Besides the squish, maybe not such huge gaps in ilvl

[Alexor]

the general idea seems to be the incoming tiers have to have a big jump in ilvl difference in order to provide a big enough challenge,.. maybe within the tier doesn't have to be as huge a gap,.. I think the current gear gap is exsesive,.. maybe im wrong..

the gap of ilvl between lfr and reg should probly be a big as big as it is now,.. but maybe reg from heroic shouldn't be that huge,.. the challenge of killing stuff from reg to heroic should be more mechanic, coordination based and less having to do with gear..

if your in reg gear ,.. heroic ilvl will be a small gap,.. a slight upgrade,.. I think the people that want heroics would still have the same insentive for that slightly less upgrade and still venture and have the drive for heroics,.. the heroic gear with just a few ilvls higher still very desirable for them.. I think the drive into heroics is less about gear,.. and the progression through heroics should be less gear based.

I am willing to consider I am wrong and don't know people well and having such small gaps of ilvl would kill many peoples insentive to strive for higher content, but I am not onvinced,.. but now I get the argument better... I went back and read the original ilvl squish post and found this:

"The numbers grew so much primarily because we wanted rewards to be compelling. Upgrading from a chestpiece that has 50 Strength into one that has 51 Strength is undeniably a DPS increase for the appropriate user, but it’s not a very exciting reward. Such negligible increases can drive players to do some weird things, such as skipping over tiers of gear or entire levels of content. This is particularly relevant when we’re talking about a new expansion. We don’t want level-85 players to have a reasonable shot at level-90 dungeons and raids (or PvP opponents) just because that content is balanced for gear that isn’t much better than what the level-85 players have."

I never payed attention to this part much but answers it all there,.. a smaller gap in ilvl wouldn't make the gear gear compeling enough or exciting. I disagree,.. but maybe im alone on this,.. I don't mind if ilvl are smaller from one tier to the next,.. but I guess I can see how between tiers a bigger gap is probably a better idea,. I don't belive within the tier, primarly from reg to heroic, the ilvl has to be so huge.. id still find a heroic pice and boss kill just as exciting and rewarding. am I alone here?

also when a new xpac hits,.. I am just as excited questing and getting to end game if there was no upgrades for me if I completed the previous xpacs end game,.. in fact id appreshate it more if I hit a new xpac and current heroic gear lasted me till I steped into a new end game 5 man or even the newest raid. am I alone here?

it makes more sence to me that if im questing in a lvl 60 area of vanilla, blastedlands, then headed into hellfire, the ilvl gap of the rewards wouldn't jump up all of a sudden,.. it should be a gradual smoothed over ilvl increase.. and if I had bwl gear twink and went on to lvl in bc,.. no gear would upgrade me till I hit shadowmoonvalley or wraths boringtundra.

I think bliz over estimates how big an upgrade needs to be in order for people to get excited over it, between teirs or at the very least , between xpacs..

so in the end I think I wouldn't mind such a huge gap of between tiers,.. while controlling the gap within the tier... and less of a gap between xpacs .

does anyone think I am underestimating the effect large inflated ilvl gaps between xpacs is important to keep gear rewards compeling and exciting?

and does anyone think large ilvl gaps within a tier, mainly norm to heroic, has to be so huge to make gear rewards compeling and exciting?

who would skip anymore tiers of gear or entire levels of content more then they do now if it was the case the ilvls wouldn't be as huge as they are now?

[Aensland]

I feel the real problem is how much your dps can scale within one tier now. Sure, new 80 to ICC 80 was huge. But LFR ToT 90 is lagging behind Normal ToT 90 by a good amount right now (I have toons at both playstyles and the latter is sometimes dealing twice as much DPS, which is a little insane when you consider the LFR ToT 90 is better geared then the normal ToT 90 was at the start of regular raiding in 5.2; and before you ask: it's the exact same class and spec).

I agree. I even mentioned the same issue in another thread not too long ago where heroic geared 540ilvl DPS can do twice the damage a 525ilvl can on some encounters. That's just half a tier worth of upgrades.

[Prokne]

the gap of ilvl between lfr and reg should probly be a big as big as it is now,.. but maybe reg from heroic shouldn't be that huge,..

I dont think its really the gap between difficulties that matters its the max ilvl of a tier that matters. ilvls increase by a certain amount each tier to correspond to a power increase of about 40%. The increase is taken probably from the last tier of heroic ilvl(heroic being higher and causing more inflation) so that the ilvl gap between tiers is the same for all difficulties, i.e. if normal ilvl goes up 20 heroic goes up 20. So to slow down stat inflation you need to cut off the top to limit the product of power(x)40% that accumulates each tier. The problem with heroic gear exacerbated gear inflation began in WotLK and Blizzard knew about it but didnt do anything to avoid it.

