The 5.4 Shaman Thread

[Aviators]

Mastery is a pretty decent stat in 10hm, so i donut mind the mastery.

[Tiberria]

Mastery is a pretty decent stat in 10hm, so i donut mind the mastery.

I'm pretty sure it's a terrible stat even in 10 HM unless you are 2 healing without a holy pally or disc priest.

[Deleted]

but I guess HTT breakpoints also become 2.5 times more valuable in 5.4 with the 25 man target cap.

Maybe, but not necessarily. Most of the healing from the buffed raid CDs is actually overhealing. But I would ofc try it out if I could reach it just by reforging and still staying at 17-18k spirit.

I'm also starting to think that AG might be better for quite alot of encounters than Rushing Stream in 25man due to more people in Healing Rain(+scaled). But then again it comes down to the encounter, on Siegecrafter for example you are lucky if you can catch 6ppl in it in 25man I think.

But to sum it up, my opinion right now is that it's only worth to go for higher haste caps if you don't sacrifice Intellect/Spirit for it.

Also remember, the more haste the more spirit you will need.

[Protoman]

Kinda agree, imo they should make TP baseline and change all 3 talents.

That Ghost Wolf-related tier that someone suggested seemed pretty awesome.

I agree..... make TP baseline, remove the totem talents as they are fairly boring and not very meaningful.....then make T3 a mobility tier, which includes a talent to improve GW (an on demand speed boost), plus a talent for a gap closer/escape like shadowstep or "astral leap" type deal for a mobility tool on CD, and a third talent which gives us a passive speed boost like "+15% run speed and 30% reduction in snares/roots"......gives you 3 different, varied options for mobility which is something Shaman are lacking at the moment.


Regarding the new talent Totemic Persistance, I have suggested similar ideas for some time now, especially regarding the design flaws in the new totem system with long duration totems like SBT or Earth Elem interfering with other earth totems used on shorter CD's, plus Grounding totem not being able to protect totems like SLT or CPT. With this talent, you can use Grounding totem to soak up a hit meant for your CPT or SLT or Stormlash, all of which are usually targetted right away to be killed and can now be protected for an extra sec or two with grounding. Overall its a pretty boring talent, I don't see much PVE use for it really except the occasional moments where you might need to immediately drop tremor while a defensive totem is down or soemthing, but I see some decent uses in PVP.

Still....a really lame tier IMO and needs to be scrapped. Blizz wants to force us to like totems and make it feel like they are central to our class, but they are just spells on sticks and not in depth enough of a mechanic to devote a whole totem tier too, they are far too simplistic. Just give us Totemic Projection so players have more control over their totem use like hunters trap launcher, and make the tier into something actually useful.

[Aleksej89]

I agree with the "Ghost Wolf Tier" idea.

One talent could be a passive move speed bonus to GW, the 2nd can be a damage reduction while in GW, and the 3rd can heal us for a % of max HP every sec while in GW.

Just some random simplistic ideas - but ANYTHING is better than the totem tier.

[Nebria]

i'm not sure where this focus on ghostwolf is coming from. do you really find some ghostwolf improvement better for say raiding then the current totem talents? I don't think so.
most complain about ghostwolf is coming from pvp in my opinion. because people wan't a gap closer (which is not needed in my opinion. we can frost shock with glyph each 3s, shoud be enough to get to somebody) or to get some dispell of slows/roots when shifting like druids.
at least cote is a good and useful talent which I prefer over any ghostwolf talent mentioned so far.

[Lavindar]

i'm not sure where this focus on ghostwolf is coming from. do you really find some ghostwolf improvement better for say raiding then the current totem talents? I don't think so.
most complain about ghostwolf is coming from pvp in my opinion. because people wan't a gap closer (which is not needed in my opinion. we can frost shock with glyph each 3s, shoud be enough to get to somebody) or to get some dispell of slows/roots when shifting like druids.
at least cote is a good and useful talent which I prefer over any ghostwolf talent mentioned so far.

