What spec are you starting 5.4 with

[TyralisUH]

No, just no. Klaxxi is single target fight

It depends on your strat. If you're gonna keep Korven the Prime for a while (which you should), fire cleave is the best as well as cleaving down the parasites, blood slimes and kunchongs.

[Deleted]

Immerseus -> Fire (Heavy movement fight; Playing RoP will pretty much be impossible on that fight because of pools.)

The Fallen Protectors -> Arcane (Light movement fight + multi dotting)

Norushen -> Arcane (Light movement fight + multi dotting)

Sha of Pride -> Arcane (Light movement fight + ''quick'' AOE. Cone of Cold and AE are delicious on that fight with Arcane's mastery.)

Galakras -> Fire (Heavy cleave fight)

Iron Juggernaut -> Fire (Heavy movement fight)

Kor'kron Dark Shaman -> Arcane (Light movement fight + multi dotting. Of course, it depends on your strat but if you can afford to DOT both bosses and still stay around your RoP without too much movement, Arcane is better)

General Nazgrim -> Arcane (Light movement fight + multi dotting)

Malkorok -> Arcane/Fire (From my opinion, both specs are viable on that fight, It's a medium movement fight. It will mostly depend how your raids deals with pools soaking and Breath of Y'shaarj)

Spoils of Pandaria -> Fire (Heavy cleave fight)

Thok the Bloodthirsty -> Oh shit we're fucked (To be serious, I think Arcane will be better for that fight, at least on normal mode. The heroic strat will probably be all about pushing the AOE silence/interrupt to its limit to min/max DPS in P1. For that reason, any caster spec sucks on that fight. If Frost isn't too bad, it might be the way to go for that fight because of instant casts and pet DMG)

Siegecrafter Blackfuse -> Fire (Heavy movement fight)

Paragons of the Klaxxi -> Fire (Heavy cleave fight)

Garrosh Hellscream -> Fire/Arcane (Even if It's a ''Heavy cleave fight'', Arcane is also very viable for that fight. There isn't much movement required, the ABr cleave is just insane and the off dots on the weapon is awesome.)

Either you haven't tested the majority of these fights and are just going off what you think will work or you're judging them wrong.

Main offenders:

Immerseus - Currently favours Arcane. Larger RoP helps a lot with movement issues and Fire lacks burst for the adds, plus the lower on health the boss is (after each pool-soaking), the worse Fire gets.

Galakras - Add waves are fairly consistent and come before Combustion's cooldown is off, hence why the fight favours Elemental Shamans so much. Favours Arcane due to constant multi-dot power.

Spoils of Pandaria - Absolute dogshit for Fire. Arcane king. Multi-dot far, far too strong for Fire's limited cleave potential there.

Siegecrafter - Not as heavy movement as you think, Arcane better at bursting down priority targets.

Paragons - No. Just, no. It's about ST burst and/or what Single Target DPS you gain from multi-dotting. Arcane wins here.

[TyralisUH]

Immerseus - Currently favours Arcane. Larger RoP helps a lot with movement issues and Fire lacks burst for the adds, plus the lower on health the boss is (after each pool-soaking), the worse Fire gets.

Galakras - Add waves are fairly consistent and come before Combustion's cooldown is off, hence why the fight favours Elemental Shamans so much. Favours Arcane due to constant multi-dot power.

Spoils of Pandaria - Absolute dogshit for Fire. Arcane king. Multi-dot far, far too strong for Fire's limited cleave potential there.

Siegecrafter - Not as heavy movement as you think, Arcane better at bursting down priority targets.

Paragons - No. Just, no. It's about ST burst and/or what Single Target DPS you gain from multi-dotting. Arcane wins here.

I can agree about Immerseus' burst. Fire sucks for adds too. But if you actually tested the encounter, you would know that playing Arcane isnt optimal on that fight. Even if you could manage a good positioning with you RoP, the movement will kill you.

About Paragons, it is also possible to play both so I'll agree on that. It's gonna come down to how you're gonna handle adds/bosses really.

Spoils of Pandaria : Idk if you actually tested this fight but I did 3 times. You wanna burst down a ''main target'' and cleave the rest down in order to meet the timer. If you focus too much on aoe/multi dotting, you wont be putting the DMG at the right place at the right time, especially on heroic.

It's the same for Galakras. It's a rookie mistake to think that multi dotting a fight like this one can help you with the fight. Just like Spoils, you wanna DPS down a main target while cleaving down the rest. This is why Arcane's multi dotting will be usless compared to fire. Fire's cleave is a lot better than Arcane's, especially if you're gonna waste all your GCDs applying NT to targets who dont need to die right away.

