[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Iceadin]

The comments from yesterday just further prove to me that output numbers mean almost nothing to the devs. They care more about the proportion of players playing these healing classes rather than how the individual classes do.

It's a sad, sad state of affairs when the ones with the most passion for it are being ignored and told they're wrong. The slap in the face hurts and will continue to hurt for weeks after 5.4 release.

It's very annoying honestly. I hope something changes because I don't really enjoy the SH playstyle that much.

[nightfalls]

It's very annoying honestly. I hope something changes because I don't really enjoy the SH playstyle that much.

SS is probably the one thing to me that's worse than SH.

[Iceadin]

SS is probably the one thing to me that's worse than SH.

I can't really say much about SS because I haven't experimented with it on the ptr yet, but I'm Not expecting it to be great either

[Verdell]

I can't really say much about SS because I haven't experimented with it on the ptr yet, but I'm Not expecting it to be great either

I don't see a reason to, not in a 25 man setting. Unless they buff the crap out of it or scale it with Mastery.

[xiloclipse]

Its a much bigger nerf then 7% given the level of mastery that you can reach in SoO gear. Not to mention the nerf of the shield not holding for damage to break it, a lesser concern in 10 man where LoD hits 60% of the raid, but massive in 25 man.

The problem isn't that SH is getting a nerf. I hate SH myself. The problem is the LEAD DEVELOPER saying
" Aside from EF (which is small) and SoI (which we compensated for), which nerfs are you talking about?"

Let me make this clear, as it might not be obvious
1) On average LoD>EF on the PTR. This instantly kills EF at root level, as a talent EF needs to outheal LoD by a substantial margin.
2) Current SoI+Current DP will outregen PTR DP on a fight you can melee on by 5 times.

The issues against us are numerous

1)We need the raid more stacked then shamans to aoe heal in 25 man
2)We don't benefit from the legendary cloak as much as the the other healing classes minus disc priest, the legendary cloak is available from first day 5.4
3)We are the 2nd to last healers on output on live and we are getting nerfed, while other classes have either been untouched or buffed significantly
4)Nothing has been done for Devotion Aura despite various encounters in SoO once again having physical raid wide dmg

The response from Blizzard is completely unacceptable. There are countless threads, the US Paladin thread alone has over 56 pages, there are logs at developer discretion, the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative with countless tweets, blogs and so on. And yet, I just couldn't believe my eyes when i read his reply this morning.

The response from devs really has been terrible, and they seem incredibly out of touch with the game. What is sad, is that decisions and opinions seem to be based off limited data, and certainly not the same wealth of data us players are looking at. A comment lore made today about RPPM comes to mind, where he stated (more or less) that "I don't think unerring not procing on the pull could possibly be that big a deal", rather than just looking at parses, which show the opposite in spades. What about the DK rune problem? DKs have been saying there was something wrong with trinket procs for a long time now, how did it take so long to catch, and why was it a player and not a dev that caught it?

GC stating that we are in a good place seems insane. Literally the only thing making SH somewhat viable, was forging completely out of spirit, and then running an amp trinket. The 2.5x mana cost increase to judgement is a massive nerf to SH, and makes it far less viable in my opinion, though I suppose only time will tell.

That said, none of these specs are very viable.

I find it somewhat ironic looking at the reverting monk nerfs. I mean, they really got out the ass beating stick for them, mana tea, chi generation, even ReM didn't generate chi. Monks will not only come out of this PTR able to run no spirit, they will also gain RJW, which is absurdly powerful. The ability to cast a complete SKC in one GCD is OP, let alone that you can potentially generate mana back from it if you proc muscle memory, and that GCD fits in perfectly with the meta gem proc. Oh, and btw, we thought their mastery wasn't so hot, so we added a 40% absorb component to it, like are you kidding?

I realize we're trying not to start talking about other healers again, but in order to see how piss poor pallies are right now, it isn't enough to just compare it to live, which is still plenty bad. We have to look at what other healers will do in 5.4, which seems to be on an entirely different level to be honest.

It's the whole philosophy, which seems to be that pallies are OP. EF was too powerful, so rather than buff other talents, we nerfed it to the ground. SH is an obvious talent choice, so rather than buff the other talents, lets nerf SH, which pre nerf wasn't anywhere close to making pallies viable.

To be fair as well, we're just the bad flavor of the month, this has happened plenty of other times with other classes. I think the problem lies in that devs don't play the game at a high level, or don't consult people that do (or if they do, they're clearly crap). We have a monk class balancer on our server, and although he's a nice guy, he's one of the absolute worst players that ever saw HM content. It's really sad when devs seem to not understand so many things that seem fundamental to the rest of us.

There really does seem to be a disconnect here. My biggest fear when I saw the original EF nerf wasn't that it had been nerfed, but why devs stated it had been nerfed, and how small of a nerf to the class they really felt it was (vs a 20-30% nerf to overall healing, as Aladya mentioned months ago).