[Alexor]

I dont think its really the gap between difficulties that matters its the max ilvl of a tier that matters. ilvls increase by a certain amount each tier to correspond to a power increase of about 40%. The increase is taken probably from the last tier of heroic ilvl(heroic being higher and causing more inflation) so that the ilvl gap between tiers is the same for all difficulties, i.e. if normal ilvl goes up 20 heroic goes up 20. So to slow down stat inflation you need to cut off the top to limit the product of power(x)40% that accumulates each tier. The problem with heroic gear exacerbated gear inflation began in WotLK and Blizzard knew about it but didnt do anything to avoid it.

do you think large ilvl gaps within a tier, mainly norm to heroic, has to be so huge to make gear rewards compeling and exciting? or do you think a small upgrade when going from reg to heroic is good enough to make it a worth while reward?

[Sole-Warrior]

The only legit concern in regards to big numbers is that they might get too large for 32 bit clients while a large fraction of the player base still uses rather than 64 bit. Other than that, numbers should be a complete non issue.
Blizz may end up I level squishing once or twice down the road.
The aesthetic quality of seeing a 345,392,332 mindblast crit could be simply replaced with a 345M mind blast crit.

[Darsithis]

I agree. I even mentioned the same issue in another thread not too long ago where heroic geared 540ilvl DPS can do twice the damage a 525ilvl can on some encounters. That's just half a tier worth of upgrades.

Some of that is just gimmicks. As unholy I'm averaging 140 - 160k on bosses at 529 depending on procs, but certain fights (like heroic Jin'rokh) lend themselves to festerblight and allow me to put insane diseases on the boss to inflate my numbers.

[krognam]

The big issue that I'm waiting for is when 64bit client becomes mandatory because numbers get too big for 32bit (would still be playable just reduces performance far too much)

Good? It's 2013, there is no excuse for not having a 64-bit operating system. None.

[Baphomette]

The only legit concern in regards to big numbers is that they might get too large for 32 bit clients while a large fraction of the player base still uses rather than 64 bit. Other than that, numbers should be a complete non issue.

The game's minimum requirements already include a 64-bit CPU (Pentium D), and Microsoft is ceasing all support for Windows XP in about eight months.

Blizzard is under no obligation to continue 32-bit client support.

[ShmooDude]

The game's minimum requirements already include a 64-bit CPU (Pentium D), and Microsoft is ceasing all support for Windows XP in about eight months.

Blizzard is under no obligation to continue 32-bit client support.

... You do realize there's 32-bit versions of every operating system since XP right (including windows 8)?

According to http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurv...atform=windows about 22% of users are still running 32-bit OS's. The majority of those actually being windows 7 over windows XP. That is an awful lot of people to stop supporting (7.7 mil subscribers * 22% = ~1.7 million 32-bit users). You really think Bliz is just gonna dump these when they're already trying to retain subscriptions?

[Thage]

A lot of people are also forgetting the gear resets from 60-61 (most people who weren't in Naxxramas gear were replacing everything before even leaving Hellfire Peninsula), 80-85, and 85-90. Wrath is the odd man out here as world-first guilds were clearing Naxx10/25 in Sunwell gear, and even t4 lasted you until well into if not all the way through your first zone (be it the Tundra or the Fjord). Otherwise, there were total gear resets, and in the case of Cata and MoP, it started gradual then quickly ramped up so players in Icecrown blues/greens and Twilight Highlands blues/greens weren't being nuked by mobs tuned for people in t10/t13 and rocking Shadowmourne/Val'anyr or Dragonwrath/Fangs of the Father (and even then, people in Icecrown blues/greens initially had trouble until they started getting some gear from their first quests due to the mobs being a tad overtuned in Hyjal/Vashj'ir at first).

So between scaling through tiers, and gear resets between expansions, the item level squish is going to need to happen soon--and all things being equal, gear resets for previous expansions shouldn't be too big a concern since most leveling players don't stick around for level 60, 70, 80, or 85 raids for full sets of epic gear that gets replaced as they continue on the path to the new level cap and this will likely remain true for level 90 raids next expansion.

[anjan011]

I agree. I even mentioned the same issue in another thread not too long ago where heroic geared 540ilvl DPS can do twice the damage a 525ilvl can on some encounters. That's just half a tier worth of upgrades.

Do u understands that H mode bosses have about twice as much health compared to their normal modes? and add to it challenging mechanics. so if a 540 ilvl is not able to pull that much DPS, all u will see is hour long wipefest.

[SL1200]

It's an inherent property of the system. There is no "long term" solution to it.

It would be huge change for wow and players would probably prefer occasional squish(not me), but level capping the game would solve the (perceived) need for a squish.

[huth]

... You do realize there's 32-bit versions of every operating system since XP right (including windows 8)?

