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  1. #981
    Stood in the Fire Vamandrac's Avatar
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    Blizzard wouldn't know how to write a decent story for the Alliance if it hit them in the face. I've all but given up on a small victory or anything for the Alliance because Blizzard can't be bothered that it might show their precious Horde losing for once.

    Everything I say is absolute. If you disagree, you're a communist.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    So what? No retcons changed Sargeras leaving the Titans before they fought the Old Gods, therefore it still stands. The only thing that changed was that being the Titan's second coming to Azeroth.
    And so it still stands that if we wanted to play the blame game by association the Trolls and Tauren are at the end of the chain, because once again, they could have stopped (again playing this game creates unreasonable expectations of those involved, so even though they reasonably couldn't, the game dictates that since they still exist they should have and since they didn't they are thus responsible) the Titans from everything they did to Azeroth and thus prevent the Alliance or Horde from ever existing (remember the Horde exists because of Knack and time travelling mages creating paradoxes). Like I said, it's a bad and stupid game, don't play it, it ends up tagging all of the responsibility on beings utterly incapable of preventing everything that happened.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  3. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    And so it still stands that if we wanted to play the blame game by association the Trolls and Tauren are at the end of the chain, because once again, they could have stopped (again playing this game creates unreasonable expectations of those involved, so even though they reasonably couldn't, the game dictates that since they still exist they should have and since they didn't they are thus responsible) the Titans from everything they did to Azeroth and thus prevent the Alliance or Horde from ever existing (remember the Horde exists because of Knack and time travelling mages creating paradoxes). Like I said, it's a bad and stupid game, don't play it, it ends up tagging all of the responsibility on beings utterly incapable of preventing everything that happened.
    There's a difference between being ants among gods and being an incompetent prophet/leader who could barely convince a handful of people not to join Sargeras.

    If you take the blame game all the way up, it goes to the Pantheon just letting Sargeras go off on his own.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-26 at 05:09 AM.

  4. #984
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    There's a difference between being ants among gods and being an incompetent prophet/leader who could barely convince a handful of people not to join Sargeras.

    If you take the blame game all the way up, it goes to the Pantheon just letting Sargeras go off on his own.
    Except with the Draenei it was less than a third of the people that went with Velen, over 2/3'rds of the Eredar wanted to join Sargeras. That says something fundamentally about the original Eredar (after the TBC retcon) they were inherently bad, or in the very least a very dark shade of grey to begin with, but didn't have the means of intergalactic conquest. Like some of the Forsaken aren't interested in killing the living, should those Forsaken be held responsible for South Shore? Velen wasn't the sole leader of the Eredar he was one of three prominent Eredar, something akin to leaders. The other two were Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, they were his peers, Velen wasn't their superior, and he was at that point a self-proclaimed prophet, there wasn't any religion centered around him at that point.
    We could hold everything to the Pantheon, if they simply didn't go around "ordering" everything none of this mess would exist. The Old Gods would have either left Azeroth alone or completely destroyed it during their genocidal games of amusement. Sargeras would have never turned. All of the demons would have done what they were doing before they were caught and brought under the Legion, the Eredar would still be its own race, probably going through some sort of societal moral struggles, and the Orcs would have stayed a little shamanistic race. Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes wouldn't exist, nor would any of the dragons.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  5. #985
    Pandaren Monk Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    -snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    -snip-
    Love how I pointed out I was joking and I still get lore thrown at me that I all ready know /sigh. I did learn some world history though . Also to add. Sylvanas is on of my favored Lore characters and I still think she should have died at Icecrown. Rightfully the land belongs to the Argent Crusade. I would love to see Sylvanas and her people find piece and move on. With only the ones that are truly willing to restore nature left (Undead in the Argent Crusade).
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Sundering? Bah, the world had it coming. :P
    We should sunder more worlds. We could call are selves, the Flaming Armada.
    Last edited by Solzan Nemesis; 2013-07-26 at 05:29 AM.

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by Solzan Nemesis View Post
    Love how i pointed out I was joking and I still get lore thrown at me that I all ready know /sigh.
    Sorry didn't catch the /joking or /sarcasm. I simply saw your post with a one liner on the page and was filled with rage, because I hate Stratholme being used as an example of Alliance genocide or acts of atrocity. It was an impossible situation that couldn't be resolved any other way. I think people point to it because they only see it through the WotLK CoT version, which leaves out huge chunks of back story leading up to it. Arthas didn't just see plagued villagers and think, "Well...Light's Vengeance hasn't been bathed in peasant blood today, let's go raze a city!" He had just one or two nights previously attempted to save a village (Hearthglen) that had only been infected that morning and fought day and night waiting for reinforcements as villagers turned around him and his men were killed. After going through that he arrives to another place (Stratholme) and has to choose to go through that again or to try and prevent the people of the city from having to go through the horrible experience of death by the plague. There is literally no other event in Warcraft's history that compares to that.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  7. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solzan Nemesis View Post
    . Rightfully the land belongs to the Argent Crusade.
    Rights are imaginary. They hold as much credibility as Winnie the Pooh.
    Power is everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    I simply saw your post with a one liner on the page and was filled with rage, because I hate Stratholme being used as an example of Alliance genocide or acts of atrocity. It was an impossible situation that couldn't be resolved any other way.
    As I recall Uther saying once "Being king is sometimes about choosing between a wrong choice and a wronger choice" - or somethin like that

