1. #3441
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    nice of you to go full ragemode from the start, clearly im talking about secondary stats, and hit /expertise is tank stats but u wouldnt take a hit/parry item as a dps now would you?
    That's the point.

    DPS don't want dodge/parry, as they don't serve any purpose.
    Tanks don't want dodge/parry, as they are inferior to all other options.

    So, rather than try to FORCE something that NOBODY wants, isn't it far simpler to just remove it? I'd say so (and have been saying so!), and it looks that we will be heading that way in 6.0.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  2. #3442
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    .So, rather than try to FORCE something that NOBODY wants, isn't it far simpler to just remove it? I'd say so (and have been saying so!), and it looks that we will be heading that way in 6.0.
    Point taken. but at the point we are right NOW it do feel like a waste to DE every single "real" tank item so to speak when it comes to the general stats. dont get me wrong. me love dat haste, just feels like we got a change that maybe was in to early, SoB should of become available for us at the same time the redesign tanking overall as you say seem to happen in 6.0

    : blizz knew that in Mop paladins would stack haste with this change. just cant figure out why they didnt remove d/p then for everything instead of just making it for 1 tank class (out of the plateclasses)
    Last edited by Sunnydee; 2013-08-02 at 02:51 PM.
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  3. #3443
    Deleted
    Wouldnt the far more logical solution to solving disenchanting d/p gear be removing dodge and parry from the gear all together? That would make the gear design much easier, loot tables smaller and easier to create, less items being disenchanted.

    If you really think about it, dodge and parry were never really tank stats, they were just the least shitty stats we had. We were forced into them. Stamina has always been the tank stat, the only other tank stat we really had was mastery in cataclysm. Okay, resistances were also good tanking stats.

    If you look at the gearing in the different expansion from wotlk to now.

    WotLK:

    -Get stamina
    -Get armor
    -Get resistance and block value gear for those fights it could be needed, I used resistance on Hodir, Anub heroic and Sindragosa heroic afaik.

    Cata:

    -Get CTC coverage at all costs
    -Stamina
    -Armor
    -Resistance items for wherever needed

    MoP:

    -Haste altering the entire speed of your rotation
    -Haste/Hit/Exp affecting your resource generation
    -Haste/Hit/Exp providing a real dps benefit for tanks, since tank dps now matters getting more gear on you also helps the raid with dps checks
    -Mastery as a defensive stat
    -Stamina
    -Armor
    -Crit viable to the point of sacrificing defensive stats in favor of dps

    Other than having more options than ever with how we gear, in previous expansions it was mostly get stat 1 as much as you can, then get stat 2 for everything else. Now we actually got several viable gearing strategies.

    Expertise hard cap>haste
    Expertise soft cap>haste
    mastery>all
    stamina>all
    crit>stam+mastery
    come 5.4 spell hit cap > avoidance > haste

    etc etc, there are just dozens of completely viable ways to gear. Never before did we have this many options to gear.

    Also, getting more gear has never been more fun. You actually see your character grow, since your dps is meaningful now, getting more gear you can see your dps go up, getting a new item is no longer "Yay, I got 500 more hp and 0.11% higher chance to dodge attacks!", now you can actually see your character grow far better.

    The interaction haste has with your character is far better aswell, as you get more gear, you can actually feel your rotation change, you feel your character evolve. Never before has any tank class had any gearing up mechanic as significant as this, it is imo the best designed mechanic any tank ever had.

    I am sorry, but I just see absolutely 0 benefit in any aspect from the previous gearing ways, other than nostalgia

  4. #3444
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Guessing its the bolded part thats crawling in me. traditional, lorewise. logic. if you consider what a tank is then you'd prefer to avoid damage as much as possible.

    the benefit? well, im guessing lootwise it could be benefitial. dont know how much d/p-mastery geared we disenchanted this expansion. but sure is alot, while slightly holding dps back since start of this tier for ex prot palas " atleast for us" almost got prio on dps items with haste on cuz we pushed out such dmg /heal that the tanks damage and healing actually helped progress more then the dps.

