Alliance and Chris Metzen

[Durandro]

Some of us just ask for WOW to be less World of Hordecraft, you see?

I can agree with this, even as a Horde player.

Showing the grey morality of the conflict, the pointlessness, the waste, that's good storytelling. Having the Alliance being the punching bag and joke during this isn't.

Theramore gets destroyed, and in a fit of anger and vengence a Horde down gets wiped out - not a tiny outpost like Taurajo, but a significant hub of activity. That would have been interesting - especially if it was a well loved town like Crossroads.

Stonard gets captured by the Alliance, but is treated fairly and isn't razed to the ground. Then it gets taken back without even informing the Alliance player that their actions were pointless. Horde loses nothing.

[Hughes]

You people really are selfish brats.

Try to, for a moment, put yourself in chris metzens shoes. I know thats a really big stretch asking you lot to try and use empathy, but for those who might just manage it, give it a go.

Here you have the guy, who gave us world of warcraft. All your bitching and moaning about this game and your reason for feeling this overblown sense of faction pride, it comes from what he made, the story he made for us to be pessimistic about, to rage about, to enjoy and hate, he made it, not you.
All you people are, and those clinging to it, and biting the hand that feeds you.

Now, try and imagine it from the creators pov. If he answered your demands, you alliance players, and did what you asked, and made world of warcraft into world of alliance-craft, I'm certain you'd be overjoyed about that and laugh about it. But then, metzen would have to answer horde players who now feel betrayed by his writing and choices. And so, he would then have to give it back to the horde, and thus making you alliance into the same whining kids yet again.

As a creator of a product that has this kind of reaction from those invested in it, metzen has to try and balance the story as much as he can. And sometimes its hard to balance it, because the weight of the story makes it feel more focused in one side then the other. Wrath was focused a lot more on the alliance, but I bet you alliance didn't think of it like that, because you were content with it being that way.

Instead of throwing the same old shit about how you want the game to be about you and your needs, how about you suggest something that would balance the story. We had that kind of focus back in WC3 in its RTS format, as the alliance and horde had there own stories happening that were separate from each other.

My suggestion would be, make the next expansion, where alliance and horde have as little to do with each other as possible, and focus on there own story.

Are you listening to yourself here? I mean, seriously. Not one person has asked for a "world of alliance-craft," that's you digging for straws YET AGAIN in a shabby attempt to feel high and mighty.

No one has argued about Wrath being 'alliance' heavy, but your points earlier on how many big bad bosses were "Alliance" fell flat on it's face, so I'm not going to take this one seriously either.

We never asked for it to be about what 'we' want or 'our' needs, just for a more 'equal' story. You keep spitting out the same rhetoric and it makes about as much sense as it did before (very little). You freely insult anyone who disagrees with you, dismissing them as idiots or 'alliance whiners.' Put yourself in their shoes, reading your posts. Hopefully you will realize YOU are the selfish brat.

[Durandro]

One city in a contested zone which had maybe six quests in return for an entire HALF of a zone which actually was used for questing!

Not quite. Southshore had a few dozen quests and was a stepping stone into Alterac and Hinterlands as well.

Southern Barrens had a bare handful of quests, the vast majority of it was in the north. Now there's loads of quests in the South, for Horde and Alliance. And there's nothing for the Alliance in Hillsbrad anymore.

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We never asked for it to be about what 'we' want or 'our' needs, just for a more 'equal' story. You keep spitting out the same rhetoric and it makes about as much sense as it did before (very little). You freely insult anyone who disagrees with you, dismissing them as idiots or 'alliance whiners.' Put yourself in their shoes, reading your posts. Hopefully you will realize YOU are the selfish brat.

I am pretty bored of the Alliance bashing as well. We all pay the same subs, we all deserve the same quality of story and gameplay. Asking for a little love for the Alliance to balance out the sheer amount of Horde love (which Blizzard even admitted was a problem a while back) isn't whining or bratty at all!

[Arcanist]

Are you listening to yourself here? I mean, seriously. Not one person has asked for a "world of alliance-craft," that's you digging for straws YET AGAIN in a shabby attempt to feel high and mighty.

