Magic: the Gathering: the Thread

[Eroginous]

This may sound quite mean, but if you think they are horribly designed now than this would be a new level of horrible. It has been proven time and time again that when WoTC makes spells cost nothing is when things get out of control, from the "untap x lands" spells during Urza's to Phyrexian mana in New Phyrexia, it has always been a problem. Just look at Mental Misstep and how it almost broke Legacy.

I didn't say 'free.' I said alternate casting costs. There are plenty of cards out there that have an alternate/additional cost to play that aren't broken. Designed well enough, you could make one cost just about anything besides mana and have it work well within a deck and NOT be broken. Planeswalkers should be a trade off to cast, but also be a game finisher if they hit play.

As the player YOU are a planeswalker. Don't you think that enlisting the aid of another planeswalker should be game changing?

The reason that all walkers are played for their first two abilities is because there is no guarantee that you will even reach their ultimate, either because you used their minus abilities too much or because your opponent simply just crushed it underneath their creature's foot

And you don't consider that poor design? Let's say I built a control oriented deck and I put in late game creature with multiple abilities. The entire purpose of having that creature is to 'finish' the game, whether it's the turn it comes into play or the following turns. If that creature all of a sudden wasn't able to finish the game because 'it couldn't use it's game finishing ability' then I would replace it with a creature that can.

That's the main reason why most big creatures never see competitive play anyway. Which is why I said planeswalkers suffered from 'big creature' syndrome (being mostly useless).

[Dontrike]

I didn't say 'free.' I said alternate casting costs. There are plenty of cards out there that have an alternate/additional cost to play that aren't broken. Designed well enough, you could make one cost just about anything besides mana and have it work well within a deck and NOT be broken. Planeswalkers should be a trade off to cast, but also be a game finisher if they hit play.

As the player YOU are a planeswalker. Don't you think that enlisting the aid of another planeswalker should be game changing?

It is impossible to not make sure that nothing is "not broken" that would also run the risk of being unplayable. Even if it would be a different cost it would still end up being free and we have seen that make some cards incredibly powerful, like Force of Will it has an alternate casting cost that makes it one of the more, if not the most, powerful counters in the game. By allowing you to cast it without needing mana it is what made it powerful. If your alternate costs are too high it makes the card unplayable, which is one of your gripes, and if it is too low it could lead to a card becoming overpowered.

You gave the example of a (or all) black walker to pay X life for it, which is incredibly strong. If the walkers had P/T as you suggested you could pay that X life and have a creature out with zero mana and start to swing away on turn 2, then when you had the mana for the abilities you would start controlling the board. We learned from Necropotence, shock lands, and Phyrexian mana, that life is an easy thing to pay to get an effect that will put you ahead in the smallest way.

Doesn't that example sound overpowered to you?

Why do Planeswalkers need to be a trade off?

Planeswalkers are not game changing?

Garruk, Primal Hunter doesn't stop making tokens, which makes it harder to hit him and you, the same being true for just about every Garruk.
Gideon 1 equals a wall that you may not be able to get past and an attacker you can barely stop.
LotV means losing cards every turn, potentially.
Jace 2 meant you needed a creature with an immediate board impact, could attack immediately, or run the risk of getting Time Walked (by having your whole turn waste and it meaning nothing).
Koth means your opponent has to worry about lands attacking or you having even more mana.
Venser means more EtB effects, which your opponent needs to overcome, plus a way for your creatures to get through. Not to mention how he could reset counters on cards.
Karn will wreck the board and the opposing player's hand. If he ever ultimates he will end the game, start a new one, and then you can end the next one that starts with the extra mana you have available or the creatures you have at the start.

Also, they sure are finishers. The reasons above show how some of them can easily finish the game just by using the same ability constantly or even another ability once in the case of some of them. If any get to their ultimate it will pretty much end the game right there or soon after.

And you don't consider that poor design? Let's say I built a control oriented deck and I put in late game creature with multiple abilities. The entire purpose of having that creature is to 'finish' the game, whether it's the turn it comes into play or the following turns. If that creature all of a sudden wasn't able to finish the game because 'it couldn't use it's game finishing ability' then I would replace it with a creature that can.

That's the main reason why most big creatures never see competitive play anyway. Which is why I said planeswalkers suffered from 'big creature' syndrome (being mostly useless).