CoTE is a type of spell that is likely to be removed, (like Readiness), the other too should be baseline, and a Ghostwolf tier would be good, as it's a core spell of the class, and is very useful in PvE

[Darksoldierr]

Haha, they are already nerfing that new talent, i will eat my hat, if that talent will make it to live, such a terrible and useless idea for talent

[Nebria]

CoTE is a type of spell that is likely to be removed, (like Readiness), the other too should be baseline, and a Ghostwolf tier would be good, as it's a core spell of the class, and is very useful in PvE

what's your definition of core spell? ghostwolf is rarely used in pve. I use it when I have to move fast from a to b like quon with the tornados. that's it. else I walk/run around not in ghostwolf because I can shoot while moving.
would some improved speed good. for sure. but it is not needed. I like talents around my totems as this is what everbody use on a daily basis. that's a core mechanic of our class. so it makes sense.
not sure if they kill cote. it is not that strong as readiness (or is it limited to specific spells?). but who knows. the other two baseline would be really good if they kill the tier. but I don't see this happen in 5.4. perhaps next x-pack if there is enough complain^^

[Omanley]

i'm not sure where this focus on ghostwolf is coming from. do you really find some ghostwolf improvement better for say raiding then the current totem talents? I don't think so.
most complain about ghostwolf is coming from pvp in my opinion. because people wan't a gap closer (which is not needed in my opinion. we can frost shock with glyph each 3s, shoud be enough to get to somebody) or to get some dispell of slows/roots when shifting like druids.
at least cote is a good and useful talent which I prefer over any ghostwolf talent mentioned so far.

Ghostwolf means mobility, which is important in pve as well. You're right in that the major complain about it comes from pvp (which is obvious in that pvp has a higher utility requirement than pve). We can shock with the glyph every 3 sec alright, BUT:
-only if we sacrifice other glyphs (if you didn't notice, there's many, some of which are more or less mandatory, like healing storm, or shamanistic rage)
-only if we use Frost Shock (Flame Shock and Earth Shock are important for ele, and with enh going wf/ft in pvp next patch, UE:FT will benefit FS additionally to all the damage the shock gained with extended dot duration)
-Even continuously range snaring an enemy is no replacement for freedom/instant gap closer. You're snared in turn and worn down while being kited

A GW tier could consist of:
-A freedom effect triggered upon casting GW, for 3-6 seconds, with an internal cd of...~20sec => emphasisis on individual mobility/survivability, no separate ability
-A leap useable in gw form, aimable like that of a warrior (useable for both escaping and chasing) (active ability) => emphasisis on individual escaping/chasing
-A howl that removes you and your allies' snares/roots and/or increases movement speed (active ability on a 30 second+ cd) => emphasisis on group support

The ability to move out of danger faster, be back in action faster, or even support your group in doing so...why, I think all of the above have excellent applications in both pve and pvp, for each of the three specs (though yes, I'd probably be more inclined towards the first two, but a arena team with paladin might not need the first for example, or a druid team providing that aoe sprint instead, w/e

It would also bring more emphasisis back towards GW, and with that maybe model/visual effect updates, different animal forms maybe (renamed to spirit form or something), special abilities only usable while in it and so forth

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Haha, they are already nerfing that new talent, i will eat my hat, if that talent will make it to live, such a terrible and useless idea for talent

Better prepare pepper and salt then

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I like talents around my totems as this is what everbody use on a daily basis. that's a core mechanic of our class. so it makes sense.

No questioning that. Only that totems are a liability as a shaman, always have been since wotlk and even before that. The ability to use our utility cd freely like others comes now for us as a mop talent, where others can use theirs completely independent of each other. It's a joke that they even consider this as a talent, as it should've been baseline since MoP, since totems became cooldowns. Same with TP, which also should be a baseline ability. It's not even that useful, considering how good it would've been with no cd tremor and cleansing totem. Basically the entire totem tier is a joke.
In pvp, no matter how much they'll buff SBT and HTT, good players will stomp them and that's that. With TR removed, we wont even have any recompensation in form of lowered cd anymore (GG blizz), so stomping totems has never been more attractive. ( Oh look, there's EET AND SBT out, let's remove both, and enjoy 1 and 5 minutes of piece, yay).

Why form a talent tier around a design idea left to rot for years? No matter how iconic/core it is for shamans, if it stinks, nobody'll touch it.

[nazrakin]

Or you could have read the thread and realized often enough it wouldn't be a dps increase. If we want to be picky it's more of a dps decrease than projection now. Should we make projection on GCD to balance? Or is that 0.1% dps increase not important to you?