All this surrounded by a message of "bring the player not the class".

[nightfalls]

All this surrounded by a message of "bring the player not the class".

Given how shitty SS and SH play, I don't think this will be necessary if the patch goes live as is.

[Kyuuseishu]

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...74355038109697

I'm wondering what logs he's pulling the numbers from.

[Deleted]

Well GC just admitted he did look at a log (Aladya's)...

Let's all send him some logs with the different specs after Thursday's testing.

[Deleted]

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...74355038109697

I'm wondering what logs he's pulling the numbers from.

Some random farm log on WoL i guess.

@Ady_Mx You think it should be bubbling the whole raid with EF spam? That's what we're trying to avoid.

I mean lets be serious. Does anything in 5.4 change anything about spamming HR+Finisher on the raid for bubbles? Nope, we're just worse at it.

[jce4ever]

GC new post

Incidentally, if you think the logs I used for the EF calculations weren't fair, feel free to send me others. 5.4 logs are very useful too.

[Deleted]

GC new post

Incidentally, if you think the logs I used for the EF calculations weren't fair, feel free to send me others. 5.4 logs are very useful too.

WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS.

On a side note, Aladya stop topping your healing meters pls, you're getting us NERFED!!!! haha

[Verdell]

WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS.

On a side note, Aladya stop topping your healing meters pls, you're getting us NERFED!!!! haha

"If you not 1st, you're last!" Ricky Bobby :P

[xiloclipse]

I mean, obviously he should be looking at 5.4 logs. Am I wrong to think it is insane to look at live logs in order to balance PTR, especially this deep into changes?

Unless he's trying to see exactly how valuable EF was, although it's kind of hard to view just how much of illuminated healing was from EF, or the value of your shields falling off just by glancing at a log, certainly one can see how much less illuminated we have using the same EF rotation now in PTR compared to 5.3. A before and after shouldn't be difficult though. From what I understand, EF would be played the same on PTR as it is currently, unless there's some mysterious point in which we should be using LoD instead of EF as a finisher. You're not really building any more HP, you're not gaining any less, your fillers haven't changed, EF just blows. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Like I find it odd that the assumption that hpally was relying almost entirely on the interaction between EF and illuminated, is still somehow up for debate. The other talents still don't cover spread healing, and LoD still hits like a wet noodle. Although it does hit a larger % of the raid in 10m, it really just becomes a dumbed down version of EF, where you're doing massive overheals but counting on mastery to make it worthwhile.

And the mana regen, shouldn't this be completely obvious? Mana gains on melee fights (which are most fights) are going to be down drastically. DP is incredibly under powered, and again it sees another loss because once you have more spirit than the minimum return, you are no longer benefiting from max mana increases like hymn (again correct me if I'm wrong).

[Deleted]

"If you not 1st, you're last!" Ricky Bobby :P

shake n bake

[PosPosPos]

xiloclipse

LoD itself overheals far less than EF. However, the mastery shield generated by LoD tends to overheal a lot more than by EF.

It balances themselves there, assuming LoD has a comparable heal amount to EF. Except it isn't, and it's hurting us a lot as a result.

LoD may hit the lowest health targets, but it doesn't necessarily hit targets who need the shield more.

EF needs to be redesigned from bottom up. Instead of just changing WoG it should affect both LoD and WoG. Then keep SH as the mana efficient option, and readjust SS to become the tank nanny option.

everyone else

DP is fine. Yes, I am saying our regen is fine even without SoI. The problem now is pretty much every other healer are infinitely more mana efficient than us. They are the ones who should be nerfed to our level, not we buffed to theirs. Healers should always have to manage their resource(mana) and choose between throughput and longevity, moreso than any other role. Recent buffs and lack of a design focus have deviated widely from that and GC should correct that.

[bouchbagfett]

GC new post

Incidentally, if you think the logs I used for the EF calculations weren't fair, feel free to send me others. 5.4 logs are very useful too.

I posted similar before but here are charts from 10 man logs on how much EF rolling IH contributed to my total healing. As mastery scales up in 5.4 the nerf will be more pronounced.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...e/?s=520&e=802


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4546&e=4863

[nightfalls]

I'll post my screenshots, based on ~42% raid buffed mastery. My gear has changed week to week, so I can't really pull the exact % but it will be somewhere within that neighborhood. Averaging around 7.5% HPS loss given exact same spec/actions of course.

Sources can be given on request or those who know me can find it, the logs are quite public. Tortos is not included because WoL is very strange with how they calculate overhealing and such.

[Pasture]

Lots more Twitter commentary on Holy Paladins:

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 5h
@Ghostcrawler Last but not least, why are you still dodging the 5.4 Pala niche question? U said you don't want us EF bubbling the raid...