No I don't find it bad design, because you need to build up to that ability, just like you need to build your mana up to play big creatures and spells. If you could use their best ability right off of the bat it would not mean good things, especially if you could cast them for no mana. Loyalty could easily be explained by the walker building up mana to use the effect you want/need. The cost for each ability could easily be the mana it took for them to use it and any + ability could be a task so simple they can build up mana while using it at the same time.

Is Lux Cannon bad design? You need to build it up to use it. The flavor for it makes perfect sense.
Are giant creatures that do nothing immediately a bad design? They will probably die before you swing in with it and you have to build up to use them to.
Is Sarkhan the Mad good design? He can use all of his abilities, and doesn't need to build up, right out of the gate. What about Gideon 1? He can do the same.
Are big spells like Sphinx's Revelation a bad design? To make it worth it you need to build up your mana and is only really good at 3+ for X. You may not even get enough mana to do that if an aggro deck beats you by turn 4. Is it bad design that you didn't get a chance to use it?

With walkers you will always get at least one ability off before they are dealt with, sometimes that is all you need. I know I lost plenty of games from a top decked Jace 2, followed by a Brainstorm effect, and them getting one of the cards they needed, like a board wipe or their own big creature after the board has become emptied.

Walkers may not be perfect, but they could be far worse for the game.

- - - Updated - - -

But that is not what you said. You said that "unlike jace, liliana is not seen in every deck that has black".

Thing is, liliana is seen in a higher percentage of black decks then jace is seen in a percentage of blue decks.

ANT, Sneakshow, omnitell, hive mind, UR delver, merfolks, all XYZ delver variants, punishing RUG, etc and this is without going into decks which are barely seen, while conversely, liliana, while being present in less winning decks, is present in black decks in a higher percentage, being absent mostly on XBlade, ANT, TES and shardless bug.

Remember that XBlade is extremely overrepresented now, being the deck that has the most wins AND the most top 16s in recent times...

I'm not saying liliana is as strong as jace. I'm saying that she is seen in more decks with black than jace is seen in decks with blue, because while jace is stronger, it doesn't fit in many deck types.

Oh, and this is just about legacy!

You are right, I did say that very line. You do definitely have a point with her showing up in more decks that is for sure. I was probably putting some of my experiences with standard, which at the time Jace showed up in everything that was blue, in there at the same time and then forgot about it

[AlderaiMischi]

I must say that I'm really enjoying flushing out my green/black scavenge deck.....I think it is a wonderful mechanic....hate instant kill cards on a loaded counter creature....2x corpsejacks load it quick.....primordial hydra doubles that effort....but you got to have that mana and dead ready for a quick buildup incase of a kill card

[Dontrike]

I must say that I'm really enjoying flushing out my green/black scavenge deck.....I think it is a wonderful mechanic....hate instant kill cards on a loaded counter creature....2x corpsejacks load it quick.....primordial hydra doubles that effort....but you got to have that mana and dead ready for a quick buildup incase of a kill card

Golgari Charm and the reprint of Ranger's Guile (for single target spells) will help if you are having trouble with that type of stuff.

[Pendulous]

Speaking of the "you gain 1 life when a player casts x color spell" cards, I'm reminded of Kor Firewalker. Even though creatures are easier to remove, I think a better way to use that effect would be to print a set of five creatures that do it. Though Kor Firewalker is white, but gets life off red cards, I think it would work well as a five-card set.

[Dontrike]

Speaking of the "you gain 1 life when a player casts x color spell" cards, I'm reminded of Kor Firewalker. Even though creatures are easier to remove, I think a better way to use that effect would be to print a set of five creatures that do it. Though Kor Firewalker is white, but gets life off red cards, I think it would work well as a five-card set.

Them just making one card where you choose the color you want to gain life from would be miles better. No reason to take up 5 uncommon slots for that effect.

[Plot]

My friends have convinced me to try this game, and I am nearly done building my Angel-Token deck. And I have begun to construct my Green/Red aggro deck. So far I have really enjoyed playing this game. Met some really cool people in the process who showed me a thing or two.

[jvbastel]

Have just finished building my Omnitell deck (using the list Lejay built, the version with [Release the ants] as kill). God damn that deck is super powerful. 13 cantrips, monoblue mana base so wasteland proof, instant kill, so no durdling around with creatures.