How about SBT? That's a lot more of a dps decrease than this talent would provide, and ironically is pretty much the only thing that can make this talent worth it in pretty much any situation for the dps specs.

But when it's a pathetic increase that most people in this thread will never actually successfully pull off twice a raid night (hint: we simplified it down but it isn't even as simple as it lasting a minute, there are indeed more factors), everyone whines about it until it gets changed.

Least they can do is try to make the second totem placement of the same school off the GCD if they are going to be that childish and pedantic.

I'm going to let you in on something that just may blow your mind.... elemental isn't the only Shaman spec. For Enhancement, it is absolutely a straight up DPS increase in just about any and every pve situation, especially in this tier where all but 1 or 2 fights are multi target. For Elemental, assuming its as bad as you as you say, then I still don't understand why you're so upset about holding on to such a "pathetic" bit of the talent.

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i'm not sure where this focus on ghostwolf is coming from. do you really find some ghostwolf improvement better for say raiding then the current totem talents? I don't think so.
most complain about ghostwolf is coming from pvp in my opinion. because people wan't a gap closer (which is not needed in my opinion. we can frost shock with glyph each 3s, shoud be enough to get to somebody) or to get some dispell of slows/roots when shifting like druids.
at least cote is a good and useful talent which I prefer over any ghostwolf talent mentioned so far.

I agree. I don't see the appeal to talents that are only active when you're in ghost wolf at all. A GOOD totem tier (not the current one) is far more appealing to me.

[wordup]

I'm going to let you in on something that just may blow your mind.... elemental isn't the only Shaman spec. For Enhancement, it is absolutely a straight up DPS increase in just about any and every pve situation, especially in this tier where all but 1 or 2 fights are multi target. For Elemental, assuming its as bad as you as you say, then I still don't understand why you're so upset about holding on to such a "pathetic" bit of the talent.

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I agree. I don't see the appeal to talents that are only active when you're in ghost wolf at all. A GOOD totem tier (not the current one) is far more appealing to me.

It's an increase, I agree, it is however quite a marginal one for Enhancement which is the only spec I can speak in real context of. It also is very niche increase given in SoO there isn't that many fights that a magma totem will be cleaving ontop of your searing, and make no mistake the balance of this talent is only relevant to the next tier. The issue is far more that it really excludes the appeal for enhancement. Micro managing an increase out of it would be reasonably difficult on a majority of fights (losing projection when you have two fire totems to maintain is BIG) and even moreso with the CDR trinket now being retuned to have Fire Ele affected for Enhancement too, you're looking at a very, very small overall increase in a fight (talking in the region of 0.2-4% on a really good day in a tailored fight).

[Teriz]

would some improved speed good. for sure. but it is not needed. I like talents around my totems as this is what everbody use on a daily basis. that's a core mechanic of our class. so it makes sense.

The problem is that totems are just a very strange gameplay mechanic. They're cooldowns, but they're cooldowns that can potentially boost your HPS and DPS to very high levels, so everything has to be tightly controlled. That in turn stifles creativity, and we're seeing that in the totem tier.

Best bet is to make CoE and Projection baseline, and just go with a GW tier. That will give Blizzard the freedom to actually make some interesting talents.

[Deleted]

Mastery is a pretty decent stat in 10hm, so i donut mind the mastery.

Nope, it's still subpar to any other secondary.

[nazrakin]

It's an increase, I agree, it is however quite a marginal one for Enhancement which is the only spec I can speak in real context of. It also is very niche increase given in SoO there isn't that many fights that a magma totem will be cleaving ontop of your searing, and make no mistake the balance of this talent is only relevant to the next tier. The issue is far more that it really excludes the appeal for enhancement. Micro managing an increase out of it would be reasonably difficult on a majority of fights (losing projection when you have two fire totems to maintain is BIG) and even moreso with the CDR trinket now being retuned to have Fire Ele affected for Enhancement too, you're looking at a very, very small overall increase in a fight (talking in the region of 0.2-4% on a really good day in a tailored fight).

Of course it is marginal -- however, that doesn't matter. There are plenty of things we do that provide marginal benefit, yet we do them in the interest of min/maxing.

