New Frost Mastery: Icicles!

[Vynestra]

Okay guy's, here are not only proc results for the legendary cloak with stats -- But alarming results dmg-wise. AND this is on PTR WHILE icicles are still bugged, and aren't doing half of critical strike damage.

Also regarding the 4-set ..I never see the proc happen...is it broken atm?

Fire Mage (5k Haste build, Mage Armor for Combusts):

Spell Power	42186
Haste	5398
Hit	14.95%
Crit Chance	15645
Mastery	4551

Trinkets:
5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boxx X Loot X - Int Hit Trinket (5) { Int / Crit Proc }
Purified Bindings of Immerseus

Buffs:
Molten Armor (Mage Armor for Combusts)
Intellect
Flask

Tests (3 Minute Tests):

	Test 1	Test 2	Test 3	Test 4	Test 5
Total Damage	54,245,860	45,718,311	47,750,744	43,026,891	44,891,735
Cloak Damage	997,706 (1.9%)	870,411 (1.9%)	1,481,921 (3.2%)	1,437,482 (3.4%)	836,774 (1.9%)
Cloak Ticks	53	50	82	86	55
Cloak RPPM	3.38 PPM	3.38 PPM	3.38 PPM	3.38 PPM	3.38 PPM

---

Arcane Mage (Mastery Heavy):

Spell Power	39,277
Haste	7940
Hit	15.00%
Crit Chance	8296
Mastery	17300

Trinkets:
Alpha and Omega
Purified Bindings of Immerseus

Buffs:
Mage Armor
Intellect
Flask

Tests (3 Minute Tests):

	Test 1	Test 2	Test 3	Test 4	Test 5
Total Damage	42,459,7782	44,522,530	51,618,448	44,720,645	49,775,829
Cloak Damage	726,053 (1.7%)	829,768 (1.9%)	1,386,478 (2.7%)	788,919 (1.8%)	1,123,361 (2.3%)
Cloak Ticks	58	50	74	53	68
Cloak RPPM	3.56 PPM	3.56 PPM	3.56 PPM	3.56 PPM	3.56 PPM

---

Frost Mage (Haste Heavy):

Spell Power	40,690
Haste	16,832
Hit	15.31%
Crit Chance	8244
Mastery	5457

Trinkets:
Alpha and Omega
Purified Bindings of Immerseus

Buffs:
Frost Armor
Intellect
Flask

Tests (3 Minute Tests):

	Test 1	Test 2	Test 3	Test 4	Test 5
Total Damage	45,643,823	46,980,963	44,778,439	44,120,350	45,228,550
Cloak Damage	1,592,799 (4.1%)	868,384 (2.2%)	1,346,567 (3.6%)	1,146,825 (3.1%)	1,121,871 (3.0%)
Cloak Ticks	104	59	86	77	68
Cloak RPPM	3.91 PPM	3.91 PPM	3.91 PPM	3.91 PPM	3.91 PPM

---

From my testing it appears that some of the discrepancies between the tests are most likely do to Alter Time use in conjunction with the cloak procs. If you haven't done any testing before with the cloak please note that when the cloak procs you actually get a buff on you that stacks, such that your next damaging spell will cause the essence of yulon proc.

[pyrostorm9001]

Also regarding the 4-set mastery..I never see the proc happen...is it broken atm?

Glad you said that. I was just on and didnt notice the proc either. Did a 10 minute go at target dummies not a single 4p proc.

[jtmzac]

Its been bugged for a while now. You must have missed the couple of posts that have said the same.

Regarding those test results are they with full raid buffs? Just want to make sure.

Also where is the cloak rrpm number from? Self buffed at 15.7k haste rating the cloak tooltip says 4.11 rppm so is it just wrong?

[Divr]

Its been bugged for a while now. You must have missed the couple of posts that have said the same.

Regarding those test results are they with full raid buffs? Just want to make sure.

Also where is the cloak rrpm number from? Self buffed at 15.7k haste rating the cloak tooltip says 4.11 rppm so is it just wrong?

Buffs are listed...hard to get full raid buffs for testing on the PTR heh. RPPM numbers are based on stats listed and buffs listed.

