Alliance and Chris Metzen

[Trassk]

I agree with your points, but an argument of the "you didn't make this product/you wouldn't be capable of making this product"-nature and appeals to empathy are a poor additions to the rational value of a counter argument one is trying to make. As an everday customer you are benefiting from untold range of industries while you are qualified only to perform in the select few you were preparing for - does this mean you CANNOT criticize/turn down the product you are not satisfied with? Obviously not.

obviously not, and critisim about a game is one thing, it helps to allow the developers to understand what makes people happy. But the demands given about this are more often then not just people whining and gripping about the same old shit, to the point that don't appreciate it when the developers try to do something, because for such people, its never good enough.

[Deleted]

obviously not, and critisim about a game is one thing, it helps to allow the developers to understand what makes people happy. But the demands given about this are more often then not just people whining and gripping about the same old shit, to the point that don't appreciate it when the developers try to do something, because for such people, its never good enough.

True enough.

I am fed up myself with all those "give Lordaeron back!" "retaliative destruction to make up for destruction of Theramore!" "considerable reparations ASAP!" "destruction marks on Orgrimmar!" "copy-paste Dalaran into old world and make it Alliance only!"-kind of ideas.

I'd rather want to see Theramore being rebuilt as the third expansion-specific hub metropolis for the both factions to sift through than to see ORG ravaged for epeen boost that will wear out in the span of a single week.

Hell, back in Cataclysm I remember having more fun with aiding Goblins with their reactor cores fashioned out of stone giant's feces than with eye-for-an-eye faction trade-offs.

[Jessicka]

True enough.

I am fed up myself with all those "give Lordaeron back!" "retaliative destruction to make up for destruction of Theramore!" "considerable reparations ASAP!" "destruction marks on Orgrimmar!" "copy-paste Dalaran into old world and make it Alliance only!"-kind of ideas.

I'd rather want to see Theramore being rebuilt as the third expansion-specific hub metropolis for the both factions to sift through than to see ORG ravaged for epeen boost that will wear out in the span of a single week.

Hell, back in Cataclysm I remember having more fun with aiding Goblins with their reactor cores fashioned out of stone giant's feces than with eye-for-an-eye faction trade-offs.

I think you're painting a very thick line through the suggestions here. Alliance have lost a major quest hub, a geographically significant enough location to warrant its own transport link from Wetlands (Ironforge) and Mage portals as well as having a significant amount of historical significance in WoW's story arc. Its about as close as a place can be to being a faction capital as you can get without being officially labeled one. I really don't think its at all unreasonable to ask that now we have Dalaran back in the lore, that it be represented in game and that it function as Theramore has done for years as the Alliance's representative Southern-Kalimdor foothold. It is something that I feel simply makes more sense to do than to ignore.

That's an awful long way from demanding Lordaeron back from the Forsaken which would have no basis in the Pandaria/Orgrimmar storyline, and no real in-game 'benefit' for anyone. It's also a long way from demanding unspecified reparations. That said, going into the next expansion it should be abundantly clear that the Horde has been substantially weakened by its infighting, and that however the Alliance want to move on, that its also clear that that weakness is there to be capitalised on and gains are there to be made, and not just ignored while the plot revolves around the Horde's rebuilding efforts.

[Deleted]

Wait a minute... Horde are doing things with Chen Stormstout? I just looked it up on wowpedia, but seriously, until now I've been asking myself why Blizzard doesn't spin the Pandaria story more around Chen... I've been kinda sad that he didn't show up in the patches after 5.0...


Brb, I have to go fist-pumping a bit...

[Deleted]

Alliance have lost a major quest hub, a geographically significant enough location to warrant its own transport link from Wetlands (Ironforge) and Mage portals as well as having a significant amount of historical significance in WoW's story arc.

Actually, it didn't lost, it's still there.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait a minute... Horde are doing things with Chen Stormstout? I just looked it up on wowpedia, but seriously, until now I've been asking myself why Blizzard doesn't spin the Pandaria story more around Chen... I've been kinda sad that he didn't show up in the patches after 5.0...

Chen has always been connected to the Horde, he helped Rexxar and Vol'jin on the Founding of Orgrimmar in the past. Also, he was in patch 5.1, helping a poisoned Vol'jin.

[Deleted]

I really don't think its at all unreasonable to ask that now we have Dalaran back in the lore, that it be represented in game and that it function as Theramore has done for years as the Alliance's representative Southern-Kalimdor foothold. It is something that I feel simply makes more sense to do than to ignore.

Only a portion of Alliance's fanbase would want to receive quality boost in the form of Dalaran being lowered into Theramore crater. I can assure you that others -myself included- would have been displeased to hear that time and resources that could have been put to greet Alliance with something fresh and memorable were instead used to...