No one has argued about Wrath being 'alliance' heavy, but your points earlier on how many big bad bosses were "Alliance" fell flat on it's face, so I'm not going to take this one seriously either.

We never asked for it to be about what 'we' want or 'our' needs, just for a more 'equal' story. You keep spitting out the same rhetoric and it makes about as much sense as it did before (very little). You freely insult anyone who disagrees with you, dismissing them as idiots or 'alliance whiners.' Put yourself in their shoes, reading your posts. Hopefully you will realize YOU are the selfish brat.

No matter how many times he's called on it, he trots out that tired old strawman (Alliance won't be happy until the Horde is destroyed) again, and again.

[Austilias]

We never asked for it to be about what 'we' want or 'our' needs, just for a more 'equal' story. You keep spitting out the same rhetoric and it makes about as much sense as it did before (very little). You freely insult anyone who disagrees with you, dismissing them as idiots or 'alliance whiners.' Put yourself in their shoes, reading your posts. Hopefully you will realize YOU are the selfish brat.

It's all very easily rebuked; if Arthas counts an an Alliance boss, then surely it follows that Garrosh counts as a Horde boss? Except he doesn't, because 'The Horde' is rising up against him, just as 'The Alliance' and others rose up against Arthas. It doesn't take long to recognize that a sizable amount of what Trassk claims, depends on the claim that there is an equal or greater amount of Alliance 'action' in the game, which is repeatedly demonstrated to be plain wrong. Since Cataclysm, and even prior to it, the Alliance have been little more than reactionaries; reacting to everything the Horde does, rather than instigating anything on its own. The WoW story in recent years has consisted of the Horde largely doing what it wants with impunity (Gilneas, Hillsbrad, etc) and the Alliance swooping in soon afterward to pick up the pieces and mount pitiful little counter-attacks.

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I am pretty bored of the Alliance bashing as well. We all pay the same subs, we all deserve the same quality of story and gameplay. Asking for a little love for the Alliance to balance out the sheer amount of Horde love (which Blizzard even admitted was a problem a while back) isn't whining or bratty at all!

I'd be fine if we weren't told to expect it; but that's what Metzen tells us at the beginning of every expansion:

Woo! Guys, are you ready for your big fist-pumping moment? We promise you it's coming this time!

And each time, it doesn't. If the Alliance are destined to be the perennial losers, left to pick up the pieces and react to anything the Horde does, at least do us the dignity of telling us truthfully so we don't get our hopes up with each expansion.

[Deleted]

Woo! Guys, are you ready for your big fist-pumping moment? We promise you it's coming this time!

And each time, it doesn't. If the Alliance are destined to be the perennial losers, left to pick up the pieces and react to anything the Horde does, at least do us the dignity of telling us truthfully so we don't get our hopes up with each expansion.

We need to move from the "fist-pumping" argument. According to Kosak, it was Dalaran. It failed to deliver? Each to each own, but it ends there.

[rowaasr13]

Then you proceed into this battle and basicly mess up anything you like during the combat (Woops? I could have avoided trashing that? Too late).

So, are you saying Alliance gets to kill any more than Horde in SoO?

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They are already doing what he said. You get to raid Orgrimmar and kill Garrosh.

You (as in "Horde") get to raid Orgrimmar and kill Garrosh too. So?

[Austilias]

We need to move from the "fist-pumping" argument. According to Kosak, it was Dalaran. It failed to deliver? Each to each own, but it ends there.

I find it quite ironic that we have to "move from the fist pumping moment", not long after the one they tried to give the Alliance fell flat on its face; as opposed to the fist pumping moments of the Horde that are still there to see in-game, whether with respect to the Theramore scenario, Gilneas, the entire Hillsbrad quest line and more. But then that's already what they're doing; the Alliance doesn't get revenge or anything of the sort. On the contrary, they're the ones paving the way to a degree of faction neutrality. How thrilling.

