Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Brusalk]

How is that? The identity of a dot spec is that the dots do a large bulk of the damage which isn't the case for Destro at all and a change that increases the resource generated through the dot tick rather than the damage of the dot tick doesn't drastically change the damage distribution. It's a lot like an Assassination Rogue's Rupture which does a minuscule amount of damage however the venomous wounds damage and energy regen makes Rupture worth keeping up at all costs

Immolate is already worth casting in a lot of situations. Further buffing Immolate only pushes the spec that further towards the DoT-focused end of the spectrum, and can result in situations where we lose our ability to do quick switch burst damage because we have too much damage/ember generation inside of Immolate. (A problem Subtlety has in spades)

[Jetjaguar]

Immolate is already worth casting in a lot of situations. Further buffing Immolate only pushes the spec that further towards the DoT-focused end of the spectrum, and can result in situations where we lose our ability to do quick switch burst damage because we have too much damage/ember generation inside of Immolate. (A problem Subtlety has in spades)

I dont necessarily agree because the resource is being built on yourself, not the target so if you're dpsing a main target and you have to make a quick switch you still have the resources you built up beforehand to do the same burst you can now. If you need to cast an immolate on the burst target, then it isn't really a burst target. Debuffs matter more to subtelty than destro.

[Brusalk]

I dont necessarily agree because the resource is being built on yourself, not the target so if you're dpsing a main target and you have to make a quick switch you still have the resources you built up beforehand to do the same burst you can now. If you need to cast an immolate on the burst target, then it isn't really a burst target. Debuffs matter more to subtelty than destro.

I suppose i should elaborate.

Immolate is already, on live, worth casting on a target if it'll be alive for about 3 ticks. If you suddenly increase the ember gen that substantially, it'll have to be one of the first things you cast on any target, and that feels like a DoT spec more than a Nuke spec to me.

[Hatelocker]

I dont necessarily agree because the resource is being built on yourself, not the target so if you're dpsing a main target and you have to make a quick switch you still have the resources you built up beforehand to do the same burst you can now. If you need to cast an immolate on the burst target, then it isn't really a burst target. Debuffs matter more to subtelty than destro.

While your right, if they balance us around our dot damage that means they aren't buffing our ember consumers. That would mean even though the embers stay on us when we do swap to a burst target our burst would just not be as good. However, even without buffs we are one of the best at it in the game so I have a hard time seeing that ever being an issue for destruction. It's the reason people go destruction for ra-den, at least for progression, as the only damage that really matters on that fight is the balls which is a very short burst window.

[Jetjaguar]

I suppose i should elaborate.

Immolate is already, on live, worth casting on a target if it'll be alive for about 3 ticks. If you suddenly increase the ember gen that substantially, it'll have to be one of the first things you cast on any target, and that feels like a DoT spec more than a Nuke spec to me.

Well, almost every dps spec in this game has to put up some sort of debuff before inflicting burst damage so I'm not sure what you expect. Destruction's identity since BC (fire destruction, anyway) has always been about setting up with immolate, even for burst.

While your right, if they balance us around our dot damage that means they aren't buffing our ember consumers. That would mean even though the embers stay on us when we do swap to a burst target our burst would just not be as good.

The whole argument is around buffing immolate's ember regeneration, not immolate's damage. Ember consumer damage from live to 5.4 isn't going to change and on live ember consumer burst is very good so I don't understand what the problem is.

[junn]

Are there not comps that own the leader boards every season..?

Of course, just calling it now that its going to be a top spec. Find yourself a dk (or a shadow priest or a survival hunter) and a healer now for the coming season!

[Brusalk]

Well, almost every dps spec in this game has to put up some sort of debuff before inflicting burst damage so I'm not sure what you expect. Destruction's identity since BC (fire destruction, anyway) has always been about setting up with immolate, even for burst.



The whole argument is around buffing immolate's ember regeneration, not immolate's damage. Ember consumer damage from live to 5.4 isn't going to change and on live ember consumer burst is very good so I don't understand what the problem is.

Warlocks, and Destro in particular, are completely different spec-wise post MoP. Any sort of comparison made between the two is completely pointless and should fall into the realm of comparing between classes. Destruction in MoP is a nuke focused, controlled burst spec.

I'm referring to mechanics with my concerns here, not balancing. Buffing Immolate that substantially doesn't really fit in with what I would consider (and the spec's been following thus far) to be the identity of the spec.

[junn]

There is room to buff chaos bolt in pvp. During cd's CB hits for ~ 80k, and is a minimum of a 1.9s cast. I think as long as that # stays under 100k it wont cause pvp balance issues.

[Hellfury]

Guys, my guild started to test stuff on PTR since 25man have started. Everyone were saying in this very thread how OPs we were and we would be nerfed, but I dont see it, Iam having reall trouble to even be top 15 with either aff/demo, I been testing new trinkets and new tier 4set. Rogues, hunters and shamans are stealing the show, especially rogues.

The few bosses I tried weren't that lock friendly thou.

[Jetjaguar]

Warlocks, and Destro in particular, are completely different spec-wise post MoP. Any sort of comparison made between the two is completely pointless and should fall into the realm of comparing between classes. Destruction in MoP is a nuke focused, controlled burst spec.

I'm referring to mechanics with my concerns here, not balancing. Buffing Immolate that substantially doesn't really fit in with what I would consider (and the spec's been following thus far) to be the identity of the spec.

Destruction has ALWAYS been nuke focused but that doesn't mean the spec doesn't need Immolate as the set up spell the same way flame shock is needed for elemental shamans. A set up debuff doesn't make a spec a dot class and buffing immolate's ember regen doesn't change how the spec plays nor does it change how the spec feels. You're still setting up your damage with an initial immolate cast. That's how it's been for 7 years. It is still like that on live.