I can see why a lot of people want [show and tell] banned in legacy though. It's a powerful card, completely unfair, and the decks are easier to play than a lot of other legacy decks. I'm not on the ban train yet, because it's not dominating legacy in any way, but it's certainly an option if it escalates.

I'm also exploring U/B tezzeret. Turn 2 Jace/tezzeret is rather fun, coupled with chalice of the void being very good against a lot of decks.

[Dontrike]

Elspeth is in Theros and a possible crazy super great art from Theros on a mat.

Edit: The art for the mat is not from Theros, but it still looks awesome anyways.





- - - Updated - - -

Have just finished building my Omnitell deck (using the list Lejay built, the version with [Release the ants] as kill). God damn that deck is super powerful. 13 cantrips, monoblue mana base so wasteland proof, instant kill, so no durdling around with creatures.



I can see why a lot of people want [show and tell] banned in legacy though. It's a powerful card, completely unfair, and the decks are easier to play than a lot of other legacy decks. I'm not on the ban train yet, because it's not dominating legacy in any way, but it's certainly an option if it escalates.

I'm also exploring U/B tezzeret. Turn 2 Jace/tezzeret is rather fun, coupled with chalice of the void being very good against a lot of decks.

Show and Tell has gotten pretty good, but it is one of those cards that get better every time a new card comes out is just another possibility to abuse an effect like that and ever since the 3 big Eldrazi and then Griselbrand things have probably gotten a little out of hand for the card, but it probably won't get banned until it starts to overtake Legacy.

The deck does look fun though.

[Dontrike]

How in the hell is Archangel of Thune $35+ and Kalonian Hydra $30+? In fact M14 has a lot of odd prices right now, but I suppose that is any preorder season for you, but those two creatures especially confuse the crap out of me.

[Arialla]

I have no idea, but I got a fair bit for the Garruk I got at the prerelease too :P

- - - Updated - - -

To share how ridiculous the Hydra can be in sealed at least. 3rd Turn Advocate of the beast, 4th turn 4/4 2GG guy, 5 turn Hydra. I didn't have removal and I just scooped :P

[Dontrike]

Hydra is bound to do that in sealed, but I think the expectations for these are a little much. I have no problem with Chandra and Garruk being pricey, as preorder prices for planeswalkers usually are higher than they end up being, but I am unsure as to why people are pinning the hopes on what are, basically, french vanilla creatures. Sure, the hydra can win the game in about two swings and if the angel hits and you have a decent board presence it might as well be over, but that is quite a few ifs for a creature to be good.

[Dontrike]

If only I could get my hands on like 3 of these from Comic Con. Chandra's looks the best out of these.

[blksnk]

Savage Summoning is similar to the Torment cycle, it is basically the green one, Insist, but Savage Summoning is what I would call slightly worse seeing that Savage Summoning is a horrible top deck and doesn't work with no creatures in hand while Insist could easily be used as a cycle effect, basically.

I play a Legacy Junk deck that has found a happy home for Savage Summoning... I can leave lands untapped going into opponent's turn, leaving open the threat of Abrupt Decay or Swords to Plowshares, then cast either a +1/+1 Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic at the end of their turn just in time to draw 2 or equip my creature with a freshly fetched Sword of Fire and Ice or Umezawa's Jitte. For me, the flash component of Savage Summoning is more important than the draw a card component of Insist, since the creature I cast with it tends to make up for the card disadvantage created by playing two cards to get a creature onto the board.

[Dontrike]

I play a Legacy Junk deck that has found a happy home for Savage Summoning... I can leave lands untapped going into opponent's turn, leaving open the threat of Abrupt Decay or Swords to Plowshares, then cast either a +1/+1 Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic at the end of their turn just in time to draw 2 or equip my creature with a freshly fetched Sword of Fire and Ice or Umezawa's Jitte. For me, the flash component of Savage Summoning is more important than the draw a card component of Insist, since the creature I cast with it tends to make up for the card disadvantage created by playing two cards to get a creature onto the board.

Both have their pros and cons, I would go with the less chance of a dead draw personally, but I don't have a deck that uses either card so I suppose I may not find out any time soon.

