[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Kyuuseishu]

Where is the best place to put or send PTR logs to show devs ? are there any devs on this forum we can pm that ppl know of? I remember GC saying logs are the best things to send them to prove any points....

HINT: Any Blizzard Devs here that can identify themselves??

I don't particularly want to post them here if its on hc testing. or maybe i shouldn't care so much....

PS. I guess the devs won't identify themselves here lol or all hell will break loose lol

I don't see GC accepting the logs, considering he outright turned down Aladya's offer of theirs of testing a week or so back.

[NeverStop]

Judgment for Holy Paladins now costs 12% of base mana to cast (up from 5% of base mana).

GG SH build?

On the bright side:

Sacred Shield for Holy Paladins can now be active on more than one target at a time, but the talent now costs mana, and has 3 charges with a 10-second recharge.

[Deleted]

I don't see GC accepting the logs, considering he outright turned down Aladya's offer of theirs of testing a week or so back.

Ah ok thanks. Oh well this is getting pretty depressing isn't it. I am definitely not going to play a spec where I need to judge all the time.

And even if they buff LOD (which they already said they won't) and make it OP or borderline OP then the rotation will be back similar to T11 HS-HR-HR-LOD which is the reason I swapped to mage that tier as thats the most retarded thing ever and takes no skill to do at all.

On the plus side, I got 3 runestones on my priest this week, so only need 8 more for the cloak.

Now I just need to practise holy priest some more

(tabbing to priest forums)...

- - - Updated - - -

Judgment for Holy Paladins now costs 12% of base mana to cast (up from 5% of base mana).

GG SH build?

On the bright side:

Sacred Shield for Holy Paladins can now be active on more than one target at a time, but the talent now costs mana, and has 3 charges with a 10-second recharge.

hmmm but that just means yes we can get them off quickly at the start and do the maintenance all in 1 go rather than interrupting whatever else we doing to keep them up right?

it doesn't mean we can get any more than 3 going at any 1 time right?

um

and ye wth is that with judgement? are they just taking the piss now or what

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and more generally, I thought they said they done with mechanics? if they still changing things then maybe they can still revert this madness!

[Freia]

I don't think the devs know what they hell they want at this point.

[Lucyrotten]

I came here to post the changes but y'all are too fast for me.

I have NO idea wth is going on now. I don't like judging so this is a plus as far as I'm concerned. People have been asking for charges on SS so I guess we get that to play with now too.

[Freia]

I came here to post the changes but y'all are too fast for me.

I have NO idea wth is going on now. I don't like judging so this is a plus as far as I'm concerned. People have been asking for charges on SS so I guess we get that to play with now too.

Issue with SS is the horrible scaling among orher things, I doubt the change will fix anything.

[Deleted]

meh i had a massive brainfart.. base mana is 60k not 300k :P

So 7200 mana.. = 33% reduction from the talent. So it's mana Neutral now. for 1 HoPo and 33% faster cast/stronger cast of HR. which you will never see 3 stacks of. Well perhaps a HS->J->-CS rotation when it's low damage phase you can stack it up for when the aoe damage hits. But why waste the time if you can just go for the full blown HS->HR->HR->LoD Rotation.

Well it's not gone.. just not on the EU notes.

meh fixed it ages ago..... just didn't hit submit... before you guys even quoted me. Sorry but it's 4am :P

[Dubalicious]

Judgment for Holy Paladins now costs 12% of base mana to cast (up from 5% of base mana).

Maybe setting it up to give it a secondary effect of some sort? Idk, if that's the only change then this is getting kinda ridiculous.

The T45 talents as a whole are still a complete disaster imo.

[Deleted]

Maybe setting it up to give it a secondary effect of some sort? Idk, if that's the only change then this is getting kinda ridiculous.

The T45 talents as a whole are still a complete disaster imo.

and yet they are STILL spending time messing around with them when I thought they should be looking at the other stuff more........

[Freia]

Our base mana is 60k. Notice 5% of 300k isn't 3k which is the cost now.

[Kyuuseishu]

Well lets stop the theory crafting on SH then ladies... Some idiot must have fat-fingered that because unless that number caused a brainfart 36k for a judgment...

Well it's not gone.. just not on the EU notes.

12% base mana, which means 0.12 * 60000 which is 7.2k per judgment, and increase of 140%.

[Deleted]

Well lets stop the theory crafting on SH then ladies... Some idiot must have fat-fingered that because unless that number caused a brainfart 36k for a judgment...

Well it's not gone.. just not on the EU notes.

base mana at lvl 90 is 60k mana (ie. before u get the 400% buff from choosing the healing spec).

so judgement goes from 3k cost to 7.2k cost. it's the principle for the change that gets me...the actual figures will not kill the talent as a choice but then who cares when they spending time tweaking this but not the important stuff...

HS costs 9.6k mana, and heals, gives 1 HP, can give infusion procs. hmmmm makes sense right?

what's the bet they gonna increase HS mana cost soon as well....don't want to be giving all that nice healing and infusion procs for almost same cost as judgement right? that just wouldn't be right guys.............

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[Freia]

Yep too much time on talents over actually fixing our toolkit.

[Endule]

the Judgment mana cost doesn't even matter much. in 547 ilvl gear the most i could regem and reforge out of was 8.3k spirit unless i reforge the spirit on crit items vs crit to mastery. but even then 8.3k spirit was still more then we needed at 3k cost.
7.2k mana cost hardly results in much more spirit needed then that if any more at all on release. especially if you have two rshamans its gg mana even with 8k spirit. but at worse, maybe you loose several hundred haste for more spirit which is whatever when almost everything is a gcd.

[nightfalls]

Plus side: SH is becoming "less" mandatory.
Minus side: We're looking at 3 equally shitty 45 talents versus 1 good and 2 shitty 45 talents. I'm sorry but I have always preferred the latter situation.