Granted, I have not participated in the beta tests so I can't really speak on how well it works in that tier. Although I don't see how that CD reduction trinket makes the talent any worst since you're doubling up on FE+ST instead of ST+MT which is going to be much more effective.

[Deleted]

A GW tier could consist of:
-A freedom effect triggered upon casting GW, for 3-6 seconds, with an internal cd of...~20sec => emphasisis on individual mobility/survivability, no separate ability
-A leap useable in gw form, aimable like that of a warrior (useable for both escaping and chasing) (active ability) => emphasisis on individual escaping/chasing
-A howl that removes you and your allies' snares/roots and/or increases movement speed (active ability on a 30 second+ cd) => emphasisis on group support

Problem is that Windwalk Totem basically already has most of those effects. The mobility tier is already Tier 2.

If they wanted to make T3 a totem tier, those talents would've to be a lot better simply.

[Omanley]

Problem is that Windwalk Totem basically already has most of those effects. The mobility tier is already Tier 2.

If they wanted to make T3 a totem tier, those talents would've to be a lot better simply.

Tier 2 is actually the opposite, with wwt being the odd ball out. FP and EGT take mobility from the enemy, instead of giving you mobility. There is to say, the howl I suggested would require a new 3rd talent in the 2nd tier, as they'd be to similar.

[Raiju]

I'm going to let you in on something that just may blow your mind.... elemental isn't the only Shaman spec. For Enhancement, it is absolutely a straight up DPS increase in just about any and every pve situation, especially in this tier where all but 1 or 2 fights are multi target. For Elemental, assuming its as bad as you as you say, then I still don't understand why you're so upset about holding on to such a "pathetic" bit of the talent.

I'm going ot let you in on something that just may blow your mind... I main enhancement and all my comments were made with mainly enhancement in mind. I'm upset that people on these boards will seem to whine about something being mandatory when they wouldn't even get the benefit from it, and stopping the worst talent tier across any class from getting improvements with this attitude of reverting things back constantly. I thought the talent was meh, but usable, with it's marginal (occasional) dps increase. It now seems pretty much unusable unless you take SBT, which as mentioned decreases your dps by upto 1gcd/minute, an almost exact counter here to the dps you'd gain.

Yet noone sees this. They see you can place a second fire totem and it "must" always be a dps increase (wrong), not even factoring in how for enhance most of the benefit from searing is searing flames, something our 4set is likely to provide next tier (and in the future if made baseline), and leaving the totem with it's pretty pathetic damage done. Sure it's a dps increase, but then so is projection.

When I first saw the talent I had hte same thoughts as you as enhance, and especially last expansion when searing was much more important to us and elemental harmony was on the PTR. Unfortunately, since then I've actually looked at the numbers and thought where it would ACTUALLY be a guaranteed dps increase. More often than not, yes. But a talent that single target peaks at 0.2% and occasionally is below 0% is hardly a game breaker when we already have one with a similar gain (TP).

It's not about the talent itself though, as mentioned its the attitude that things can't move forward in the community. We should be open to seeing new mechanics brought in and actually working with them before screaming they won't work. I personally hate the idea of the new enha 4set but I'm not going to go whining that it still means we have no burst aoe, all it's done is shorten the rampup and given us a window to possibly make absolutely retarded numbers on a fight with enough adds. I will see how it works out and see if I enjoy working with it first, because like most I agree our AoE could do with some changes and am happy for Blizzard to poke and prod with their ideas. It'd be nice to see the same with all the people crying about the totem talent tier, but then throwing it back in their face immediately.

The talent looks poor, but if everyone says that before trying it out, it's not feedback it's complaints.

[nazrakin]

The problem is that totems are just a very strange gameplay mechanic. They're cooldowns, but they're cooldowns that can potentially boost your HPS and DPS to very high levels, so everything has to be tightly controlled. That in turn stifles creativity, and we're seeing that in the totem tier.

Best bet is to make CoE and Projection baseline, and just go with a GW tier. That will give Blizzard the freedom to actually make some interesting talents.

The problem is that the current totem tier is too situational and focused on how totems can be used. Instead, the tier should be about enhancing what they can do. Persistence is a step in the right direction, the Projection and CoE need to go so that it can shine. There's been a bunch of fun and interesting ideas thrown around various forums about totem talents. The "Totem Empowerment" and "Curse Totems" ideas I've seen thrown around this very forum could be a lot of fun.