    I know it might sound bizarre in all but imao a tank should use tank stats, and no, saying "druids and monks dosnt need it", well there havent really been a leather item with dodge on since TBC. also they gain "tank stats" via agility same way we gain from str.
    Monk tier has dodge on it. And if they get "tank stats" from agility like we get them from strength, why not do away with d+p on gear? They don't need it. Why should we? Druids get dodge chance from agility, paladins get parry chance. Druids stack crit for their thing, we stack haste for ours.

    In Wrath we stacked armor and stamina. Fun times - not.
    In Cata we stacked mastery and stamina. Fun times - not. The only difference in our stats as we geared up was that we could shift more and more mastery gems into stamina.
    Last edited by Butler to Baby Sloths; 2013-08-02 at 02:51 PM.

  5. #3445
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Monk tier has dodge on it. And if they get "tank stats" from agility like we get them from strength, why not do away with d+p on gear? They don't need it. Why should we? Druids get dodge chance from agility, paladins get parry chance. Druids stack crit for their thing, we stack haste for ours.
    And monks stack crit + haste (to a point where their energy regain is comfortable)

  6. #3446
    FWIW, the Paladin AM system is probably the only reason I enjoyed tanking T15. I didn't know much about tanking apart from the misconception that tank = meat shield as I swapped over from Holy to Prot. However, as I started to get more acquainted with the class, I realized we brought so much more than being a moving punching bag.

    My opinion may not have much weight since I didn't tank previous expansions, but from what I gather, it was basically reaching specific defensive caps and then afking until you had to move out of the fire. The current system rewards good play (jump into an LFR and completely demolish another paladin at the same IL wearing full parry/stam gear in threat/dps/hps/et al) and makes it pretty obvious who understands the class and who doesn't.

    I was never one for lore, but I think the current AM system makes much more sense from a lore perspective as well. When I envision a tank, I don't imagine someone who necessarily avoids attacks (with monks being an exception), but someone who can take the full brunt of an attack head on. Regardless of how powerful someone may be, it seems silly to think that you can just step to the side and avoid a major attack (dodge). Makes sense to time your block with an attack to mitigate the damage it would cause.

  7. #3447
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Point taken. but at the point we are right NOW it do feel like a waste to DE every single "real" tank item so to speak when it comes to the general stats. dont get me wrong. me love dat haste, just feels like we got a change that maybe was in to early, SoB should of become available for us at the same time the redesign tanking overall as you say seem to happen in 6.0

    : blizz knew that in Mop paladins would stack haste with this change. just cant figure out why they didnt remove d/p then for everything instead of just making it for 1 tank class (out of the plateclasses)
    It's only a waste because the gear is still around, cluttering up loot tables and ruining bonus rolls

    SoB paved the way for the "great stat sweep of 6.0", which also seems to potentially include accuracy stats, based on recent tweets/posts. I in no way wish that it was delayed, as it is likely to thank for most of the forward progression of AM and tanking in general.

    I am interested to see how they "fix" DK/War tanks with the new stats, though. If history shows anything, it's that the pioneers are superb in their era, then greatly show their flaws when the new iterations are introduced. Case in point: DKs.

    BDK in LK, and moreso in Cata were the "AM hipsters", the pioneers of the system that favors timing and skill over "stand there and get hit". However, in the NEW age of AM for all, DS + Blood shield are some of the worst performers out of all the AM tools. They were great in their day, and helped pave the way for the rest of us, but now are archaic and have some serious flaws.

    What does this mean for us, since WE are the BDK's of the AM revolution 2.0?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  8. #3448
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    What does this mean for us, since WE are the BDK's of the AM revolution 2.0?
    Re-roll to warrior in anticipation of 6.0 buffs.

  9. #3449
    Rage system going to need a SERIOUS overhaul to be on par with the fluidity of HoPo/Chi and even Runes. Plus it's gotta remain viable for DPS warriors too...Not sure how that's going to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #3450
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Rage system going to need a SERIOUS overhaul to be on par with the fluidity of HoPo/Chi and even Runes. Plus it's gotta remain viable for DPS warriors too...Not sure how that's going to work.
    They could just do a Priest and have a spec specific resource. 1-3 shields or something.