According to http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurv...atform=windows about 22% of users are still running 32-bit OS's. The majority of those actually being windows 7 over windows XP. That is an awful lot of people to stop supporting (7.7 mil subscribers * 22% = ~1.7 million 32-bit users). You really think Bliz is just gonna dump these when they're already trying to retain subscriptions?

Windows "XP x64" is actually a variant of Windows Server 2003. There is no 64bit XP.
You're also comparing apples to kumquats, the ratio for WoW might be totally different. Many steam games don't even have 64bit versions, so there is little reason to run a 64bit OS.

It would be huge change for wow and players would probably prefer occasional squish(not me), but level capping the game would solve the (perceived) need for a squish.

How so? I cannot see any scenario where it would even have an effect on it.

[Evil Inside]

The whole reason they made the ilvl gap so huge between expansions is exactly because they dont want you to use previous expansion's end-game gear in current content.

[smokii]

i've just posted a similar topic on the official forums, there's too much ilvl diversity ingame - especially with SoO. 4 different ilvls for 1 tier!

my idea for it, would be to extend tier sets in the harder difficulties and tune the encounters with those set bonuses in mind.

it would work out something like this:
all LFR gear = ilvl 502, except the 2 tier pieces which would be ilvl 522 (gloves and shoulders)
all flexi gear = ilvl 502, except the 4 tier pieces which would be ilvl 522 (chest and legs)
all normal gear = ilvl 522 + additional tier pieces (bracers and boots)
all heroic gear = every boss drops tier pieces, including tier helms and bracers + lots of cosmetic stuff (mounts, titles, transmog set pieces)

[SL1200]

No more leveling means the (perceived) need for a squish would no longer exist. The inflation of gear Ilevel would be slowed down, and the really big annoying numbers that haven't happened yet, but are predicted in the blog blizzard put out before mop won't happen for many expansions.

I don't want to keep leveling my character if it means we have to have a squish every couple expansions like Ghostcrawler has suggested might be necessary.

Just trying to add something different than my usual lines of HELL NO, I don't want a squish. I have not changed my mind about the squish, I still think it's a really bad idea.

[Trassk]

As long as I can still solo old world stuff at max level, and it doesn't make leveling a new alt a nightmare, I'm fine with it.

[yjmark]

I completely agree that gear progression is too large within an expansion. It should get toned down.

Another benefit of toning it down would be that you would not need so many "catch up" mechanisms. The fact that Blizz is focusing so much on catch up mechanisms tells me that they are putting too much effort into a band aid, and not fixing the actual issue.

[Terridon]

For some reason, Blizzard doesn't think putting the normal mode gear at same iLvl as previous tier's heroic gear is a good idea.

I can't understand why, it would keep the previous tier alive for normal mode guilds, so you'd have more options.

Every tier, same difficulty gear should get a +13 boost, and that's it.

So for TOT, the ilvl would have been:

Raid Finder: 476 + 13 = 489
Normal Modes: 496 + 13 = 509
Heroic Modes: 509 + 13 = 522

I think not many would have had a problem with that.

The ilvl inflation this tier is making initial pve content a complete joke. Pretty sure you'll be able to solo most of the heroics onces you'll have Siege of Orgrimarr heroic gear.

Don't see it being a bigger percentage of damage. wotlk was 1k in the beginning. For a while people looked for people doing at least 3k, and at the end the highend did 12k dps. so a rough 12X more dps.
cata you started with 7-10k dps on about any class when you could go into hc(provided you knew the class). Can't remember the initial dps in cata.. Around 3k dps, no? and with dragon souls silly system you could do a good deal more than 50k at the end, so more like 20-25X more dps.
In this expansion we started out at 20k dps, and people do 200-300kish with good gear, and we have one more raiditer left, so loks like we end up at the the good 20X more dps again.
Doesn't look that inflated to me, compared to before. Just higher numbers to watch.

Edit: Writing in a hammock is hard :<

[huth]

No more leveling means the (perceived) need for a squish would no longer exist. The inflation of gear Ilevel would be slowed down, and the really big annoying numbers that haven't happened yet, but are predicted in the blog blizzard put out before mop won't happen for many expansions.

I don't want to keep leveling my character if it means we have to have a squish every couple expansions like Ghostcrawler has suggested might be necessary.

Just trying to add something different than my usual lines of HELL NO, I don't want a squish. I have not changed my mind about the squish, I still think it's a really bad idea.

The iLvl squish is not related to leveling at all. The iLvl jumps between expansions are so people stop using previous expansion gear and to level the playing field. That would still be necessary even if the level cap stayed constant.

All you're doing is making people run into stat caps. Leveling is done to introduce new abilities and reset ratings back to levels that allow for further growth.(Otherwise, everybody would eventually run around with 100% crit etc.)