    Yet it is supposed to serve as a "AHA" moment. To show that this character is now on a dark path leading up to a villian.
    Its kinda standard for Blizzard
    Other examples are Garrosh - Theramore, Arturus Mengsk - Tarsonis
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #988
    Pandaren Monk Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    -snip-
    Np.
    I remember that mission (survive 10 mins), and I know I would have killed the people too. Undeath is a curse that only the insane or thoughts afraid to die would want. (I should point out that if magic was real I would be the 1st to jump at the chance to learn necromancy.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Rights are imaginary. They hold as much credibility as Winnie the Pooh.
    Power is everything.
    Ever day the Dark Lady becomes darker, soon her goals will clash with the Argent Crusades. I would hate to see her take the same rode as another of my favored lore characters Keal'thas Sunstrider. As for power. belief in your right can become power. If you are strong and willing.
    Last edited by Solzan Nemesis; 2013-07-26 at 05:57 AM.

  9. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    Except with the Draenei it was less than a third of the people that went with Velen, over 2/3'rds of the Eredar wanted to join Sargeras.
    Much less than 1/3 followed Velen. He even laments his impotence as a leader.
    Velen grieved over his impotence. He wanted to save all of his people, as he had sworn to do, but he knew that was impossible. Most would trust in Kil’jaeden and Archimonde, and follow them to their doom. But there were a few who thought as he did, who would forsake everything merely upon his word. They would need to; their home world of Argus would shortly be destroyed, devoured by the madness of the demonic legion. Those who would survive would have to flee.
    ...
    Velen saw that their number was sickeningly small. They numbered only in the hundreds, these who were the only ones Velen truly trusted.

    --Rise of the Horde

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    That says something fundamentally about the original Eredar (after the TBC retcon) they were inherently bad, or in the very least a very dark shade of grey to begin with, but didn't have the means of intergalactic conquest. Like some of the Forsaken aren't interested in killing the living, should those Forsaken be held responsible for South Shore?
    The Eredar were not even close to being bad or a shade of grey. "Worlds for them to conquer, and more importantly, to explore and investigate; for above all, the eredar were curious. For beings so powerful, knowledge was what meat and drink were to lesser beings, and Sargeras offered them a tantalizing glimpse into what could be theirs if they would only . . ." They were more interested in exploration than intergalactic conquest. They were noble and "a strong, passionate, proud people." Sargeras showed them that they would bring the light of civilization to those worlds and they would be adored for it. KJ said "I do not want to give up what I know to be positive and good and true for what I fear might be unpleasant."

    Plus there's the Draenei, who are as the Eredar were originally...

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    Velen wasn't the sole leader of the Eredar he was one of three prominent Eredar, something akin to leaders. The other two were Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, they were his peers, Velen wasn't their superior, and he was at that point a self-proclaimed prophet, there wasn't any religion centered around him at that point.
    "The three of them had always worked well together, their diverse personalities serving to balance one another. The result was harmony and peace for their people. He knew that Kil'jaeden and Archimonde truly wanted what was best not only for themselves, but for those they led."

    KJ was powerful, wise, and decisive.
    Arch was vain and impetuous.
    Velen was cautious and had visions. They completely dismiss Velen's vision as "This is not a glimpse into the future that we can verify. It is only your hunch." "There is no veracity here, only an image in your own mind." "I do not want to give up what I know to be positive and good and true for what I fear might be unpleasant."

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    We could hold everything to the Pantheon, if they simply didn't go around "ordering" everything none of this mess would exist. The Old Gods would have either left Azeroth alone or completely destroyed it during their genocidal games of amusement. Sargeras would have never turned. All of the demons would have done what they were doing before they were caught and brought under the Legion, the Eredar would still be its own race, probably going through some sort of societal moral struggles, and the Orcs would have stayed a little shamanistic race. Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes wouldn't exist, nor would any of the dragons.
    All the Titans had to do was lock Sargeras up or talk some sense into him. When he left, he was still good, he was just depressed. Because they let him wander off on his own, he was later consumed completely by madness.

