[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[Silver-Fox]

My personal opinion is the Alliance may come out looking stronger after siege without taking advantage of their vulnerability. They may become respected more for their mercy or their mercilessness, an act of kindness that Horde may not soon forget and in time withdraw from Alliance territories out of respect for King Varian.

I think the real reason though is that in Cataclysm we felt the ramifications of updating past content for the sake of lore or faction developments. It is detrimental to the time and resources spent on current and future content. I'd rather just have it stated lore-wise that Alliance are gaining some ground over the horde than see it in game if it means we can get more content quicker and at a higher quality.

(Gameplay needs to take a priority over storytelling in this case.)

[kendro1200]

Culling of Stratholme.

Culling of Stratholme isn't anywhere near the same topic as Theramore. Yes, civillians were killed, but guess what those civilians were infected (most, in the very least) with the undeath plague. Again, I've said it before in this thread. The undeath plague had no cure until TBC. When Arthas culled Stratholme the plague had only recently been recognized as not merely a sickness but a disease magically augmented to quickly turn healthy people into undead. The effects of it had been known for less than a week and it ran its course in a matter of hours. Stratholme was a time bomb ready to go off. When Arthas culled Stratholme he had to literally make the impossible choice of trying to kill people before they became undead, and thus save the lives of soldiers, OR wait until after they turned and let soldiers put their lives at risk fighting undead. In comparison, Theramore was Garrosh running around with a weapon of mass destruction up his sleeve, and his initial attack on Theramore that not only killed members of the Alliance but Horde soldiers as well, POINTLESSLY, that he then used exclusively for the purpose of flaunting, just like the Lava Giants he used on North Watch Hold. Theramore wasn't a time bomb that threatened the Horde with literal extinction, in fact quite the opposite, Theramore had housed the hope that the Alliance and Horde could work together.
So ya, don't EVER compare Theramore to Stratholme, that is literally comparing the Holocaust to Ancient Leper Colonies and calling them equivocal. Both may be bad events, but they happened for entirely different reasons.

[Lumineus]

Culling of Stratholme.

Look, you can't have it both ways. If you want to say Alliance should GTFO Lordaeon because we don't belong there, then you have to own Arthas as the former Forsaken leader, and all of his atrocities with him. If you want Arthas to be Alliance, then you have to accept that the Forsaken are expatriate squatters who installed a shady foreign national in place of their rightful monarchy, have no claim on Capital City or its holdings, and should be put to the sword for their treachery.

[MathAddict]

Look, you can't have it both ways. If you want to say Alliance should GTFO Lordaeon because we don't belong there, then you have to own Arthas as the former Forsaken leader, and all of his atrocities with him. If you want Arthas to be Alliance, then you have to accept that the Forsaken are expatriate squatters who installed a shady foreign national in place of their rightful monarchy, have no claim on Capital City or its holdings, and should be put to the sword for their treachery.

Arthas was never the leader of the forsaken, he was merely carrying out the will of Ner'zul. The forsaken became a separate entity from the scourge before arthas merged with the lich king.

[Aquamonkey]

The Horde is responsible for the Lich King, due to it being originally Ner'Zhul.

The Alliance is responsible for the Lich King and the Orc invasion due to Kil'Jaeden being the same race as Draenei.

[Lumineus]

Before Sylvanas got Val'kyr, every member of the Forsaken was originally a member of the Scourge. Arthas was their leader. He might have been second fiddle to Ner'Zhul, but they were still under his command. And when they were living, breathing, citizens of Lordaeron? He was still their leader. He was always their leader, from the day he was born as crown prince.

[kendro1200]

The Alliance is responsible for the Lich King and the Orc invasion due to Kil'Jaeden being the same race as Draenei.

Seriously don't play that game. Playing that game leads to Tauren and Trolls being responsible for everything because they didn't somehow kill the Titans when they first showed up to Azeroth, and thus preventing Sargeras from falling, along with all general sentient life on Azeroth from existing as we currently know it. It's a bad game, and is full of stupid generalizations.

[Aquamonkey]

Seriously don't play that game. Playing that game leads to Tauren and Trolls being responsible for everything because they didn't somehow kill the Titans when they first showed up to Azeroth, and thus preventing Sargeras from falling, along with all general sentient life on Azeroth from existing as we currently know it. It's a bad game, and is full of stupid generalizations.

Sargeras left the Titans before they came to Azeroth to deal with the Old Gods.

"Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth."

[MathAddict]

Seriously don't play that game. Playing that game leads to Tauren and Trolls being responsible for everything because they didn't somehow kill the Titans when they first showed up to Azeroth, and thus preventing Sargeras from falling, along with all general sentient life on Azeroth from existing as we currently know it. It's a bad game, and is full of stupid generalizations.

Arthas was never king in life. When the people of lordaeron were living, terenas was king and the leader. As far as undeath, you can cut it any way you like. The leader of the scourge before the forsaken splintered off was not arthas, it was ner'zul.

[Lumineus]

We can still blame the Trolls for Deathwing, Dagran Thaurissan, and Fandral Staghelm, and pretty much everything about the Emerald Nightmare really. Obviously they should have done something about N'Zoth, C'Thun, and Ragnaros while they were on top of the food chain instead of leaving us to pick up the pieces millennia later. They have to shoulder the blame for all of the elven idiocy too, much of which falls on the ancestors of the Blood Elves anyway.