[Deleted]

I agree with you, though my disappointment in Cataclysm was the utter failure of the Alliance to lay claim to a single victory. They don't even take Stonard for crying out loud. They don't do anything in Arathi. Nobody even mentions or seems to care about South Shore until Rogers mentions it in MoP. GILNEAN REFUGEES DIDN'T EVEN GET A STORY!!! >_o

The Cata experience was pretty much "Horde kicks your teeth in, do something to stop them from taking your head off. Congrats, they didn't slaughter you. Go cough up that blood and get back to it." Our settlements were in ruins, half built, and seemed incomplete while Horde in the same time frame build fully fortified defensive structures of stone and metal. I mean, we can't even get our shit together to build a tower. :/

I'm okay with South Shore being wiped out (well, not really. It was originally the Cataclysm that wiped it, then we get "surprise, Forsaken did it" instead), I'm okay with the Dragonmaw attacking the dwarves (though I would have liked some indication the red dragonflight aren't cool with Garrosh's Horde accepting their slavers into the fold), I'm okay with Northwatch getting stomped, I'm okay with Theramore even. It's just the complete lack of response from the Alliance and the few times they do take an offensive, they seem to screw it up that was disapointing.

The problem is that the Horde factions have (sometimes conflicting) goals, and are proactive about them; whereas the Alliance factions aren't too distinct from one another in terms of motivation, and are mainly reactive.

As a matter of preference, with the exception of Silvermoon nationalism and Forsaken irredentism (which I think is appropriate enough), I think the Kalimdor horde would be better portrayed not as a land empire, but instead as a more transient mobile force navigating their way around More permanent, better defended Alliance holdings.

Broadly speaking, it 'suits' the Alliance better to be a defensive force, because they have more to lose. That's not to say they shouldn't be attacking Horde targets, but merely that said attacks would be from the context of protecting Alliance holdings. This requires them to win more often than they lose, and be the more powerful force (albeit tied down). Meanwhile, as a more offensive force, the Horde's story should reflect how much it sucks to be such a force- offensive forces are such because they have little to defend, because they have little. There should be a twinge of desperation motivating the Horde- the need to move on for food, shelter, to avoid Alliance counter-attacks and reprisals, to position themselves for a surprise strike against an unexpected target.

The idea of a conventional, drawn-lines, war between two equivalent powers is dull, I think. Or at least it is covered by the conflict in the EK already. Asyssmetry is much more compelling, and the untamed wilds of Kalimdor make a good setting for it. The tenuous but necessary alliance between the shamanic Orc and Tauren Horde in Kalimdor and the corrupt Forsaken and Blood Elven peoples in the EK would feel so much more tense if it really was necessary- if each half *felt* like it was at the brink of capitulation were it not for the pressure taken off by the other half.

Anyway that's all speculative. With the status quo we have now, the Nelves should have the upper hand in Kalimdor. Being Horde in Kalimdor forests should feel like being American in the 1960's Vietnamese jungle- no surge should be able to overcome the fact that these are immortal warriors who have been intimately familiar with these forests for thousands of years. To the point the forests of Kalimdor should inspire dread in the Horde- who would prefer to march through Sillithis, Uldum, and Tanaris aand the Thousand needles rather than cut through Feralas to get to Mulgore. Conversely, though, the Horde would enjoy relative strength and safety on the open plains and deserts with no comparable open-field army in Kalimdor to challenge them.

Oh dear I'm rambling.

[Arcanist]

Yeah, let's move away from the "fist pumping" moment, eh? Just more bullshit from Metzen and Blizzard from a long line of other bullshit.

[Austilias]

Yeah, let's move away from the "fist pumping" moment, eh? Just more bullshit from Metzen and Blizzard from a long line of other bullshit.

One must remember that our 'fist pumping moment' was neutered from the outset. The Horde had a whale of a time effectively nuking Theramore, never mind the various other triumphs in Cataclysm; yet it was confirmed, rather early on, that the 'Alliance revenge' was not going to be upon 'The Horde', but rather, 'Big Bad Garrosh and his Big Mean Supporters', thus wiping the so-called True Horde's hand cleans of everything that happened beforehand.

Who knows; maybe this 'True Horde' will make some concessions post-SoO in a patch prior to the next expansion (at least one is confirmed), but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Hellfury]

Chriz will come to Blizzcom with a shirt with a aliance logo, shouting something silly like "for the alliance" promissing stuff.

Ohh wait that already happened.

[Arcanist]

Chriz will come to Blizzcom with a shirt with a aliance logo, shouting something silly like "for the alliance" promissing stuff.