- - - Updated - - -

Comic Con spoilers galore.

Theros
* Greek mythology.
* Theros will be an enchantment block that plays off building blocks in M14.
* Not just "enchantment matters". Game play needs to part of the set. Found a way to take enchantments and bring gods to life.
* Another theme of Theros will be Heroes -- Magic's take on classic mythological tropes.
* What is the mood and tone of Greek myth? Adventure, achievement, accomplishment. Hero's journey.
* Monsters are another theme. Heroes need something to fight. Awesome monsters
* If you like Minotaurs this set is for you.
* Polukranos, Worldeater (Mythic Hydra)
* five gods which adhere to the color wheel: Helliod (white), Erebos (black or blue), Nylea is the god of the hunt (green).
* Three new mechanics. One for the Heroes, Monsters, and Gods. Five total mechanics in Theros. Including something people have been asking for
* Three Planeswalkers; one of which is Elspeth with two new ones.
* Also Gorgons, Hydras
* There will be a handful of gold cards but it is NOT a gold set.
* There is a Future shifted card in Theros.
* Theros is a large set, Born of the Gods is small, Journey into Nyx is small. Classic draft format.
* Story: Elspeth doesn't want to be a hero. Elspeth does not believe she will be called on to be a leader in a world of gods. Gods can take multiple forms and walk among mortals.
* Gods live in Nyx.
* Three major walled cities. Meletis, Akris, Setessa.
* Theros is very dangerous land outside of the cities. Elspeth will fight a Hydra. And attracts attention of Heliod.
* Prerelease activities: a Hero's Pack for Theros that will continue through whole block.
* Bringing back Prerelease packs.

THEROS
This is one of the 5 gods in Theros, with a new card frame.




FTV 20 spoilers







Heroes vs. Monsters



Commander 2

* New Commander product due out ... November 1st, 2013. Five new decks. 15 new cards in each deck. 51 new cards.
* Three color shard decks for this product

[Dontrike]

Been playing a lot of Commander lately and only lost 3 games in the last two months. I do quite enjoy Tariel as a commander. I think my favorite win has been getting Avacyn and Witchbane Orb out at the same time.

[KaylinBDF]

So, I had a nice Necropotence deck back in the day. I really love control decks and played mono-blue almost exclusively in legacy format vs kids at school from 2nd-5th grade. I played Fallen Empires/Revised -- Urza's Saga/5th Edition and I have some rare cards, in fact many rare cards. Note the cost of some of these cards or their antiquity makes this deck look absurd. I already own them. Cost is probably not an issue as I have the card. Obviously I traded with my friends who started earlier for plenty of cards from unlimited, antiquities, legends, chronicles, the dark, etc.

Vintage or as I knew it type 1 rules are simple, no more than 4 cards in a deck, it's ideal to have your deck at 60 cards because it increases the likelihood of drawing that great card versus those cards that are just going to keep you from losing. Control is NOT a combo deck, it counters combo decks. I am willing to spend some money on it but in all likelihood if you suggest an ancient or out of print card even one worth multiple hundreds of dollars I have it, and if it's new my friends do and I can trade for it.

This is my deck as it stands, I want to make it better, I haven't played in nearly 15 years. My friends play casual though usually vintage due to me trading them an obscure card or two for a new card I want. I wish my deck to be mono-black as my goal is to get more friends to play with and play prismatic 5 player in addition to multiplayer. I have many years of playing blue control but no so much with playing black.

The Type 1 (Vintage) rules can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ces/sfrvintage


EXPLANTIONS HAVE BEEN SIMPLIFIED FOR EASIER COMPREHENSION, PLAYERS BEGIN WITH 20 HEALTH

Artifact (6) stays in play until placed in the discard pile
1 Elixir of Immortality (basically place into your discard pile to gain 5 health, shuffle your discard pile into your deck)
1 Ivory Tower (every one of your turnsgain 1 health for each card in your hand in excess of 4)
2 Jester's Cap (remove 3 cards in your opponent's deck from the game entirely)
2 Library of Leng (you have no maximum hand size, if you must discard a card you may discard it to the top of your deck instead of your discard pile)