...make a copy-paste of Dalaran [in addition to the one LEFT AT NORTHREND] and slap it onto esthetical enviroment ill-suited for such design. Besides, Dalaran that is present in-game has been purposefully designed to function for TWO separate groups of player characters- -having a second Dalaran with a 1/3 of its volume filled with hastily slapped marks of Alliance dominance over Sunreavers would only serve to fuel accusations of faction inequality content-wise.

[RyanEX]

You people really are selfish brats.

Try to, for a moment, put yourself in chris metzens shoes. I know thats a really big stretch asking you lot to try and use empathy, but for those who might just manage it, give it a go.

Here you have the guy, who gave us world of warcraft. All your bitching and moaning about this game and your reason for feeling this overblown sense of faction pride, it comes from what he made, the story he made for us to be pessimistic about, to rage about, to enjoy and hate, he made it, not you.
All you people are, and those clinging to it, and biting the hand that feeds you.

Now, try and imagine it from the creators pov. If he answered your demands, you alliance players, and did what you asked, and made world of warcraft into world of alliance-craft, I'm certain you'd be overjoyed about that and laugh about it. But then, metzen would have to answer horde players who now feel betrayed by his writing and choices. And so, he would then have to give it back to the horde, and thus making you alliance into the same whining kids yet again.

As a creator of a product that has this kind of reaction from those invested in it, metzen has to try and balance the story as much as he can. And sometimes its hard to balance it, because the weight of the story makes it feel more focused in one side then the other. Wrath was focused a lot more on the alliance, but I bet you alliance didn't think of it like that, because you were content with it being that way.

Instead of throwing the same old shit about how you want the game to be about you and your needs, how about you suggest something that would balance the story. We had that kind of focus back in WC3 in its RTS format, as the alliance and horde had there own stories happening that were separate from each other.

My suggestion would be, make the next expansion, where alliance and horde have as little to do with each other as possible, and focus on there own story.

Are you not the same Trassk that was bitching and moaning not to long ago about Blizzard destroying what the Horde was all about by putting Garrosh in chanrge? Guess things've changed now that you're getting your faction pride back.

Go you.

[Jessicka]

Only a portion of Alliance's fanbase would want to receive quality boost in the form of Dalaran being lowered into Theramore crater. I can assure you that others -myself included- would have been displeased to hear that time and resources that could have been put to greet Alliance with something fresh and memorable were instead used to...

...make a copy-paste of Dalaran [in addition to the one LEFT AT NORTHREND] and slap it onto esthetical enviroment ill-suited for such design. Besides, Dalaran that is present in-game has been purposefully designed to function for TWO separate groups of player characters- -having a second Dalaran with a 1/3 of its volume filled with hastily slapped marks of Alliance dominance over Sunreavers would only serve to fuel accusations of faction inequality content-wise.

Who said it needed to be lowered into the crater?

I certainly don't think it would fuel any arguments of faction inequality anything like as much as your suggestion as creating a cross-faction capital, especially not one built on Theramore's ruins would. The Horde are for all intents and purposes on their knees after Orgrimmar, they ought to be looking inward, not continuing on as if nothing happened on their path of conquest and discovery.

[Trassk]

Are you not the same Trassk that was bitching and moaning not to long ago about Blizzard destroying what the Horde was all about by putting Garrosh in chanrge? Guess things've changed now that you're getting your faction pride back.

Go you.

bigger picture sweetheart. takes a lot to step back from faction pride and see things happening. and developers do make mistakes, and I am someone who thinks it needs to be balanced more.
But shit like 'give the alliance lordearon back AND dalaran over durotar AND ashenvale AND southshore AND gilneas!" Its becomes so tedious with the kind of demands, and then it doesn't happen the bitching that comes from it. No I'm not happy the direction the horde went in, but at least I'm learning to appreciate things the devs do actually do, instead of thinking there against me and bitching about it.

[Deleted]

Are you not the same Trassk that was bitching and moaning not to long ago about Blizzard destroying what the Horde was all about by putting Garrosh in chanrge? Guess things've changed now that you're getting your faction pride back.

Go you.

I don't see how his post, save for poor opening analogy, would stand in direct or indirect contradiction to his stance on Horde-specific faction evolution. Trassk's argument is to root for dropping the 'compensating for supposed cyclical bias' game AND -instead- yearning for an effort to establish faction-specific content that doesn't require that other faction's hostility in order to be operational and immersive.

[Deleted]

Only a portion of Alliance's fanbase would want to receive quality boost in the form of Dalaran being lowered into Theramore crater. I can assure you that others -myself included- would have been displeased to hear that time and resources that could have been put to greet Alliance with something fresh and memorable were instead used to...

...make a copy-paste of Dalaran [in addition to the one LEFT AT NORTHREND] and slap it onto esthetical enviroment ill-suited for such design. Besides, Dalaran that is present in-game has been purposefully designed to function for TWO separate groups of player characters- -having a second Dalaran with a 1/3 of its volume filled with hastily slapped marks of Alliance dominance over Sunreavers would only serve to fuel accusations of faction inequality content-wise.