Ohh wait that already happened.

I actually thought about going to the next Blizzcon, but I really don't think I'd feel welcome (or safe) because I'm a non-heterosexual Alliance player.

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One must remember that our 'fist pumping moment' was neutered from the outset. The Horde had a whale of a time effectively nuking Theramore, never mind the various other triumphs in Cataclysm; yet it was confirmed, rather early on, that the 'Alliance revenge' was not going to be upon 'The Horde', but rather, 'Big Bad Garrosh and his Big Mean Supporters', thus wiping the so-called True Horde's hand cleans of everything that happened beforehand.

Who knows; maybe this 'True Horde' will make some concessions post-SoO in a patch prior to the next expansion (at least one is confirmed), but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm sure the "True Horde" will throw Alliance a bone out of pure pity, lol.

[Holtzmann]

Chriz will come to Blizzcom with a shirt with a aliance logo, shouting something silly like "for the alliance" promissing stuff.

Ohh wait that already happened.

Maybe this time around he won't do that while carrying a Doomhammer. A man can dream...

Anyway, this thread has gone in circles. I think we've presented our grievances enough times, and I'm extremely happy I have a few people who posted here ignored otherwise I'm pretty sure this thread would have been at least two pages longer by now. We should probably let it rest and hope and pray the patch after SoO and before the next expansion isn't just Horde's Next Top Model-- I mean, Warchief. Blizzard has one last chance to throw the Alliance a bone. Sadly, I'm not very hopeful for that...

[Hughes]

Maybe this time around he won't do that while carrying a Doomhammer. A man can dream...

Anyway, this thread has gone in circles. I think we've presented our grievances enough times, and I'm extremely happy I have a few people who posted here ignored otherwise I'm pretty sure this thread would have been at least two pages longer by now. We should probably let it rest and hope and pray the patch after SoO and before the next expansion isn't just Horde's Next Top Model-- I mean, Warchief. Blizzard has one last chance to throw the Alliance a bone. Sadly, I'm not very hopeful for that...

Agreed, mod closing incoming please

[Trassk]

I actually thought about going to the next Blizzcon, but I really don't think I'd feel welcome (or safe) because I'm a non-heterosexual Alliance player.

Well, you can join the horde, and join us in our campaign to free azeroth from the church of holy nothingness, since humans seems to believe in... nothing at all, seriously, night elves believes in something more solid then they do.

[Faroth]

Anyway that's all speculative. With the status quo we have now, the Nelves should have the upper hand in Kalimdor. Being Horde in Kalimdor forests should feel like being American in the 1960's Vietnamese jungle- no surge should be able to overcome the fact that these are immortal warriors who have been intimately familiar with these forests for thousands of years. To the point the forests of Kalimdor should inspire dread in the Horde- who would prefer to march through Sillithis, Uldum, and Tanaris aand the Thousand needles rather than cut through Feralas to get to Mulgore. Conversely, though, the Horde would enjoy relative strength and safety on the open plains and deserts with no comparable open-field army in Kalimdor to challenge them.

I love the way you think. This is spot on. Each side has their strengths and weaknesses and it would be nice to see that played up.

[Deleted]

I certainly got that from looking at it from a broad view. The pandaren and what happens in pandaria with the sha and the vale is the example the idiocy of war and how it causes nothing but misery.
But of course nobody cares about that shit, its all about who wins in the end. And when blizzard tells us its not about who wins in the end, its about what we've learned from this and how the horrors of war does bad things.. nobody understands, they didn't learn anything and just wants there side to win.

Edit: Ironically, Deleth serves as just such an example above this.

