forsaken. Well, at least we still have the moral high gr-- OOPS, Sunreaver incident...

Seriously, what does the Alliance have to be prideful about? And why should we even hope for new sources of pride? BEWAAAAAARE OF PRIIIIIIDE SAYETH THE PANDEMPEROR. Even the quest givers are setting us up for a huge let-down.

remarkable how your talking about alliance pride when the very nature of pride itself BECOMES A BOSS IN SOO. Seriously, what don't you learn from this?

[wych]

remarkable how your talking about alliance pride when the very nature of pride itself BECOMES A BOSS IN SOO. Seriously, what don't you learn from this?

Are you Taran-zhu or something?

You seem to be ignoring every well sourced and explained point and just making generic statements

[TmrAsakura]

everyone here seems like they forgot about the black prince that has had influence the whole expansion. We help the horde regain control because of what the black prince foresaw, a divided azeroth wont be able to stand against the upcoming threat (most likely the return of the burning legion but idk)

[Trassk]

You know what, I'm just going to take all the alliance whining and crying about this debate.. and just enjoy it.

If its impossible to make any of you understand about balance and walking a mile in another persons shoes, and all you whine about is how you want absolute favoritism despite being unwilling to see the issues the other side too faces, or be content with what you actually have and just want more, it really is beyond discussing with you.

Funny how none of the lessons taught in pandaria washes here. Pride, how it makes you think what best, only with the worst of result, and being humble is better. But no, lets ignore such an adult subject as that and throw our toys.

forget it, you people don't ever learn from it.

[Lumineus]

I know all about the Sha in Seige, thanks. All I "learned" from this is that LoreDev don't have any answers when it comes to giving the Alliance back a sense of faction pride, so they're going to try to spin it as a good thing, which in my estimation is a load of crap.

[Ogawdspider]

As it should be.

This.. and always this. Horde FTW.. Losing a Warchief i do believe is a pretty gnarly sacrifice though.

[Gelannerai]

Meh, Thrall being the central lore figure in Cataclysm isn't what made Cataclysm primarily Horde-based. What made Cataclysm a Horde-based expansion was Blizzard taking several promising Alliance story points and scrapping them/splicing them into Horde story points instead.

- It's pretty lame that half of the Worgen intro-story can't be seen by Worgen players.

- It's pretty lame that the Alliance Twilight Highlands intro got mangled into drunkenDwarfplaneride due to "time constraints."

- It's pretty lame that Blizzard didn't even bother to write in dialogue between the Alliance pc and the Red Dragon Flight that made sense, so we instead get the Horde-side "My people still don't trust you" speech even though it makes zero sense for the RDF to be hostile to Alliance players.

- It's pretty lame that Varian's scene with the Alliance traitor was cut and Thrall was forced into the scene instead.

- It's pretty lame that the Alliance loses Andorhal with absolutely no explanation as to why or how.

- It's pretty lame that Blizzard didn't bother to use phasing in the Swamp of Sorrows to show the Alliance victory there.


The main problem with Cataclysm isn't that it's a Horde-based expansion. The problem is that it was a rushed, scattered expansion, and the Horde focus is a symptom of the expansion's problems, not the problem itself. I don't mind at all that Thrall was such an important figure in Cata, but the other issues (like the examples I mentioned) do rub me the wrong way.

With MoP, it seems to me that a big reason that Alliance fans have a chip on their collective shoulders is patch 5.3. It reeks of the same rushed, "after-thought" sort of effort that was prevalent in the Alliance experience during Cataclysm, and Alliance players have every right to be a bit gun-shy. Now, I have faith that the Alliance won't come away from the siege "empty-handed," but we'll just have to see.

[wych]

You know what, I'm just going to take all the alliance whining and crying about this debate.. and just enjoy it.

If its impossible to make any of you understand about balance and walking a mile in another persons shoes, and all you whine about is how you want absolute favoritism despite being unwilling to see the issues the other side too faces, or be content with what you actually have and just want more, it really is beyond discussing with you.

Funny how none of the lessons taught in pandaria washes here. Pride, how it makes you think what best, only with the worst of result, and being humble is better. But no, lets ignore such an adult subject as that and throw our toys.

forget it, you people don't ever learn from it.

Again you're just ignoring every point raised and making sweeping statements and changing people's stance to suit your own opinion.

"walk a mile in another person's shoes".

I have levelled multiple Alliance and Horde characters through 1-60 and I can tell you, one faction has a considerably better walk through

[Goosfraba]

Imagine there is a leader so corrupt that most of the people under their tyranny want them out of power. Now imagine your country rallies with those who want them out, and does what it takes to remove the foul leader and their supporters.

SO, you win that fight. Do you:

A) work with the native people you just fought side-by-side with, who now share a common positive experience that could evolve into peace and friendship, or
B) dump massive resources you may not be able to afford to control your new friends, making new hatreds, and maintaining an occupation in the capital and birthplace of the population of two major races.

I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.

[wych]

Imagine there is a leader so corrupt that most of the people under their tyranny want them out of power. Now imagine your country rallies with those who want them out, and does what it takes to remove the foul leader and their supporters.

SO, you win that fight. Do you:

A) work with the native people you just fought side-by-side with, who now share a common positive experience that could evolve into peace and friendship, or
B) dump massive resources you may not be able to afford to control your new friends, making new hatreds, and maintaining an occupation in the capital and birthplace of the population of two major races.

I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.

The difference is the 2 "countries" are already at war and the war apparently is not ending from the latest dev interviews I read.

Why would the alliance possibly let the horde keep the lands the alliance held until they were slaughtered?

That "peace" makes absolutely no sense for the alliance.

[Gelannerai]

Imagine there is a leader so corrupt that most of the people under their tyranny want them out of power. Now imagine your country rallies with those who want them out, and does what it takes to remove the foul leader and their supporters.

SO, you win that fight. Do you:

A) work with the native people you just fought side-by-side with, who now share a common positive experience that could evolve into peace and friendship, or
B) dump massive resources you may not be able to afford to control your new friends, making new hatreds, and maintaining an occupation in the capital and birthplace of the population of two major races.

I would shake hands with my new friends, help them recover where I'm asked to, and otherwise walk away. God forbid that the result of war ever be peace /sarcasm.

It's not a bad point, but could you imagine the whining that would come with such an outcome? "It's World of WARcraft not PEACEcraft yadayadayada."

[Deleted]

If the Alliance had made demands on the Horde, and gotten some zones back then we would be back to the Alliance favoured world of vanilla WoW. I thought Cataclysm made sure to balance things out for once, but all Alliance players see is Horde gaining stuff over them in Cataclysm so they want it back after their victory. It CANNOT happen, since Cataclysm merely balanced out the amount of zones each side has.

Moral of the story; an expansion where the Alliance supposedly turn the tables on the Horde, results in an unchanged Orgrimmar, and a crater in the place of Theramore.

Isn't that satisfying?

You'll get Dalaran in return for it though. Last I remember in WotLK was Alliance whining that they had to share their city with the Horde. Now Blizzard fixes this and Alliance players still whine. Please realize that the only way Dalaran could go back to the Alliance is if the Horde got something in return or the Alliance lost one of their other cities to balance things out. More and more do I see Alliance whining when they get what they asked for but they can't deal with the game needing a balance between the two factions.