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@Ady_Mx But I think it is fair to say that nobody went into MoP thinking paladins were the masters of hot based absorbs and needed more.

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@Ady_Mx We just overbuffed Eternal Flame at the last minute before launch. Perhaps it even masked weaknesses in other areas.

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 5h
@Ghostcrawler I don't think they weren't fair,but taken like a direct % you forget that EF is spread and that it refreshes IH to 45 secs.

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@Ady_Mx Yeah, EF spreading is cool and should be a strength of choosing that talent. It's just IH that makes it the only choice in 5.3.

ykiigor ‏@ykiigor_ 10h
@Ghostcrawler @Rathimis And we lose more than 5%. Hpallies lose their playstyle. And "new" playstyle with SH is not fun for 95% of community

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@ykiigor_ Not sure you can speak for 95% of the community, but if around 30% chose SH, that would be just about ideal.

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 10h
@Ghostcrawler Do you think we spam heal HR and EF bubble the raid because we like it? There is no alternative, and 5.4 doesn't add any

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@Ady_Mx Ideally you could use LoD when clumped and EF when you wanted more finesse and didn't mind targeting multiple people.

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 4h
@Ghostcrawler I don't target,I mouseover. Explain me how the 5.4 changes are making that happen in any way.

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 4h
@Ady_Mx Using LoD vs. EF (minus bubbles) don't feel any different to you?

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 4h
@Ghostcrawler I haven't used EF on the PTR since it lost its bubbles. Its like current judge on live for holy paladins, lacking the point

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 4h

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler 4h
@Ady_Mx Then that sounds like the hot on EF needs to be stronger.

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 4h
@Ghostcrawler Whats the point unless it beats Resto/MW's hots. Remember the jack of all, master of none part, perfect example is 5.4's EF

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 3h
@Ghostcrawler I don't see how a stronger EF hot makes 1)LoD good 2)LoD good when clumped 3)EF more about finesse.

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 3h
@Ghostcrawler Unless there's some EF-LoD interaction, specing EF might as well replace both LoD and WoG. Or you just spec SS or SH instead

Aladya ‏@Ady_Mx 5h
@Ghostcrawler @InfinitoUltima My view is that you'\re not changing our EF blanketing ways. You're just making us worse at it in 25

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@Ady_Mx Then perhaps we haven't hit the sweet spot for SH and SS tuning (and possibly LoD).

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@Ady_Mx If you take EF, we're kind of okay with that. If every Holy paladin still does, then I agree we haven't fixed the problem.

Tobias P ‏@pascher24 5h
@Ghostcrawler Why does devotion aura still only work on phys dmg, hpalas will be the only healer without raid cds on some fights in siege.

Greg Street
‏@Ghostcrawler
@pascher24 Because it's very good in other situations. Encounter designers often consider Devo Aura the one they need to balance around.

I'm not happy with the answer on DA. As a cooldown it never feels like you're saving lives in the same dramatic way Hymn or Tranq do. A cooldown that only lasts 6 seconds, only has a 20% DR and won't work on half the fights in SoO, just isn't good enough. The main thing is it not working on physical fights. Healer cooldowns are relied on and I hate the situation that crops up fairly frequently where I just have to say, sorry, nothing to bring to the table. Guardian is usually my only option in those situations.

Also agreed with what was being said about making EF also work with LoD. EF should alter both our HP finishers, not just one. It makes no sense. It just marginalises the other.

[Simulacrum]

Presumably he means that they assume that the raid will always have devotion aura for any single, really big, rare, raid-wide magical damage attacks, because of how easy it is to use compared to other similar cooldowns like PW:B, and... uh, spirit link totem? But that's a pretty damn specific and specialized niche, I gotta say. How many of those have we had in MoP? An event that's so rare that entire raids (HoF the obvious one) don't contain a single fight where it's used is the ability that they "need to balance around"?

What does that even really mean? Does it mean that when they design encouners with periodic, massive raid-wide damage, that they don't account for other healer cooldowns? We're meant to heal through every nuclear inferno, and all rampages, and so on, using no cooldowns and only devotion aura? Obviously not... how can he even say that?

When is it "very good", anyway? Aside from dark animus, I can't think of a single place where I would consider it "very good", outside of situations where other cooldowns (like PW:B) are much better (such as megaera or twins or iron quon).

It's also dodging the part where it's a paladin cooldown, not a hpaladin one, but there you go.

[PosPosPos]

This is the main issue with taking EF(or not taking it).

The talent needs to make WoG significantly better than LoD if you take it.

And if it does, it becomes a mandatory talent.

Then when it becomes a mandatory talent, you have a design problem and have to nerf it back down so it isn't better than taking LoD.

Finally it becomes a talent nobody ever touches. People will just use LoD because its better than WoG.

I tried pushing for EF to effect both WoG and LoD, now it's up to GC to see if he wants it.