[Spoilers] Why is the horde killing the best warchief they have ever had?

[Xiphan]

Yeah, why should the majority of Horde care about being subjugated and thrown aside as second class citizens when it could all pay off with the destruction of the Alliance? I'm sure we'd all be high-fiving and slapping Garrosh on the back for a job well done (unless you're not playing an orc, in which case you're not allowed anywhere near the mighty Warchief, weakling) when Azshara rises from Nazjatar to dominate the surface world, the Nightmare fully corrupts the dream before seeping into Azeroth, Norzormu and the Bronze flight gets corrupted and the Burning Legion attacks. It's not like Azeroth needs the Alliance or anything.

[zealo]

Best warchief the horde ever had or the best warchief the orcs ever had? Go think about that for a while.

[nVIDIA]

http://ptr.wowhead.com/npc=71865#comments

[Zulkhan]

Garrosh's campaign is failed; even Theramore's destruction resulted in an Alliance boot up his ass and the destruction of his fleet in Tides of War.

Sorry to dissapoint your hilarious favoritism, but at the end of Tides of War was the Alliance fleet to be nearly wiped out, saved from complete annihilation by Jaina. Garrosh just lose four ships, the rest of his fleet was busy to hold the blockade all over Kalimdor. Varian himself states that he has to be very careful in the incoming war, because while he lost a very big chunck of his fleet (because of the kraken), Garrosh still had substantially all his fleet intact.

Open your eyes and watch things for what they are: without the Horde rebelling, foolishly deciding to be the expandable pawns of war that Garrosh wanted, combined with all the crazy powers and weapons he gathered, the Alliance would have been doomed. This is what all hints and suggestions make us clearly see, it's all about you deciding to see things for what they are or just stick with your blind reasoning and retarded arguments like "it's all about devs be morons, lazy and horde fanbois !11!1!!1".

Blizzard just released a new short story, revolving around an orc and a cloud serpent. Now, this orc says all that needs to be said about Garrosh;

"Koak looked to the sky, remembering the Alliance gunship that had shot him down and the search party that never came. "Hellscream abandoned me on this island," he answered. "I will not do the same to my serpent."

"You seem to dislike this Hellscream fellow," Anli observed.

Koak thought at length about how to respond. "The Horde is his army," he said at last, "but we are not his people." It was treason to say so, but only Anli was there to hear him. "Garrosh demands loyalty, but to him that just means dying at his command. He doesn't know what loyalty is. Thrall inspired loyalty. What Garrosh wants is obedience.""

The Order of the Cloud Serpent had taught Koak a valuable lesson. True loyalty can never be enforced; it can only be earned. He had raised and nurtured his serpent, cared for and confided in it, and in return it had saved his life. The Horde had done the same for him: they had taken him in and given him a family when he was orphaned and alone, and now Koak would stand beside them against Hellscream and the Dragonmaw alike.
Doing so would forever mark Koak as an outcast from his clan. But the Horde was born of outcasts and rebels, homeless refugees with no one to depend on but each other. Together, they had built a home for themselves: Orgrimmar.
Together, they would take it back.
"For the Horde!" Koak exclaimed. He remembered now the meaning of those words. To fight for the Horde was to fight for one's brothers and sisters, to fold the strength of one into the strength of many and create a bond that could never be broken.
That was the true strength of the Horde—the strength of steel."

And this is why Garrosh needs to be removed. This is why Garrosh isn't the "BESTEST WARCHEEEF EVAH!". Even a sour, grizzled, Dragonmaw veteran can see this logic.

So much this. This short-story was very needed to make clear some few things that still weren't so clear for someone.

[zenyatta]

We aren't killing him for the cheap shots he's landed against the Alliance, we're killing him for atrocities he's committed on Pandaria.

[DrMcNinja]

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely

-Lord Acton

[josykay]

Garrosh is not the best warchief the horde ever had. Doomhammer was charismatic, diplomatic and was a great tactican. He forged alliances to achieve his goals... Thrall was a very calm, spiritual warchief, the first warchief, who prefered diplomatic solutions before battle. He earned the trust of the other orc clans, the dark spears and tauren. In addition he founded a bright future in durotar for his people, he found a place for them to live. However he lacked of strenght. But his lack of strength was compensated by his generals, especially by Varok Saurfang, the propably most successfull general of the last 30 years of the entire Warcraft Lore. In fact the only battle he lost was the ultimate defeat of Orgrims Horde near the Blackrock Spire.