As for Siegecrafter, I tested it yesterday. It depends on what weapons you keep, of course. But tbh, spreading ignite to mines is just priceless and you wont be able to do it with ABrs once they spread. As for the movement, your guild won't disable the magnet just for you to stay in place. Trust me, if you truly think the fight is do-able as Arcane, think again.

I just put my own fights out there. I can agree that it always depends on the strat you're using and on the dps requirements. Some specs might not be the best DPS wise, but you don't always want the biggest DPS spec for progression. The point of my post was saying the fights I had the most success with and therefore which spec I'm gonna play and why. You are clearly a fire hater, don't let that cloud your judgement as you need the best spec in progression, not the one you prefer.

[Pandacally]

We still have 3 more weeks to consider now, patch comes 10th of september and not on the 27th
Maybe then the numbers will also be better than they are now... and its good to already have the first number pass

[Deleted]

I can agree about Immerseus' burst. Fire sucks for adds too. But if you actually tested the encounter, you would know that playing Arcane isnt optimal on that fight. Even if you could manage a good positioning with you RoP, the movement will kill you.

About Paragons, it is also possible to play both so I'll agree on that. It's gonna come down to how you're gonna handle adds/bosses really.

Spoils of Pandaria : Idk if you actually tested this fight but I did 3 times. You wanna burst down a ''main target'' and cleave the rest down in order to meet the timer. If you focus too much on aoe/multi dotting, you wont be putting the DMG at the right place at the right time, especially on heroic.

It's the same for Galakras. It's a rookie mistake to think that multi dotting a fight like this one can help you with the fight. Just like Spoils, you wanna DPS down a main target while cleaving down the rest. This is why Arcane's multi dotting will be usless compared to fire. Fire's cleave is a lot better than Arcane's, especially if you're gonna waste all your GCDs applying NT to targets who dont need to die right away.

As for Siegecrafter, I tested it yesterday. It depends on what weapons you keep, of course. But tbh, spreading ignite to mines is just priceless and you wont be able to do it with ABrs once they spread. As for the movement, your guild won't disable the magnet just for you to stay in place. Trust me, if you truly think the fight is do-able as Arcane, think again.

I just put my own fights out there. I can agree that it always depends on the strat you're using and on the dps requirements. Some specs might not be the best DPS wise, but you don't always want the biggest DPS spec for progression. The point of my post was saying the fights I had the most success with and therefore which spec I'm gonna play and why. You are clearly a fire hater, don't let that cloud your judgement as you need the best spec in progression, not the one you prefer.

Rather amusing how you've only (seemingly) tested from a Fire PoV and not from all 3 specs PoV, then have the guts to say I might not have tested the fights.

Immerseus; the movement doesn't "kill you" as Arcane, if you think it does you simply don't understand how to optimise micro-movement.

Spoils; without wanting to sound elitist or disrespectful, I don't think you understand how Arcane multi-dotting works. Arcane burst is also FAR stronger than Fire burst outside of Combustion, and once you've used Combustion you're then without full-potential burst for 1.5 mins, Arcane doesn't have such restrictions. Also, if you have to "burst down" priority targets to meet the enrage then I'm pretty sure you have more DPS issues than my guild does. Even on HC we weren't having problems meeting the timer restraints.

Galakras; same applies - I don't think you understand how Arcane multi-dotting works and Arcane burst is both stronger and more consistent than Fire's.

Siegecrafter; I go back to my point about you not being able to handle micro-management properly; I tested it as Arcane last night and did just fine.


Also, as much as I dislike Fire not only am I capable of playing it but my guild requires I play the best spec for progression. You might want to do some more research into what that spec is.

[Deleted]

My main concern about arcane is that 4pT15 is stronger than 4pT16 so it seems that arcane will be stronger at the beginning of this tier but fire will win in the end (similar to this tier with frost -> fire|arcane). I really think 4pT16 should be changed but probably it won't be.

We still have 3 more weeks to consider now, patch comes 10th of september and not on the 27th
Maybe then the numbers will also be better than they are now... and its good to already have the first number pass

source?

[Magemaer]

Paragons - No. Just, no. It's about ST burst and/or what Single Target DPS you gain from multi-dotting. Arcane wins here.

So...do you really believe you gain single target dps by using gcds to multidot bosses that will get healed? Is that NT cleave stronger than just...you know, cast something on your priority target?

This is amusing.