[kendro1200]

Sargeras left the Titans before they came to Azeroth to deal with the Old Gods.

Do you have a blue on that? After the Eredar and Sargeras retcon from TBC I thought it was unknown exactly when Sargeras left the Pantheon (Although technically all we had previous to that was the WC3 manual that gave a general history with no dates, nor specifics on when Sargeras left the Pantheon).

[Dreknar20]

So apparently Jaina and Vereesa capturing and killing blood elves and driving any presence of the horde from dalaran isn't 'getting one up' on the horde to you.

to add to that
If the Purge of Dalaran is not a "fist-pump moment" for the Alliance, then the Cataclysm leveling zones are not "fist-pump moments" for the Horde

[Aquamonkey]

We can still blame the Trolls for Deathwing, Dagran Thaurissan, and Fandral Staghelm, and pretty much everything about the Emerald Nightmare really. Obviously they should have done something about N'Zoth, C'Thun, and Ragnaros while they were on top of the food chain instead of leaving us to pick up the pieces millennia later. They have to shoulder the blame for all of the elven idiocy too, much of which falls on the ancestors of the Blood Elves anyway.

They were doing something, they were fighting the Aqir empires... only to be taken down by Night Elves.

[Dreknar20]

I think the real reason though is that in Cataclysm we felt the ramifications of updating past content for the sake of lore or faction developments. It is detrimental to the time and resources spent on current and future content.

those had gameplay reasons too.
Blizz felt it wise to make leveling zones more enganging and better since most of the sub losses are from players who never reach max level

[Aquamonkey]

Do you have a blue on that? After the Eredar and Sargeras retcon from TBC I thought it was unknown exactly when Sargeras left the Pantheon (Although technically all we had previous to that was the WC3 manual that gave a general history with no dates, nor specifics on when Sargeras left the Pantheon).

"Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth."

The only thing retconned about Sargeras was which demon species corrupted him.

[Dreknar20]

Only reason I feel bad for them is because Blizz turned Tyrande into an idiot over the past couple expansions.

how is she an idiot. In Warcraft 3 she was the hot-headed warrior priestess

[kendro1200]

to add to that
If the Purge of Dalaran is not a "fist-pump moment" for the Alliance, then the Cataclysm leveling zones are not "fist-pump moments" for the Horde

Did you play the Purge of Dalaran? It felt more like the Death Knight starting zone with the slaughtering of New Avalon. Vereesa had been waiting for any excuse to throw the Sunreavers out, killing them if able ever since Rhonin was killed. The "Purge of Dalaran" was Jaina telling the player, "I'm going to go imprison the Sunreavers who choose not to leave into the Violet Hold." Vereesa then comes up to you and says, "Jaina totally left me in charge, here's a list of names I want you to kill, and then go to the Sunreaver inn and kill everyone in sight." The Purge of Dalaran was the equivalent to the bombing of Thal'darah Grove. Had the Sunreavers actually been an armed force that was fighting back, rather than running in the streets in fear because their portals had been shut down, the dragonhawks were put down and a pissed off and unreasonable Jaina Proudmoore was walking around the city teleporting people into the Violet Hold on sight, then maybe it would have been a fist-bump moment. Fist-bumps come about from putting in an effort and coming out on top with some goal achieved. The Purge of Dalaran was nothing like that, and if you pay attention was basically a Horde plot device to explain why Lor'themar didn't leave the Horde outright and join the Alliance. It wasn't like Tol'Barad or Icecrown where you'd go around killing the opposite faction and they'd actually put up a fight.

- - - Updated - - -

"Unaware of Sargeras' mission to undo their countless works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering each planet as they saw fit. Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth."

The only thing retconned about Sargeras was which demon species corrupted him.

That's old in-game literature (literally, that's vanilla beta in age) and is out of date. When the Titans encountered the old gods it was their second visit to Azeroth.

[Dreknar20]

It wasn't like Tol'Barad or Icecrown where you'd go around killing the opposite faction and they'd actually put up a fight.

Ai, so it dsnt feel good because of so?
Yet those Cataclysm "Horde fist pump" things were done in the name of the Warchief who is now a villian/raid boss

And plenty of the Sunreavers fought back, as people dont like being imprisoned, and it would have been boring gameplay

[kendro1200]

Ai, so it dsnt feel good because of so?
Yet those Cataclysm "Horde fist pump" things were done in the name of the Warchief who is now a villian/raid boss

And plenty of the Sunreavers fought back, as people dont like being imprisoned, and it would have been boring gameplay

And apart from a handful of occasions, and until Theramore, the Horde was generally proud of what they did in-game. Andorhal? Ashenvale? Azshara?

edit: Yes, they fought back, in the same fashion the peasants in New Avalon did, which literally doesn't translate to much. The named NPCs on Vereesa's hit list fought back more so than the nameless NPCs, but it wasn't any better.

[Aquamonkey]

That's old in-game literature (literally, that's vanilla beta in age) and is out of date. When the Titans encountered the old gods it was their second visit to Azeroth.

So what? No retcons changed Sargeras leaving the Titans before they fought the Old Gods, therefore it still stands. The only thing that changed from what I linked was that being the Titans' second coming to Azeroth.