Creature (6) stays in play until placed in the discard pile
4 Crypt Ghast (offensive creature, 2 attack 2 health, you may pay 1 black resource to deal 1 damage to each opponent and gain 1 life per damage dealt every time you cast play a non-land card, in addition your lands produce 1 more black resource when drawn for resources)
2 Nirkana Revenant (4 attack 4 health, your lands produce 1 more black resource when drawn for resources)

Enchantment (1) stays in play until placed in the discard pile
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain (permanent enchantment spell, at any time you may pay 1 health to draw a card, you do not draw your initial card every turn)

Instant (12) This effect only happens once
4 Dark Ritual (pay 1 black resource to add 3 black to your resources)
4 Ultimate Price (for 2 black resources destroy a creature not costing more than one color of resources)
1 Vampiric Tutor (1 black resource, look through your deck and pick any card, shuffle and place it on top, you lose 2 health)
3 Withering Boon (prevent any creature spell from being cast. You lose 3 health)

Sorcery (11) This effect only happens once
4 Consume Spirit (costs any amount of black mana +2, deals that much damage to a creature or to another player, you gain that much health)
1 Demonic Tutor (search through your deck and put a card directly into your hand, shuffle your deck)
2 Drain Life (costs any amount of black mana +2, deals that much damage to a creature or to another player, you gain that much health but not more than the health of the creature or player you targeted)
1 Dregs of Sorrow (expensive, 5 + any number of resources. Destroy that number of creatures and draw that many cards)
1 Imperial Seal (1 black resource, look through your deck and pick any card, shuffle and place it on top, you lose 2 health)
2 Sickening Dreams (discard any number of cards, deal that much damage to every creature and each player loses that much health)

Land (24) stays in play until placed in the discard pile
24 Swamp (add 1 black resource to your resource pool, stays in play)


Note: I am thinking of including a strip mine. have ruled out Mox Jet and Time Vault as these cards do not fit my current construction of mana acceleration. The creature destruction is to counter those new 1 creature buff decks and infect decks where I may run into issues. This isn't a quick deck, as control decks are wont to be, but it should do approximately well as blue. My win condition is either a HUGE drain life or such clone, or standard creature attack pending creature removal (unlikely with the feldon's cane 2.0 and cheap tutoring). I am not including bubbling muck as on turn 1-2 it's worthless and by turn 3 I can easily have a creature that does it better. No demonic consultation. Since I have no card ordering I cannot risk losing cards I need for mass draw since they are restricted in Type 1.

I would like this deck to be tournament worthy, though I do not play in tournaments and never will, but my goal is to make it good enough to do so. Suggestions for improvements, cards I do not know of being out of the loop. I do not wish to deviate from playing black control as control is my favorite and I've really played blue control to its limit. Packing my deck with tutoring, card draw, and force of will is never as fun as people make it out to be.

[Dontrike]

I couldn't quite help you there as Vintage definitely isn't my format.

[Snorkle]

I need to ask how competitive your deck wants to be.

[KaylinBDF]

I need to ask how competitive your deck wants to be.

interestingly so, I'd like to play against good decks, but not to the point where I'm willing to break the mono-color/format restrictions/overall "theme" i.e. black control. If it's for some expensive/retro card you're thinking of again I probably have it, perhaps multiples.

I created this version dumping the boons and 2 drain life for 3 hymn to tourach and 2 big discard spells http://www.mtgvault.com/kaylin/decks...ecro-help-pls/

-edit-
I realize the answer is just go back to playing blue and ruining people's day with force of will. I don't *want* to do that. It's not fun for me anymore. I realize this will not be nearly as good, but hopefully a little faster and still have a similar if not the same overall style.

-edit2- I know I can do it monoblack but I don't want to do another survival/living death clone, this was funny in the tempest block, it's hilarious in EDH, but it's not how I want to play normally.

-edit3-
Yes. feel free to suggest a complete overhaul, feel free to suggest I throw in more tutoring, an actual necropotence (restricted, I know) or even dump 20+ cards for 20 you suggest. I'm fine and will not be offended. It's been 15 years since I've done this.

-edit4-
This doesn't look too awful considering acceleration, thoughts?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=29825


-edit-
I will never play in a tournament, that doesn't mean I don't want to have fun against such type decks if that makes sense. I'd like to stick with my theme and still not get totally stomped by type 1 decks unless they're designed to completely counter this mechanic in every way possible.