    So the Titans just letting evil run rampant across the universe would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by kendro1200 View Post
    All of the demons would have done what they were doing before they were caught and brought under the Legion
    Only a tiny fraction of demons are in the Legion. The number of demons in the Twisting Nether is infinite. The Legion only had 1 million demons during WotA (WC3 Manual) and only a few millions during TBC.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-26 at 06:03 AM.

  10. #990
    Deleted
    Maybe the new Warchief will hand over one of the zones? It won't be 5.4 where we'll get a new Warchief, so who knows.

  11. #991
    "ERMERGERD BLIZZARD IS BIAS FOR KEEPING GAME BALANCED"

    Thats what i got from all of this. For the longest time Alliance had a monopoly on lore and more zones, and now its even and you ppl aren't happy. You even get to kill Horde characters next patch and you're not happy.

    How's about the fact that lorewise the Horde is at a disadvantage, or that we lose many of our few characters we have, while the Alliance lose no major characters??

    Seriously people, this isnt Tera, there's 2 factions here and they both deserve the same amount of attention, in game and lorewise.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenamedosentfi View Post
    http://greyshades.files.wordpress.co...erothlarge.jpg

    Also, the speculation that elves came from trolls has never been confirmed.
    At the beginning of the world, now known as Azeroth, the god-like titans created the Well of Eternity, source of all magic on the planet. In time, a tribe of dark trolls came to settle near the translucent waters of the well. These feral, nomadic humanoids built crude homes on the shore of the well, and named themselves Kaldorei, which meant "children of the stars" in their native tongue. The trolls believed that their moon goddess, Elune, slept within the Well’s shimmering depths during the daylight hours. Exposed to the potent power of the well, the trolls began to evolve, eventually becoming the first night elves.[1]

    http://www.wowpedia.org/Night_elves
    http://www.wowpedia.org/World_of_War...lume_2_Issue_1

  13. #993
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So apparently Jaina and Vereesa capturing and killing blood elves and driving any presence of the horde from dalaran isn't 'getting one up' on the horde to you.

    This is why its hard to take some of you alliance fans seriously, you don't acknowledge any wrong doing from your own side, and just look for any scapegoat for it. The horde does some bad shit (which the bombing of theramore is on Garrosh, not the horde itself), and that gets taken into account, but Jaina and Vereesa killing and capturing blood elves? Pff, naaaaah, thats fine, alliance can get away with that.

    The worst culprits in war are those that remain complacent in there actions. If you can blame all the horde for Garrosh's actions against theramore, I can just as easily hold the alliance responsible for Jaina and Vereesa's actions in dalaran. Eye for an eye.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Meaning you want a complete victory and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less. Yeah, heard it all before.
    She did that because the Sunreavers betrayed her and used Dalaran's Neutrality to steal the divine bell. It's NOT because theramore. Get your facts checked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    "ERMERGERD BLIZZARD IS BIAS FOR KEEPING GAME BALANCED"

    Thats what i got from all of this. For the longest time Alliance had a monopoly on lore and more zones, and now its even and you ppl aren't happy. You even get to kill Horde characters next patch and you're not happy.

    How's about the fact that lorewise the Horde is at a disadvantage, or that we lose many of our few characters we have, while the Alliance lose no major characters??

    Seriously people, this isnt Tera, there's 2 factions here and they both deserve the same amount of attention, in game and lorewise.
    Excuse me, monopoly on lore and more zones?
    In Vanilla there was hardly ever a lore development.
    In TBC We were mostly dealing with blood elf lore development ending in the purifiying of the Sunwell
    In Wrath both factions got lore development (if you hordes think you didn't: The rise of garrosh, the creation of the plague, etc etc)
    And since Cata its all Hordey-thrallfest.

  14. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    She did that because the Sunreavers betrayed her and used Dalaran's Neutrality to steal the divine bell. It's NOT because theramore. Get your facts checked.
    Vereesa was directly in charge of the Purge and she did it because of Theramore. She was still whining about it at the Isle of Thunder when Jaina decided to let the Blood Elves walk away.

    Also, Dalaran was far from neutral. They chose to stand against Garrosh.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-26 at 08:03 AM.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    As it should be.
    And people wonder why they lost almost half of their players.

    Aside from the boring gameplay, the ridiculous questing and lore influenced my decision to stop playing wow.

    Its like watching a tv show for years, then stop because it's gotten ten kinds of stupid, then return a few years later to see it still going on and finding how hilariously bad it's gotten since it jumped the shark.

  16. #996
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Obscene View Post
    This is moronic. Garrosh didn't all of this shit alone. He didn't level Southshore or throw innocent farmers into camps. He didn't employ the mana bomb alone and he wasn't always opposed. And don't tell me about the strength of cooperation, logically the Horde should be a broken wreck, its strongest military segment destroyed by a brutal civil war, the Alliance should impose a harsh peace treaty, take back conquered territory, something.