Let's have a look at Garrosh:
He achieved nothing. The horde victories in Northrend were not his victories. Saurfang again lead the successfull battles, while Garrosh was crushing model ships in Warsong hold, insulting Varian Wrynn several times and ordered the broken front massacre. During the cataclysm he didn't rchieve anything. The only battle he commanded was that Twilight Highland disaster, where he orderd the fleets escort, to attack an Alliance convoy. After the escort attacked that convoy, Garroshs fleet was attacked and destroyed by twilight dragons, including the warchiefs ship.
When the horde managed, to take that Dragonmaw harbor, Garrosh was still believed to be dead.
So I am wondering: What did he do instead of taking the pirce for the work of somebody else? Right. He did nothing... He only brought a civil war to the horde, by screwing all other races over.

[Deleted]

The Horde is turning on Garrosh because Blizzard listens to a vocal part of their fanbase that wants some lame Troll to rule. It's fanservice that's what it is. I'm sad to see Garrosh go, he made the Horde cool again. But I guess the Horde can't be anything but pacifists.

For the first time the Horde is actually doing what it is supposed to do, secure their lands by removing the worst threat. There is nothing wrong about it, we've seen countless wars in the real world as well.

[Deleted]

The Horde is turning on Garrosh because Blizzard listens to a vocal part of their fanbase that wants some lame Troll to rule. It's fanservice that's what it is. I'm sad to see Garrosh go, he made the Horde cool again. But I guess the Horde can't be anything but pacifists.

For the first time the Horde is actually doing what it is supposed to do, secure their lands by removing the worst threat. There is nothing wrong about it, we've seen countless wars in the real world as well.

No thanks, I don't want a chain on my neck while the world around me is burned down by the Burning Legion.

Garrosh's Horde is only an Orc Horde. He considers the other races inferior. He demands the other Horde races their loyalty, but he doesn't show his own. Garrosh is only loyal to Garrosh. Someone like that being in charge of a whole faction needs to be removed.

[Miatog]

Firstly, to the OP, no the Horde wasn't made to wipe out the Alliance. The Horde was first made by orcs for the sake of mindless conquering while under the influence of demons. When Thrall brought the orcs back to their Shamanistic ways, the Horde was just a group of orcs, later trolls, then tauren, etc, who were banding together to survive, nothing more.

I will admit that I had high hopes for Garrosh. His biggest issue at first was that he honestly needed to grow up more. I know he's older than Thrall, but he spent most of his life feeling ashamed of his blood and his father. Once Thrall showed him what Grom was at the end, Garrosh started acting like a proper orc, only he acted like a very young orc. Wraith he proved that he's a great general and can easily motivate his people. He had the makings of a leader. A far better war time leader than Thrall was.

Cata for me was a swing of like and dislike. Both factions got played by the Twilight Hammer into full out war. Garrosh was in the middle of a war and he acted properly for a war. He took land with resources that both the war and his people needed. He did though, have his lines. He executed the orc who bombed the druids. Not only did he bomb people who weren't involved in the war, he killed children. This was too much for him. Other such scenes kept him in my good graces.

Then came the moment that caused even many of his supporters to turn on him, the bombing of Theramore. I though, only take one issue with the bombing. Yes, Jaina was always one to try for peace, but she was still Alliance and Theramore was just a short ways from the capital of the Horde. Garrosh took tactics to bring in as many soldiers as he could, faking a siege that would require the city to be fortified more, cutting off exits, then dropping the bomb. All of this done because the Horde and Alliance were at war. I have no problems with this. Where he lost my favor in this, was how the bomb was made. While we, the heroes, the players, were busy killing Deathwing, he snuck in behind us and stole the Eye of Eternity. While saving the world and working with a third neutral party, Garrosh came and stole something we had used to kill the Destroyer. This was the start of a quick drop.

Garrosh then sent people to Pandaria, he did this in response to the Alliance sending people there. Pandaria may not have been part of the war before, but was now for two reasons. First Anduin crashed there, causing the Alliance to send people to look for him and in turn the Horde people after the Alliance. Secondly, Pandaria was the only land left with plentiful resources, something that both the Horde and Alliance desperately needs thanks to the Cataclysm. The Alliance comes and looks for their lost prince, the Horde comes and sees Alliance with a base so they set up their foot hold as well.

Then comes the worst of it. This was a trend started in cata, where he banished the Trolls to the Valley of Wisdom then stuck the goblins near them. But recently, it's come out in force. In Garrosh's eyes, the Horde is orcs. The rest are there just to push orcs up higher and to be used. This mentality has spread to far too many orcs, I attribute it to how easily Garrosh can rally people. As Vol'jin puts it "The Horde is family. And Garrosh don't get that cause he ain't never had a family."