[Sombrelune]

So right now Frost compete with Arcane and Fire on Patchwerk fights in normal gear. "Nihil novi sub sole". It is already the case.
I know that in your test, icicle and frigist blast ( 4P T16) are still broken but it's in 566+ Gear and furthermore in add + movement fights that i want to compare the 3 specs.
In fact with frosbolt scaling with nearly all secondary stats ( except hast with Meta/BL past the soft cap), I don't even fear the scaling in patchwerk fights.
With icicles new cleaving effect, maybe the scaling will be descent in immobile cleave fights.
But In the fights remaining, ( the majority of SOO fights), our instant poor scaling, worries me. BF FFB hit like wet noodles. Fortunely T16 bonus exist. IL don't scale with anything except Intel.

[Deleted]

@Vinestra : Good work !!

Fire:
I'm actually doing some test on PTR and the fire's 4p work really good form me. Like I said to you on twitter, it's value depend a lot on how you use IB.

1. not using IB, holding Pyro! for using with an FB while HU is up -- not really good, and require 50%+ crit.
2. using IB every HU than FB+Pyro! for instant proc. Pyro! is 100% and FB have 50%+ so it lead to another Pyro! (not at 100%). I have stack the 2p relatively easily up to 3/5 stacks.
3. using IB while Pyro! is up (generating HU) then casting Pyro! result in another Pyro! because casting Pyro after IB lead to guaranteed Pyro crit.

Using the 2&3 dynamically, I obtain that pyro was 59% of my DPS, with only 40% crit (frost stuff/reforged crit). Alpha & Omega is very good. it's near 1% crit by stack with a good uptime while the Int/Crit proc trinket have a long ICD.
I think it can be better but the 4p is long enough to wait for another HU before using it and only playing with like in 3. The fact that Pyro! is a guaranteed crit means it proc HU. Some sort of rotation can be found FB+Pyro! while IB is on cooldown ?


Frost:
The 4p don't work at all. it's reported twice to dev (I have add a reply by Holinka on Tweeter).
And with the Icicle's crit bug, we really need to wait for the next build to show up.

For Monday ?

[Vynestra]

@Vinestra : Good work !!

Fire:
I'm actually doing some test on PTR and the fire's 4p work really good form me. Like I said to you on twitter, it's value depend a lot on how you use IB.

1. not using IB, holding Pyro! for using with an FB while HU is up -- not really good, and require 50%+ crit.
2. using IB every HU than FB+Pyro! for instant proc. Pyro! is 100% and FB have 50%+ so it lead to another Pyro! (not at 100%). I have stack the 2p relatively easily up to 3/5 stacks.
3. using IB while Pyro! is up (generating HU) then casting Pyro! result in another Pyro! because casting Pyro after IB lead to guaranteed Pyro crit.

Using the 2&3 dynamically, I obtain that pyro was 59% of my DPS, with only 40% crit (frost stuff/reforged crit). Alpha & Omega is very good. it's near 1% crit by stack with a good uptime while the Int/Crit proc trinket have a long ICD.
I think it can be better but the 4p is long enough to wait for another HU before using it and only playing with like in 3. The fact that Pyro! is a guaranteed crit means it proc HU. Some sort of rotation can be found FB+Pyro! while IB is on cooldown ?


Frost:
The 4p don't work at all. it's reported twice to dev (I have add a reply by Holinka on Tweeter).
And with the Icicle's crit bug, we really need to wait for the next build to show up.

For Monday ?

It was divr who did all the testing :3! His info definitely proves useful. We have to see what comes in the numbers pass to see which spec reigns supreme

[Tiga]

Let's say you have 33% mastery and you have 3 icicles. Those three Icicles are guaranteed to do at least as much damage as a Frostbolt hit, potentially twice as much (3 crits). Let's say you have those 3 and Alter Time is going to restore whatever Icicles you had, so you lose those 3 soon. Even if you don't have a FoF proc, casting an Ice Lance will take 1 GCD, which will hopefully unload those Icicles before Alter Time expires. The timing may be tricky as the Icicles aren't consumed instantly.

My guess is that if you have 2 Icicles, it's not worth unloading those without FoF. If you have 3 or more, it's probably worth trying to use them. Since it's something you do every 3 minutes, I think it's safe to say you can ignore Icicles completely except as a burst target mechanic and it's not going to break your DPS if you do.