Something that Devs (and many idiot players) seem to lose track of is the concept that you are only as good as your best talent. Meaning 3 equally shitty talents makes a shit class regardless of how it's seen or how equal they are in shittiness.

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Yep too much time on talents over actually fixing our toolkit.

The thing is this: The original design behind the 45 talent row was that it was supposed to be a single target healing talent. The problem is that for actual healers (i.e. not ret and not prot), single target healing is largely useless given the state of healing today.

So since Blizzard did not want to alter our actual base toolkit, they changed EF to allow for multi-target healing and it became default, now they want to gut that but make the other talents more "multi-target friendly" but are balking at actually doing enough, so the result is we are looking at being stuck with 3 crap talents as an excuse for a worse base toolkit.

Not to mention every ability so far is a clumsy version of other healers' much smoother toolkits. I'll be making a post on Blizz forums soon but basically what I think needs changes (mechanics wise, tuning is completely another story).

1. Devotion Aura needs to work on all damage. About 4 minutes into Gold Proving Grounds will demonstrate this. It's actual % reduction does not need a buff, rather the other "YOLO" throughput-based cooldowns need (significant, for that matter) nerfs.

2. For Holy, Sanctity of Battle needs to reduce cooldowns based on spell haste, not melee haste. Unlike the other two specs, we are the spec that depends on casting things (spell haste). You can argue that not everything needs to scale identically but right now especially when taking even nerfed SH, the rotation is clumsy enough with two required use-every-5-seconds abilities without it being altered at every level of spell haste. Even without factoring in the fact that the spell priority/rotation/HP management changes dramatically with each level of spell haste, the rotation is far more clumsy and micromanagement-oriented than say disc priest or even monk.

3. This should be brought up more. I didn't even get an answer when I asked on official forums whether Beacon not being castable on friendly NPC targets is intentional or not. If it is, we are significantly behind on single target healing to the point where we might as well delete our characters for those fights, because our single target healing abilities are 100% balanced around Beacon of Light. If not, then they need to fix the bug, considering it hasn't been fixed (only extended) throughout multiple PTR builds, I wouldn't be surprised if it went live. I am one of 3-4 people who brought this up and one of the only people who pointed out Beacon specifically so far.

4. An extra HoT on Light of Dawn is a good way of buffing the ability but adding restrictions to the buffs. It buffs the ability so long as it is not spammed or used when few targets are taking damage (as the HoT can be over-ridden), this in my opinion is can be more dynamic than just increasing the damage on it (which it does need one).

[Healmeprease]

So... SS it is!

[Freia]

I think they are too focused on making sure we are not all using that same 45 tier talent. So every time one becomes the most used they are just going to nerf it. They need to get over it. Pretty sure every one of my characters has talents that are mandatory for their spec. And of course, they should have focused on compensating for the nerfs by buffing our base toolkit so we wouldn't have had to rely so heavily on that tier of talents.

Edit: Didn't see your additions when making this post, Void. XD

[nightfalls]

I think they are too focused on making sure we are not all using that same 45 tier talent. So every time one becomes the most used they are just going to nerf it. They need to get over it. Pretty sure every one of my characters has talents that are mandatory for their spec. And of course, they should have focused on compensating for the nerfs by buffing our base toolkit so we wouldn't have had to rely so heavily on that tier of talents.

They are tunnel visioning on this shit when meanwhile HR and Sanctuary are out of control and are still not fixed, so you can increase the SH bonus by 200% and it still won't do anything.

So... SS it is!

Given your "contributions" so far and the way design has been going, I suggest you wait until the end of this PTR cycle when the bandwagon has been decided.

Until then it will be constantly changing, and you don't seem to be making an effort to giving an informed (not "I used SS in 5.1") opinion on what changes should be made.


Off Topic: Making an accurate spreadsheet absolutely sucks.

[Bythelights]

How is SH becomeing less mandatory? Even decent players do not realize how new changes effect our class much less bad ones. That SS charge change does literally nothing for the talent for good players. The only thing is does is maybe make it more newb friendly or if you mess up. The only time that could really help me is if the fight forces me to be out of range of everybody for a while. Then I could only keep ss on myself and I would have 2 charges to instantly apply on 2 others when i get back in range.

Yeah I hate SS but if they actually buff its healing of course I will use it. I would spam 1 button, macro an ability into every heal, or juggle oranges irl while healing if its competitive. Pretty obvious that you are only as good as your best talents, gearing, and "rotation" allow. Right now on ptr I think my cat playing a druid/priest/shamen could give me a run for my money hps wise.

PS but my cat stands in more bad fire then I do.

[nightfalls]

How is SH becomeing less mandatory? Even decent players do not realize how new changes effect our class much less bad ones. That SS charge change does literally nothing for the talent for good players. The only thing is does is maybe make it more newb friendly or if you mess up. The only time that could really help me is if the fight forces me to be out of range of everybody for a while. Then I could only keep ss on myself and I would have 2 charges to instantly apply on 2 others when i get back in range.

SH becomes "less" mandatory because it is less of a gain due to nerf than having no talent at all. That's not a good way to make something "less" mandatory I am aware.

SS is crap because most actual healing (read: raid healing) is not improved at all via the talent, and even on "tank heavy" fights most healers will just rely on more beacon/tank heals/absorbs in the first place to the point where the SS is really just icing. Compare spike healing to TDR, all the SS adds is extra TDR.

Considering "most" fights are two tanked also this 3rd charge is not very useful. Plus the fact that it's yet more maintenance and "drudgework." Where most healers only have to worry about maintaining one "tank heal effect" we now have Beacon AND up to 3 sacred shields to micromanage.