In other words, you are implying that the cries of "lazy rehash" would appear? Totally agree.

Dalaran needs to come back, rebuilt, on a meaningful purpose and not just for gimmick purpose. Reintroducing it as a main Alliance hub on the next xpac would be better than a show just for the end of this xpac.

[Deleted]

Who said it needed to be lowered into the crater?

I certainly don't think it would fuel any arguments of faction inequality anything like as much as your suggestion as creating a cross-faction capital, especially not one built on Theramore's ruins would. The Horde are for all intents and purposes on their knees after Orgrimmar, they ought to be looking inward, not continuing on as if nothing happened on their path of conquest and discovery.

Just to remind you of something:

When we had bi-factional hub cities [both built by races now affilated with Alliance], the only faction-bias whining I recall hearing was:
-BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Alliance had a cool bonus mount and we had to wait to receive one too!
-BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Blizz made Jaina stop Varian from conquering Undercity!

Please tell me how having a new bi-factional hub city in place of Theramore would ruin fun for Alliance.
When Cataclysm arrived with NO shared hub city and portal links were severed from existent ones to faction capitals, Hordies and Alliance were forced to squat 24/7 in ORG and SW respectively - the latter's generic shittiness leading to massive butthurt that found no consolation.

Am I the only one seeing behavioral pattern here?

[Trassk]

I don't see how his post, save for poor opening analogy, would stand in direct or indirect contradiction to his stance on Horde-specific faction evolution. Trassk's argument is to root for dropping the 'compensating for supposed cyclical bias' game AND -instead- yearning for an effort to establish faction-specific content that doesn't require that other faction's hostility in order to be operational and immersive.

thats exactly my point. It seems that theres this growing bubble of crap thats been there since wow began, that because of the way the game is designed, both factions have to always play off each other. In vanilla it wasn't noticed, because honestly, there wasn't any faction war then, just the odd quest over turf. And coming into tbc it was all about illidan and his stuff.

But since wrath, and since the horde and alliance began to play off each other, the bubbles just grown, and every little detail is picked at because both sides want the same thing, but its impossible to have them achieve that because when one side pushes the other side can't maintain the same space until it pushes back and takes space from them.

Having this war that everyone screamed about wanting in world of warcraft was the worst mistake they made. Ever since blizzard stepped up the story of having H vs A, its been nothing but screams of bias and faction pride being rattled. I was content in wrath just fighting the scourge or fighting the legion in TBC, we didn't need this faction war bs, and now we've had it, its left nothing but a bad taste in everyones mouth.

The sooner it moves away from this story the better.

[Jessicka]

Just to remind you of something:

When we had bi-factional hub cities [both built by races now affilated with Alliance], the only faction-bias whining I recall hearing was:
-BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Alliance had a cool bonus mount and we had to wait to receive one too!
-BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Blizz made Jaina stop Varian from conquering Undercity!

Please tell me how having a new bi-factional hub city in place of Theramore would ruin fun for Alliance.
When Cataclysm arrived with NO shared hub city and portal links were severed from existent ones to faction capitals, Hordies and Alliance were forced to squat 24/7 in ORG and SW respectively - the latter's generic shittiness leading to massive butthurt that found no consolation.

Am I the only one seeing behavioral pattern here?

Because Theramore has been an Alliance hub since classic (And long before then in lore)? But hey, since we have boots on the ground in Orgrimmar, why not make that a cross faction hub?

[Deleted]

Completely agree with you, Trassk. The faction war was the worst WoW lore development so far and I honestly believe that was the point of MoP, to end it up and to show how silly it is.

[Deleted]

The problem is that Dalaran doesnt really feel very Alliance-y because it involves Jaina only, It is a fist pumping moment but for Jaina, and I loved Dalaran, but I really was expecting something to do with other races, not just humans, I just hope they do not repeat the "A Little Patience" Fiasco of an scenario.

The problem is, they might it morally ambigious at best and caused it to be the reason why the Belfs didn't defect to the Alliance. The Alliance gained a city that will never be shown in game to be actually theirs while they lost out on a mayor race. On top of that both sides are shown as GREY and the whole thing isn't much of a victory.
If they wanted it to be a proper victory they should've portrayed it as such and they didn't, in fact they added so much ambigious stuff to give certain people enough ammunition to wank up some moral event horizon being crossed about the whole issue. It however only serves to show how detached from any kind of neutrality Blizzard is by now.

if you're having so much fun elsewhere, why are you here, discussing your old game?