[Deleted]

I'll be going 9762 Haste arcane - LB/Frost armour on primarily ST fights, NT/Mage armour on multitarget fights.

If there is a fight where I need to move around the room as much as Horridon or there is some add to keep away I'll go frost for that. The larger rune range should help for anything like Tortos where I play Incanter's ward arcane right now.

For arcane which will be the best bombs to use on the fights, and why (I've not gone PTR)

Here is what I've been playing ToT:

Jin Rokh - LB Arcane
Horridon - Frost
Council - NT Arcane
Tortos - NT Arcane (Ward)
Meg - LB Arcane
Ji-Kun - LB Arcane
Durumu (N) LB Arcane
Primordius (N)- LB Arcane (Normal, cheesing it); NT Arcane (Non cheese)
Dark Animus (N) - Normal LB Arcane
Iron Qon (Hc)- LB Arcane
Twins - Hc NT Arcane
Lei Shen (N) LB Arcane

[zephid]

I'll be staying as fire from the start. I guess there is a possibility that I'll switch after I've gotten a feel for the "new" fire.

[Rethys]

Should we really favor fire in a cleave situation in 5.4, given the combustion nerfs? Would Arcane's consistent Arcane Barrage and Mastery-boosted NT cleave edge out?

[Kendeura]

It depends on your strat. If you're gonna keep Korven the Prime for a while (which you should), fire cleave is the best as well as cleaving down the parasites, blood slimes and kunchongs.

Arcane has the best AoE overall though, not to mention the most sustainable.

[Deleted]

So...do you really believe you gain single target dps by using gcds to multidot bosses that will get healed? Is that NT cleave stronger than just...you know, cast something on your priority target?

This is amusing.

Coming from someone who doesn't believe that Frost Armor is better than Mage Armor for Arcane Single Target is even more amusing.

[Magemaer]

Coming from someone who doesn't believe that Frost Armor is better than Mage Armor for Arcane Single Target is even more amusing.

"Mastery>Haste>Crit, don't believe these wild theories about different armors and builds lol" -Vykina

"Just a tip to all btw, ignore all the randoms on other forums saying Arcane is miles ahead of Fire, it's false " -Vykina

You're that random. Keep multidotting Paragons ftw.

PS: ScrubBusted

[Therec]

Going fire

Already at 50% crit and there isnt a huge difference between fire and arcane. Not going to be a lootwhore (like locks were in ToT) and collect multiple sets of gear. If theres a fight i must play arcane for then Ill just reforge.

[Deleted]

"Mastery>Haste>Crit, don't believe these wild theories about different armors and builds lol" -Vykina

"Just a tip to all btw, ignore all the randoms on other forums saying Arcane is miles ahead of Fire, it's false " -Vykina

You're that random. Keep multidotting Paragons ftw.

Point out where I said Arcane was miles ahead of Fire, at any point? As I recall I simply called into question (on certain fights, mind you) why Tyralis thought Fire was the best spec to play when my experience has shown different results?
Apart from Spoils and to an extent, Galakras, Fire performs fine (notice how I also say Arcane performs fine), I just think Arcane performs better.

Also, just because Mastery>Haste>Crit (which is true) doesn't mean you don't use Frost Armor instead of Mage Armor. As I stated, Mage Armor is static 3K Mastery regardless of your current Mastery value, Frost Armor is multiplicative therefore you actually gain more Mastery by going Frost Armor as you're "wasting" less stats.

[Mortaeron]

I'm thinking frost but it depends on the numbers' output mostly. I'm gonna be sad if frost does nothing compared to the other two specs...

[Pandacally]

source?

Gamescon interview for a german fanbase site. Did come quite as a surprise.

[zandiy]

most likely fire

[pkm]

Im gonna start with fire but will try some frost on the side.

[voltaa]

"Mastery>Haste>Crit, don't believe these wild theories about different armors and builds lol" -Vykina

"Just a tip to all btw, ignore all the randoms on other forums saying Arcane is miles ahead of Fire, it's false " -Vykina

You're that random. Keep multidotting Paragons ftw.

PS: ScrubBusted

So you are saying you are going to blindly agree with vykina and blindly disagree with those who actually played arcane this patch just because he is vykina?

While I agree that arcane isn't "miles ahead" of fire on the ptr it is very strong right now and has it's strengths, especially for fights with lots of adds and lots of cleave.

And getting two NTs out on secondary targets to cleave the first is as strong as having two NTs on your primary target, and with the amount of damage our bombs do, this is worth it.