And here we have Trassk coming up with some very, very lame excuses for the whole thing. First of all this is a game, it's for entertainment and going with the whole "We just want to teach people something!" excuse is pretty lame. Not that they're not in the position to teach us anything, nor do they even have the right to attempt so, it in general makes for very bad stories and is extremly poorly done in WoW if it were really their intent.
They glorify war as long as it's against neutral/villanious factions, they even reward us with shiny loot, gold, titles and awesome mounts for our exploits. When was the last time we sat down with a villain and solved the whole issue using diplomacy? Even in the inter faction war the war was usually shown as "awesome" and "glorified" as long as it came to the Horde.
There wasn't a single time when I was chided, my action were shown as wrong or the Alliance was presented to me as anything but people whom we can kill without a second thought. During Cataclysm the Orcs ran wild in Ashenvale slaughtering everyone they could get their hands on, the forsaken did similar atrocities (alongside experimenting and torturing prisonders and following a genocidal campaign) and attacked a completly neutral county back then.
All the stuff we did back then was shown as JUSTIFIED and RIGHT and at no points they had ANY KIND OF CONSEQUENCES this went so far as that the Argent Crusade and Circle of Cenarius were sitting right by as we re blighted the cleansed plague lands, slaughtered people left and right and turned them into undead. The only one to ever call Sylvannas out was GARROSH!

But as soon as Blizzard is forced to notice that the whole point thing has leaned too much into one direction and they should try to at least get it to where it is somewhat balanced again they take out the big "WAR IS EVIL nkay" stick and happily start beating up on the players, the Alliance players that is. Because their supposed victories are shown as moraly grey and only theirs for that matter and usually cost them as much as they gain. Tell me, why exactly does the faction who was at the receiving end of Garrosh aggression and got steamrolled in Cataclysm ends up having to be "taught a lesson" and take most of the losses this time around aswell?

Hell, we don't even lose ANY of the gains we've made during Cataclysm while also getting to put blame solely with Garrosh. After doing exactly what Garrosh wanted and commiting all this stuff some even without him asking, like wiping out Nijels Point, we get to blame Garrosh for all the wrongdoings of the Horde and point fingers at the Alliance for not being "moraly superior" during Dalaran.

This makes no sense whatsoever and is completly idiotic. It's like the Nazis being allowed to keep all their conquests, the British and Americans apologizing and then going back to their respective countries so the Nazis can rebuild for the next war while also holding the moral high ground because 5 minutes before the war would've ended they decided to off Hitler.

Amazing how the level of Metzen hatred goes, to the point of ignore that he created the Warcraft universe and 90% of its lore. And that he less involved with Warcraft story writing than he was before.

Story existed before him, whole thing was stolen from Warhammer in the beginning and even planned as a Warhammer franchise game.

As a openly horde biased player, openly disgruntled with this whole SoO affair, accepting that it is taking place I'm even more disappointed that the Horde won't be suffering any of the logical conquences of an alliance occupation and strategic upper hand. Because it ruins the verisimilitude of it all; it shatters my suspension of disbelief. I like Garrosh, and seing him go makes me sad; but seeing the Alliance take Orgrimmar, then just shrig and leave it snaps me out of my immersion entirely. I can literally see a giant hand of mandatory gameplay balance restoring the status quo.

I'm not saying that the status quo and gameplay concerns aren't valid- I'm saying the plot should detour around pitfalls like that, rather than just careen straight into it, then reset itself.

I'm a Horde player myself, I have exactly one Alliance char solely for seeing both sides and ganking on my server since the Alliance has long since died out around here. The problem for me is, non of this makes any sense. They beat up on the wrong faction with the "War is bad stick" while we get to keep everything and GAIN even more so to speak.

The problem is, what constitutes a victory? Something seen in game? Because if that's the case, then yes the Alliance has been shafted quite a bit in that sense. But only because the last time Blizzard tried to set things in stone by showing them in game (Cataclysm), people not only complained because the world they remembered was taken away from them, but also because Alliance victories were ignored. The Alliance pushed all the way through Dustwallow Marsh and into the Southern Barrens, sacked Taurajo and created an entire zone that was once Horde only into a contested zone. Mulgore would have been next if the Tauren hadn't seen it coming and built the Great Wall of Mulgore, which in many ways was a massive loss for the Tauren.

There's several problems with all of this, first of all there were no real Alliance victories during Cataclysm, just some times they temporarily did not lose. Also every single last "victory" they had was done before players enter the fray, they were off screen with the players not being involved in them in any kind of way.
While other things such as the battle for Andorhal were ingame and often lost for no apparent reason aside from Thassarian wanting to go after his girlfriend instead of standing and fighting and the forsaken just whipping out the Valkyr as a deus ex machina to win the day when Kolthiras nearly made us lose.