[Tobedeleted123]

So right now Frost compete with Arcane and Fire on Patchwerk fights in normal gear. "Nihil novi sub sole". It is already the case.
I know that in your test, icicle and frigist blast ( 4P T16) are still broken but it's in 566+ Gear and furthermore in add + movement fights that i want to compare the 3 specs.
In fact with frosbolt scaling with nearly all secondary stats ( except hast with Meta/BL past the soft cap), I don't even fear the scaling in patchwerk fights.
With icicles new cleaving effect, maybe the scaling will be descent in immobile cleave fights.
But In the fights remaining, ( the majority of SOO fights), our instant poor scaling, worries me. BF FFB hit like wet noodles. Fortunely T16 bonus exist. IL don't scale with anything except Intel.

:O really? is that a moment everyone has been waiting for? (well, everyone is a bit of a stretch ) will frost for once be a competetive spec for progression? blizzard pls.

[Polarthief]

So right now Frost compete with Arcane and Fire on Patchwerk fights in normal gear. "Nihil novi sub sole". It is already the case.
I know that in your test, icicle and frigist blast ( 4P T16) are still broken but it's in 566+ Gear and furthermore in add + movement fights that i want to compare the 3 specs.
In fact with frosbolt scaling with nearly all secondary stats ( except hast with Meta/BL past the soft cap), I don't even fear the scaling in patchwerk fights.
With icicles new cleaving effect, maybe the scaling will be descent in immobile cleave fights.
But In the fights remaining, ( the majority of SOO fights), our instant poor scaling, worries me. BF FFB hit like wet noodles. Fortunely T16 bonus exist. IL don't scale with anything except Intel.

If your first sentence is true (which I'm still COMPLETELY skeptical of), then Frost will obviously beat out Arcane on movement fights, but Fire will still be top (but keep in mind, Fire's always RNG)

[Deleted]

Nah the first sentence is not true - unfortunately. Everyone can test it: just "pull" a dummy on PTR with all 3 specs, boodlust, the new trinkets, buffed with flask and food only and lets go!! stop 30s after your 4th AT (right after Time Lord).

The first few minutes looks like arcane and fire are level 95, while frost is still a 90s toon. After ~5 minutes, frost is ~10 - 15% behind the other two specs and stay there till the iteratons is over (~10:30 min). With raidbuffs the gap rises, because arcane and fire scale way better than frost. Sure we´re missing a little bit damage, because we do not get crit damage in our mastery atm (bug will fixed with the next PTR patch). We are losing our icicle stacks during alter time, if the last spell is not FoF Ice Lance (not worth casting non FoF!) and Alpha and Omega trinket stacks pretty slow whithout Frozen Orb (Icicles and Waterbolt doesn`t stack it).

I often switch between frost and arcane during PTR raid tests. The heroic test with ilvl 550/560 really showed how poor frost scaling is. Other specs and classes getting stronger and stronger, while frost falling behind very quick and continuously.

We have a pretty nice looking water elemental now and frostbolt debuff is gone, but in the end, the new mastery is a pvp change/band-aid/chore/humilation.

Let's say you have 33% mastery and you have 3 icicles. Those three Icicles are guaranteed to do at least as much damage as a Frostbolt hit, potentially twice as much (3 crits). Let's say you have those 3 and Alter Time is going to restore whatever Icicles you had, so you lose those 3 soon. Even if you don't have a FoF proc, casting an Ice Lance will take 1 GCD, which will hopefully unload those Icicles before Alter Time expires. The timing may be tricky as the Icicles aren't consumed instantly.

My guess is that if you have 2 Icicles, it's not worth unloading those without FoF. If you have 3 or more, it's probably worth trying to use them. Since it's something you do every 3 minutes, I think it's safe to say you can ignore Icicles completely except as a burst target mechanic and it's not going to break your DPS if you do.

It´s not worth cast non FoF IL. Icy Veins split FB, FFB, IL and WB in 3 smaller bolts and each do 40%. So what you get is the mastery (33%) between a (1 Frostbolt) 120% frostbolt hit or crit or (2 Frostbolts) 200% frostbolt hit or crit. If your last spell is 120% Frostbolt or non FoF IL + 5 mini Icicles - cast Frostbolt, but the optimal use would be to safe 1 FoF for the last second, but you will be punished if you have to reset AT because of a random boss ability.

[Vynestra]

If your first sentence is true (which I'm still COMPLETELY skeptical of), then Frost will obviously beat out Arcane on movement fights, but Fire will still be top (but keep in mind, Fire's always RNG)

Look at the data I posted...You can see clear as day fire vs. frost. And that's with frost icicles bugged and fire not nerfed yet...I mean the proof is in the testing!