  11. #3451
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    They could just do a Priest and have a spec specific resource. 1-3 shields or something.
    You mean like holy power, combo points, chi and soul shards?

  12. #3452
    Hmm, possible...but it'd be a huge departure from "tradition" (there's that word, again....) for warriors to not use Rage. I mean, it's kinda an MMO/RPG pillar that the warrior/barb class has some sort of rage/fury/anger thing as a resource. Could see it as a secondary one, though, which might be more what you were getting at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #3453
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    You mean like holy power, combo points, chi and soul shards?
    Except those aren't exclusive to one spec of a class, as Shadow Orbs are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Hmm, possible...but it'd be a huge departure from "tradition" (there's that word, again....) for warriors to not use Rage. I mean, it's kinda an MMO/RPG pillar that the warrior/barb class has some sort of rage/fury/anger thing as a resource. Could see it as a secondary one, though, which might be more what you were getting at.
    Yeah ofc, no way you could take the rage away from Warriors, even if you make it an almost meaningless bar you still have to keep it there.

  14. #3454
    Quote Originally Posted by kittycovox View Post
    Guessing its the bolded part thats crawling in me. traditional, lorewise. logic. if you consider what a tank is then you'd prefer to avoid damage as much as possible.
    That's the part that got me. Wanting to go back to "tank" stats because people are unwilling to accept that the ENTIRE tanking design has changed seems like the exact opposite of logical. It seems like pushing your feet into the ground and saying "NO! NO! Not gonna change!" The logical thing to understand is that the "traditional" tank stats haven't meant much in quite a while and the scope of tanking has vastly changed as time has gone on, the only thing that's really the same is you get hit by the boss instead of the raid. The way you get hit, the tools you have to deal with it, the choices you have to make, etc etc have all changed. The logical thing to do would be to recognize that it's an entirely new direction and being stubborn about it just for the sake of being stubborn is extremely illogical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    Except those aren't exclusive to one spec of a class, as Shadow Orbs are.
    Soul Shards are, but I get what you're saying.

  15. #3455
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Soul Shards are, but I get what you're saying.
    Technically, but they're a different flavor of the same resource

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  16. #3456
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Technically, but they're a different flavor of the same resource
    Warlock had been my main for a long time, that's not even close to true. You pick up a warlock and play the 3 different specs and it feels like you're playing 3 different classes, especially if you played lock pre-MoP and in Cata when you had Soul Shards for all classes.

  17. #3457
    Deleted
    Haste converts to extra dodge + dodge no longer exist on its own. problem solved.

  18. #3458
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    Haste converts to extra dodge + dodge no longer exist on its own. problem solved.
    Why even make it convert to dodge? What purpose does that serve other than to say "dodge is still in the game, kinda, but not really"

  19. #3459
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacebot View Post
    Haste converts to extra dodge + dodge no longer exist on its own. problem solved.
    What "problem" is this solving or attempting to remedy? Why does one stat need to affect another? Can't the stat just stand on its own merit?

    I mean, I guess that's the real crux. Haste, Mastery, Exp, Hit, even Crit. These all stand on their own, and have value. They are exciting to see, use, feel, and manipulate, and give an immediate and tangible result.

    Dodge and Parry are being propped up like Weekend at Bernie's, slapping band-aids and quick fixes on something that's clearly dying is just an exercise in uselessness. They are not interactive, they are not tangible, and they are not interesting. They have no skill involved, no talent or input required. Continuing to leave them in the game is just prolonging the cancer.

    If anything, I can see the idea of "innate avoidance from primary stat" that we have now, with AGI -> Dodge and STR -> Parry for those respective armor types. This, while not serving any real role, is enough of a nod to "tradition" as well as enough "fun RNG" that Blizz seems to think the game enjoys and needs. Anything beyond that is just waste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #3460
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Soul Shards are, but I get what you're saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Technically, but they're a different flavor of the same resource
    The point is that Priests are the only ones that suddenly gain a secondary resource for one single spec, so its not as if Prot Warriors gaining Balls of Steel™ or something would be totally new and unheard of in the development cycle.

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