Had Garrosh remained a general longer, had he been given more of a chance to see how Thrall rules, I think he could have learned and been the a better Warchief than Thrall. But circumstances forced him to be Warchief too soon, then coming to Pandaria got him corrupted by the Sha of Pride which only made things worse. Another time, another place, Garrosh would have been great. But now, he must be taken off the throne. If we just beat him sane as we've done with so many others in the past, it won't be enough. The orcs who have been listening to him would hold out hope he could rise again. So he must die, for the good of the Horde.

[InDecisive]

(stuff)

Inc Trassk.

Just a little bit too late there I'm afraid.

[Deleted]

Snip

I agree on many things except on the fact that Garrosh got corrupted by the Sha. While blizz already said that Garrosh didn't got corrupted, the reason I have for myself is that Garrosh himself is an embodiment of pure pride and ego so I doubt the Sha had to do anything.

The moment the brown mongrel saw his father's "redemption" he filled himself with pride out of thin air. Maybe that's the reason for him not getting mind-controlled by the Sha, because his own pride overwhelms the Sha itself, and that's something.

And that much pride for his race and his heritage has proven to be too hazardous for the rest of Azeroth's people. Hence why he needs to be utterly removed.

[Pascal]

Garrosh is a douche to non-orcs. He really only ever talks about the orcish horde... orcs this orcs that... he has no interest in the other races of the horde. He's also trying to attain wildly strong powers through more or less nefarious means. Maybe orcs would feel like he's the best warchief ever, but to everyone else, him gaining massive power and conquering the world is kinda scary. What's he gonna do the rest of us when he doesn't have the Alliance as an enemy to worry about anymore? Maybe some "ethnic cleansing" of the rest of the non-orc races?

[Ciddy]

Thrall was never a "softie" towards the alliance. He just fought when necessary, as opposed to the "RAWR KILL ALL ALLIANCE AND BURN THEIR HOMES AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD RAWR" thing Garrosh has been doing. Thrall's goal was to completely free the orcs from their demonic taint (and everything else Gul'dan stood for) and restore their noble heritage, not to conquer the world and eradicate the alliance. That was the OLD horde's goal, and Thrall wanted to move away from that.

[dope_danny]

"It was my understanding that the horde was created to wipe out the Alliance"

Then you didn't understand the Horde. Old horde maybe, not the modern one.

[Grocalis]

"Then you didn't understand the Horde. Old horde maybe, not the modern one. "

Even the Old Horde was not created for that purpose. The Horde predates the opening of the Dark Portal, and was forged by Gul'dan as a way to better control all the orcish (and later even ogre) clans during the war with the Draenei. Blackhand was named the first Warchief, and was merely a puppet of Gul'dan.

If anything, the Old Horde embodied subjugation rather then strength. Orgrim Doomhammer attempted to change that when he outed the Shadow Council, as he was more honorable then most orcs at the time, but he had gained his own lust for power that prevented him from taking the next step. This was one of the reasons he gave the title of Warchief to Thrall, because he knew Thrall would have the strength to transform the Horde into a brotherhood rather then a puppet faction.

P.S. Garrosh is the WORST Warchief we ever had. We lost more wars under him then we ever did under Thrall.

[Ectro81]

#1) Because he's evil.
#2) Sylvanas is Better.
#3) Abasikkampfire is better.
...
#9,176) Me'dan is better.

#4-#9,175 are all people who are better. pick one.

Let the medan rage commence.

[Trassk]

Thrall was never a "softie" towards the alliance. He just fought when necessary, as opposed to the "RAWR KILL ALL ALLIANCE AND BURN THEIR HOMES AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD RAWR" thing Garrosh has been doing. Thrall's goal was to completely free the orcs from their demonic taint (and everything else Gul'dan stood for) and restore their noble heritage, not to conquer the world and eradicate the alliance. That was the OLD horde's goal, and Thrall wanted to move away from that.

for some morons though thats not good enough, and want a reason to be assholes to one another. The reason they bleet 'peace-craft-green-jesus' so much is because they don't care about whats best for the horde or alliance, they just want to be at each others throats and bitch at the developers for not giving them a victory.

[Flaks]

The Horde was founded to SURVIVE, not conquest. That shit probably wouldn't have flown that close to the end of the Second War.

The Horde couldn't survive in a barren wasteland with Alliance on their shores CONSTANTLY with an Alliance "civilian" city less than a zone away sending military troops into Horde areas.

The new Horde may have been started by Thrall, but it was well on it's way of ending with him as well.

[Krolikn]

The Horde was founded to SURVIVE, not conquest. That shit probably wouldn't have flown that close to the end of the Second War.

Thralls Horde maybe, but that was never the real Horde.