[Zatetic]

What I noticed is significantly different amounts of spell power, different hit ratings.

and even then a good frost run is on par with an average fire run, and a good fire run is 10 mil damage in front (over 3 minutes, presumably 20mil in 6 minutes, 30 mil in 9 minutes -which is huge).

[Deleted]

Yeah those tests say absolutley nothing. You need minimum of 10 Minutes imho and same gear under same conditions. As I already said, Arcane and Fire are way ahead of frost.

[Sombrelune]

My first sentence was related to Vynestra tests. If it numbers are true, the 3 specs are closed in 3 min patchwerk fights ( don't forget that his testing is with bugged icicles and bugged 4P T16, and that lore announced that a fire nerf is probably coming).

It's absurd to test the 3 specs with the same gear. I think and I hope, that the test use the optimal gear ( available) for each spec ( Look at the trinkets for example) .What would be the point to test a fire mage with a BIS arcane set, reforged to fire ?
I think this explain the little difference in spellpower. The difference in hit rating is logical. You want to maximise you best secondary stats, with around 15% hit ( so 14, 95 or 15 or 15,31 don't matter.)
3 min fight is not representative. But If we are indeed closed to fire and arcane mage in those 3 min, it's a good sign for Frost mage, because like you said, Pete, those first minutes it's where Fire and Arcane shine due their scaling to procs.
But patchwerk fight is not representative too.

In Live in such fight I beat regularly our fire mage ( not always of course).In megaera hm we're close ( I'm ahead thanks to arcane adds).In qwons hm after the pull, I'm not in the top ten recount, while fire mages are in top 3, but in the end I'm often in top 5 before fire mages. In twins P1 firemage mages are in top 3 due to combustion spreading but after aoe phase, it's over for them.
So I'm confident when I say that right now if a patchwerk would exist, ( so no movement, no adds, no power up) frost mage could match fire mage ( I can't say if arcane mage are ahead though)


My fear is that this kind of encounter doen't exist anymore. So with power ups ( jinrock/Horridon/Jikun/Primordius), 3+ adds spreading (Horridon last phase, Concil, Tortos turtles, Durumu hm, ) it's very difficult, not to say, impossible to match a good fire mage in frost.


To Pete : Are you sure for alpha and omega? I read somewhere ( I don't remember right now) that alpha and omega stacked with nearly everything ( icicles, counterspell, temporal shield, mana gem , gliders....)

[Deleted]

The numbers are far away from true, because the burst between fire/arcane and frost are poles apart! On live, my opening burst depends on warriors in our raid. 2 - 3 warriors are up to 500k burst, but the fire guys doing up to 1 million. Maybe I can record a twitch video on ptr wit arcane and frost.

[Sombrelune]

If the fire guys are doing 1 million with the nerfed amp trinket, what were they doing with the 84% amp? Don't get me wrong I believe you, but I'm curious to know.
And maybe with alpha and omega the opener is greater but in 10 min fights "5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boxx X Loot X - Int Hit Trinket (5) { Int / Crit Proc }" is better.
Alpha and omega is for now the only rppm caster trinket.
"5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boxx X Loot X - Int Hit Trinket (5) { Int / Crit Proc }" and "amp trinket" have same duration and icd ( 105 sec I think ), so maybe better synergy over the fight with each combustion.

[Deleted]

Uhm, I was talking about live ^^

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...e/?s=226&e=425

With the 84% one, I was able to burst over 1.5 Million vs Dummies with all procs on PTR. Regarding Alpha and Omega: Yes I´m sure it doesn't stack with Icicles and that need to be fixed.

[Deleted]

Uhm, I was talking about live ^^

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...e/?s=226&e=425

With the 84% one, I was able to burst over 1.5 Million vs Dummies with all procs on PTR. Regarding Alpha and Omega: Yes I´m sure it doesn't stack with Icicles and that need to be fixed.

The number of "fix needed" with Icicle began to be huge. Did you keep a list ?
How is supposed to interact Legendary cloak and Icicle ? maybe it will need to be fixed too ...

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Icicles are not supposed to trigger anything "on spell hit." Likely because we could stack A&O almost instantly. I'm sure there are some other concerns with them as well. Seems stupid given orb can stack it, though. On the other hand, mini-bolts from GoIV don't count as spell hits either...