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I'm going ot let you in on something that just may blow your mind... I main enhancement and all my comments were made with mainly enhancement in mind. I'm upset that people on these boards will seem to whine about something being mandatory when they wouldn't even get the benefit from it, and stopping the worst talent tier across any class from getting improvements with this attitude of reverting things back constantly. I thought the talent was meh, but usable, with it's marginal (occasional) dps increase. It now seems pretty much unusable unless you take SBT, which as mentioned decreases your dps by upto 1gcd/minute, an almost exact counter here to the dps you'd gain.

I agree the talent is horrible as is; but that is not what the argument is about. Its whether a DPS increasing talent (no matter how miniscule) compromises a "utility" tier.

Yet noone sees this. They see you can place a second fire totem and it "must" always be a dps increase (wrong), not even factoring in how for enhance most of the benefit from searing is searing flames, something our 4set is likely to provide next tier (and in the future if made baseline), and leaving the totem with it's pretty pathetic damage done. Sure it's a dps increase, but then so is projection.

When I first saw the talent I had hte same thoughts as you as enhance, and especially last expansion when searing was much more important to us and elemental harmony was on the PTR. Unfortunately, since then I've actually looked at the numbers and thought where it would ACTUALLY be a guaranteed dps increase. More often than not, yes. But a talent that single target peaks at 0.2% and occasionally is below 0% is hardly a game breaker when we already have one with a similar gain (TP).

Again, I agree the damage boost *is* pathetic, which is exactly why I don't understand why people are so upset about the restriction. That said, Persistence is potentially a DPS positive talent on practically every encounter. Projection is extremely situational and that number probably shrinks with a Fire totem friendly persistence. Something is always greater than nothing, no matter how tiny they may be and that is how most choices are made in this game. I'm using TP right now for that very reason.

It's not about the talent itself though, as mentioned its the attitude that things can't move forward in the community. We should be open to seeing new mechanics brought in and actually working with them before screaming they won't work. I personally hate the idea of the new enha 4set but I'm not going to go whining that it still means we have no burst aoe, all it's done is shorten the rampup and given us a window to possibly make absolutely retarded numbers on a fight with enough adds. I will see how it works out and see if I enjoy working with it first, because like most I agree our AoE could do with some changes and am happy for Blizzard to poke and prod with their ideas. It'd be nice to see the same with all the people crying about the totem talent tier, but then throwing it back in their face immediately.

Who has that attitude? As far as I've seen the community, overwhelming, hates the "totem tier" and wants to see Blizzard make TP baseline and go in a new direction with it. I didn't hop on here and demand that Persistence should be changed, I commented that I knew it would and that no one else should be surprised either.

The talent looks poor, but if everyone says that before trying it out, it's not feedback it's complaints.

What confuses me is that in one breath you're telling me that the talent is nearly worthless for DPS output. Then in another you're telling me that the fire totem restriction has made it unusable. If "peak 0.2%" DPS decides whether its worth using or not, then people have every right to complain.

[bladisha]

I agree the talent is horrible as is; but that is not what the argument is about. Its whether a DPS increasing talent (no matter how miniscule) compromises a "utility" tier.

Why people are discussing only about DPS? Our class has the 3rd specialization, and this tier directly affect their HPS. So, if it is such a huge problem to have one of those talents, in some situations, increase DPS, why should we stop there? Why not have whole tier 'agnostic' to either DPS&HPS, so it will be real utility tier?

Let's check it:

1. CoTE - not doing anything for DPS, but resets HST (zomg) and increase HPS -> lets all of us campain at Blizzard to remove HST from CoTE.

2. TProjection - increasing DPS in some cases (projecting searing/magma and stormlash), increasing HPS (projecting HST and HTT) -> wtf, Blizzard really needs to remove those from TP.

3. TPersistence - increasing HPS (can overlap HTT/HST/MTT) -> remove all water totems from it plz.

After those changes everyone will be happy to have real utility tier, which won't bloat our 'sacred' dps or hps.

Yeah, it will be utter garbage, but hey, it's pure utility and that's what counts.