    How hard would it be to phase say...Ashenvale and plant a few more NPCs for those over 90. Just a few sentinels at the Mor'shan Rampart, an Alliance customs officer or whatever.
    Personally For The Horde!

    As to phasing or changing zones to impact some treaty where by Alliance takes back zones A, B, C etc, it won't happen purely because it would mean they'd have to spend more time between xpacks, constantly changing zones from one faction to another as the flow of battle passes over the lands.

    Been playing this game 8yrs now and tbh I'd rather not have to spend as long between expansions as we did in the past. I don't mind 18months to a couple years per xpack but if they had to start messing with zones on a regular basis constantly updating them to reflect the current conflict between factions, then we'd be looking at expansion duration times like we had previously:

    Release Timeline

    1994– – Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
    1995– – Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness
    1996– – Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal
    1997–
    1998–
    1999– – Warcraft II: Battle.net Edition
    2000–
    2001–
    2002– – Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos
    2003– – Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
    2004– – World of Warcraft
    2005–
    2006–
    2007– – World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
    2008– – World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King
    2009–
    2010– – World of Warcraft: Cataclysm
    2011–
    2012– – World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria
    2013– – Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft

    And I'm sure no one wants another fecking Dragon Soul lol...

    Banging away at places in TBC was fun for me, didn't mind the grind through linear experience and gating/attunements but the player base nowadays is impatient. You only need to look at the fact blizzard put LFG, LFR and soon Flexi in the game to see this. Hell they even made it so EVERY player no matter their play time can get a legendary and yet even this is still being bitched about because it requires some effort to farm certain parts but it's nothing like it used to be.

    If they start taking longer between expansions and leaving us to grind away at some crud like Dragon Soul again then it's only gonna hurt the game as a whole rather then actually making any decent kind of impact just so those who want X zone to be returned to Alliance/Horde hands over and over when the developers could be working on not only newer content but also get back to working on Titan and other projects (insert Warcraft movie here finally).

    I love the Warcraft lore, I really do, it was reading the books that actually got me in to playing the online game in the first place, more then if I'd just played Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 would of but to actually have the player base wait long times between expansions and content isn't possible any more.

    The other side of this coin is this:

    If there was to be any kind of lasting peace between the two main factions then pvp wouldn't need to exist any more and I can tell you now, that would cause more of a s*** storm then any nonsense over who controls what zone, so in short these places have to remain as they are so they can be constantly contested for.

  17. #997
    Deleted
    Well ofc, Alliance get screwed agian. i recall Blizzard Said the alliance would get a BIG fist pumping moment, and a epic trial of the high king.
    Where are they? ARE the Trial of the HIGH KING, really just 2 senarios And the fist pumping moment is what? Leaveing ogrimma? How can that be, please tell me i missed something big, and that blizzard did not screw over the alliance or just completly forgetting about them.
    I am actually happy many people are quitting wow, i still enjoy the gameplay, but happy that wow is loosing subscribers When they Not only COMPLETLY screw over one side. But then also even lie about what will they add to make it up

  18. #998
    Bloodsail Admiral Riavan's Avatar
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    We welcome our alliance side kicks.

  19. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Also, Dalaran was far from neutral. They chose to stand against Garrosh.
    Damn straight. Theramore was the logistical keystone into aggressive alliance incursions into the Barrens and Durotar. The day Theramore helped Northwatch invade Durotar was the day it became 'fair game'. Garrosh staged a feint land attack on Theramore, and lo and behold the Kirin Tor comes rushing to it's defence. 'Neutral' my arse! Garrosh's raid on Theramore was a masterstroke- not only did it get the Kirin Tor to show their true colours, but it tricked them into doing so in a trap.

    Theramore was a legitimate aggressive target, bombing it was a defensive manoever, and Rhonin would never have died if he wasn't there illegitimately defending the warmongering Alliance city state.

  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    Damn straight. Theramore was the logistical keystone into aggressive alliance incursions into the Barrens and Durotar. The day Theramore helped Northwatch invade Durotar was the day it became 'fair game'. Garrosh staged a feint land attack on Theramore, and lo and behold the Kirin Tor comes rushing to it's defence. 'Neutral' my arse! Garrosh's raid on Theramore was a masterstroke- not only did it get the Kirin Tor to show their true colours, but it tricked them into doing so in a trap.

    Theramore was a legitimate aggressive target, bombing it was a defensive manoever, and Rhonin would never have died if he wasn't there illegitimately defending the warmongering Alliance city state.
    : /

    The city where Jaina's father died telling his daughter the orcs would become what they had been again, and would destroy the city. You could call Jaina's father racist all you want. But he was 100% correct.

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