Warcraft, not the MMO though was one of the first games I've ever played. I've been with the series since forever. I used to love both factions, altough the Horde more way back. That's why the sodomization of one faction, the blatant favoritism and disregard for one of the two factions makes me feel disgusted to no end. It doesn't only hurt the Alliance though, it hurts both factions.
It makes for a very poor story in general that has anyone who's not extremly biased face palming. It cheapens the Horde's victories, removes any kind of struggle or threat from the whole war and in general leaves the Horde as a faction lead by some kind of magical Mary Sues who can just shake deus ex machinas out of their sleeves when needed fighting some completly idiotic and ridiculed humano centric Alliance of whom half doesn't know which way to hold a sword.

Here you have the guy, who gave us world of warcraft. All your bitching and moaning about this game and your reason for feeling this overblown sense of faction pride, it comes from what he made, the story he made for us to be pessimistic about, to rage about, to enjoy and hate, he made it, not you.
All you people are, and those clinging to it, and biting the hand that feeds you.

And here we have a typical Trassk, some incomprehensible ranting and white knighting of some overpaid bloke who's a crappy writer. The only thing Chris Metzen did is to destroy the Warcraft lore most people knew and liked long before WoW came along. He inserted himself into the story and is constantly bloating his self insertion to where it reaches Mary Sue levels.
There is little to no reason to feel bad for someone who has no problem with mocking and belittling fans of a franchise just because he thinks it's jolly good fun (for himself). Who has shown himself to be a horrible writer on level with many fanfics and who for all purposes fails to understand that what he's writing isn't a novel or book. It's a game, a game where both sides are playable and thus there needs to be some neutrality. This however is completly lacking in his case.
If his works weren't attached to the Warcraft franchise or even WoW he would most likely end up as another one of those barely scrapping by if even that authors nobody cares about. Not even the Stephenie Meyer of fantasy books but as one of the cheap knock offs.

[Trassk]

Completely agree with you, Trassk. The faction war was the worst WoW lore development so far and I honestly believe that was the point of MoP, to end it up and to show how silly it is.

I certainly got that from looking at it from a broad view. The pandaren and what happens in pandaria with the sha and the vale is the example the idiocy of war and how it causes nothing but misery.
But of course nobody cares about that shit, its all about who wins in the end. And when blizzard tells us its not about who wins in the end, its about what we've learned from this and how the horrors of war does bad things.. nobody understands, they didn't learn anything and just wants there side to win.

Edit: Ironically, Deleth serves as just such an example above this.

[Deleted]

And here we have a typical Trassk, some incomprehensible ranting and white knighting of some overpaid bloke who's a crappy writer. The only thing Chris Metzen did is to destroy the Warcraft lore most people knew and liked long before WoW came along. He inserted himself into the story and is constantly bloating his self insertion to where it reaches Mary Sue levels.
There is little to no reason to feel bad for someone who has no problem with mocking and belittling fans of a franchise just because he thinks it's jolly good fun (for himself). Who has shown himself to be a horrible writer on level with many fanfics and who for all purposes fails to understand that what he's writing isn't a novel or book. It's a game, a game where both sides are playable and thus there needs to be some neutrality. This however is completly lacking in his case.
If his works weren't attached to the Warcraft franchise or even WoW he would most likely end up as another one of those barely scrapping by if even that authors nobody cares about. Not even the Stephenie Meyer of fantasy books but as one of the cheap knock offs.

Amazing how the level of Metzen hatred goes, to the point of ignore that he created the Warcraft universe and 90% of its lore. And that he less involved with Warcraft story writing than he was before.

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I certainly got that from looking at it from a broad view. The pandaren and what happens in pandaria with the sha and the vale is the example the idiocy of war and how it causes nothing but misery.
But of course nobody cares about that shit, its all about who wins in the end. And when blizzard tells us its not about who wins in the end, its about what we've learned from this and how the horrors of war does bad things.. nobody understands, they didn't learn anything and just wants there side to win.

The worst part is it's called "bad story writting". No, just because you (not you, Trassk) didn't got what you imagined in your mind, it doesn't make a bad story.

[Hellfury]

Now, try and imagine it from the creators pov. If he answered your demands, you alliance players, and did what you asked, and made world of warcraft into world of alliance-craft, I'm certain you'd be overjoyed about that and laugh about it. But then, metzen would have to answer horde players who now feel betrayed by his writing and choices. And so, he would then have to give it back to the horde, and thus making you alliance into the same whining kids yet again.

Some of us just ask for WOW to be less World of Hordecraft, you see?

[luccadeo]

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-ut Alliance gets to kill Garrosh, a Horde l-l-l-l-l-l-eader!!11!!!1!!!1!!! And "invade" Ogrimmar, TEH HORDE CAPITAL!!!11!!!!1!!!!

GEEZ ALLIANCE IS NEVAR HAPPY! /s

So glad I dropped this game along with its garbage story. Having lots more fun elsewhere.

Same here. WoW's story died with Arthas for me.