The same goes for wiping out the Stormpikes, for destroying Nijels point, for blowing up that Druid school in Stonetalon Mountain and so on and on. Our "victories" are actually shown to us, by that time the Alliance has either been told they lost or already moved on to the next zone and never even gets to know that all their efforts were in vain and they were curbstomped by us once more.

And you mention Southern Barrens, I think you will be happy to hear that in lore all the Alliance troops there are dead/defeated and gone. In lore we won in Southern Barrens and drove the Alliance back, in lore we defeated the guerilla Worgen and did some other stuff. The problem here is, they refuse to even acknowledge the Alliance victory in lore without depicting it in game. Which means we will keep half of Ashenvale, we will keep the entirety of Stonetalon Mountains, we will keep every single last gain we made despite apparently losing the war.

I will give you Stonard. Stonard was fully assaulted and the Alliance were winning that battle. Why they didn't phase Stonard and make it so it at least LOOKED destroyed after the quest was done is beyond me. Ashenvale, however, was well done if you ask me. The Horde has long been pushing into Ashenvale, even under Thrall's rule. It makes sense that a lot of the zone would be Horde controlled at this point, especially so close to Orgrimmar.

It's just as close to Teldrassil and the Exodar and Nelf coreland for that matter. The problem here is that for once the Alliance story line takes place AFTER the Horde one. They basically drive us back over half the zone. The problem here again is, there's no phasing. There's one quest where you first come in and wipe out some Horde demolishers and troops attacking an Alliance outpost. You beat them back, but as soon as the phasing is done everything goes back to how it was before you came and you have those Horde demolishers eternally firing at the Alliance base, it just serves to show that Blizzard simply can't be bothered.

But then I constantly hear about Southshore, and how it's destruction went 'unopposed.' Yeah, it went unopposed in the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, which has long since been getting dominated by the Blood Elves and Forsaken. But your push into the Southern Barrens is easily something that opposes, if not completely nullifies that point. One city in a contested zone which had maybe six quests in return for an entire HALF of a zone which actually was used for questing!

Actually the Alliance did have quite a few quests in that zone and it served as hub for the entire Northern Easter Kingdoms. With it gone it actually is an extremly big hassle to get up there for the other quests, but apparently Blizzard didn't care about that.

The big problem here is that Southshore is an very iconic city. Back during Classic there was constant warfare between Southshore and Tarrens Mill between the players. It's why so many players remember both or at least their faction city very fondly. So losing this city off-screen must've hurt players who've been around long enough, losing it to the Horde on top of that must've been a knee to the groin for them. I know how I'd react if we had lost Tarrens Mill in a similar faction.

And again you bring up the Southern Barrens, we won that in lore and got it back. The Alliance did not.

But yet these victories are constantly ignored and passed aside like they didn't happen. Which leads me to believe it's NOT just being shown in game that matters. So what constitutes a victory? Slaughtering thousands? Razing cities to the ground? Being the more level-headed faction, or the other way around and NOT being the more level-headed faction? No matter what the Alliance does, they are supposedly ALWAYS on the losing side. This is why I have trouble taking Alliance seriously.

Oh please. The problem here is that Alliance isn't winning anything at all. What does constitute to a victory? Us nuking the entirety of Theramore, another very long standing and history rich Alliance city. Us driving the Alliance back from Andorhal. Us pretty much taking the entirety of Stonetalon Mountains and so on and on and on.
And the biggest part of this is depiction IN GAME, our victories and even small wins usually are shown. Just go to the Howling Fjord where we get to drive away an entire Alliance fleet and slaughter the survivors of another fleet that was previously smashed off screen.

[Vaelorian]

As long as any real victory isn't shown in-game, the alliance won't be happy. And rightfully so. Not hard to empathize with tbh

[DarkstarG]

Quickly browsed the thread and my first thought is.... who cares, just enjoy the damn game.

Story existed before him, whole thing was stolen from Warhammer in the beginning and even planned as a Warhammer franchise game.

So Warcraft was inspired partially by warhammer...and warhammer is inspired by what? There is nothing new to see here, everything that has ever been has been inspired by something else.