[Grizelda]

Well, almost every dps spec in this game has to put up some sort of debuff before inflicting burst damage so I'm not sure what you expect. Destruction's identity since BC (fire destruction, anyway) has always been about setting up with immolate, even for burst.

Unlinking (that's a word right?) Immolate damage from Incinerate and Conflagrate was one of the best things they did.

I think that however they buff us (assuming they do) it's important to keep the correct ratios of damage from Immolate, Conflag, Incin, Chaosbolt and Shadowburn.

I think Destro was just nuke focused compared to Aff and Demo (not counting pet swaping, gear swapping, MWC hell). Now it's ACTUALLY a nuke spec.

[Jetjaguar]

Unlinking (that's a word right?) Immolate damage from Incinerate and Conflagrate was one of the best things they did.

I think that however they buff us (assuming they do) it's important to keep the correct ratios between damage from Immolate, Conflag, Incin, Chaosbolt and Shadowburn.

I think unliking Immolate damage from incinerate and conflagrate was a good idea as well, but the spec is still heavily linked to the spell like it has always been. Buffing Immolate to regen embers on every tick doesn't change your playstyle. On live, you still put it on as many things as you can that will live long enough and a proposed change like that wouldn't make your playstyle any different.

[MrHappy]

It seems that until you have heroic gear 2pc+2pc is stronger for Demonology come 5.4.

Did some testing on PTR and I will most likely roll Mastery> Crit >=Haste builds as Destro MS Demo OS so i won't have to change gear too much and be demo for 3/4 target fights.

@Brutalisk

The immolation buff was probably to compensate for the RoF "nerf" so that on AoE fights the dots would be stronger to synergize with the 5.4 Manaroth's

[Grizelda]

Hell's I'm all for it. It would make multi-dotting more interesting. Throw our cleave abilities on top of that? Sweet.

In all this talk I haven't seen any feedback on the new Glyph of Havoc. I'm sure it will be on a fight by fight basis but does anyone have any PTR feedback on it?

@Mr. Happy: I don't think FnB Immolate is affected by the new MF.




Yet

[Deleted]

Hah I had forgotten about MF. Still nearly useless for Destro, guess it will go live this way...

Destro TODO list :

- MF is useless for Destro
- 2pT16 is laughable. I mean really, they still haven't changed that "thing" ? :/
- Legendary Meta is bad
- Single/multitarget DPS was nerfed heavily through RoF, although it was already among the worst specs on live. Almost no compensation for this nerf (Immo buff is ~1% single) while it should have been buffed in the first place.

Come on Blizzard you still have two weeks !

[Brusalk]

Hah I had forgotten about MF. Still nearly useless for Destro, guess it will go live this way...

I'm thinking it's time we started voicing our concerns loudly to the dev team, considering we've yet to see anything, and up till today would've gone live next Tuesday.

[Grizelda]

I don't even think we are on their radar.

[Brusalk]

Destruction has ALWAYS been nuke focused but that doesn't mean the spec doesn't need Immolate as the set up spell the same way flame shock is needed for elemental shamans. A set up debuff doesn't make a spec a dot class and buffing immolate's ember regen doesn't change how the spec plays nor does it change how the spec feels. You're still setting up your damage with an initial immolate cast. That's how it's been for 7 years. It is still like that on live.

I'm not intending to (and I hope I didn't) claim that any buffing of Immolate suddenly makes Destro a DoT spec. I'm just saying that pushing the spec towards that direction (and only in that direction) is against what the design of the spec is and has been since MoP release.

How often do you cast Immolate on a short-lived add on live? Causing Immo to gen embers just like Incinerate/Conflagrate means you have to cast it on any add that pops up, because as long as it ticks twice you'll get more out of it than that Incinerate/Conflag you were thinking of casting.

[ZaneBusby]

I'm not intending to (and I hope I didn't) claim that any buffing of Immolate suddenly makes Destro a DoT spec. I'm just saying that pushing the spec towards that direction (and only in that direction) is against what the design of the spec is and has been since MoP release.

How often do you cast Immolate on a short-lived add on live? Causing Immo to gen embers just like Incinerate/Conflagrate means you have to cast it on any add that pops up, because as long as it ticks twice you'll get more out of it than that Incinerate/Conflag you were thinking of casting.

While I do agree with you, and see what you're getting at, I still don't think it would be all that much of an issue. Chances are if an add really needs to be burst down à la Loa Spirit on council, you would burst it down, not worry about getting maximum embers off it. If it weren't something to be genuinely burst down, and was an add that would be present for upwards of 10 seconds, you would use immolate on it normally anyway. I suppose if you're concerned about an add with a lifespan of around 8 seconds, and reasonably low health, then... Well you've got me. But those are far and few between.

And at this point, unless Blizz give us buffs to ember generation all over the show, I can't think of any other way to fix AoE (if it really is as broken as Zumzum says), without having some kind of balance implications for single target and/or PvP. Or if they choose to put the damage into ember consumers instead, as you stated they said would be their goal for the RoF nerfs a couple of posts back, then it means our AoE stays sitting in the gutter. I mean there probably IS a way to fix it, but I'm not a Blizz Dev, and don't have time to sit down and work out all of the maths, and adding ember generation to immolate just seems to make the most sense to me, and would be the simplest fix too.

Also just poking fun at you a little here, but I kinda feel like your concerns of encouraging the use of immolate are a weeee bit irrelevant at the moment, considering we've been using an AoE spell in our single target rotation for 1/2 of this entire expansion... And you're worrying because you think it'd cause interesting spell priority decisions in certain situations? :P

[Brusalk]

While I do agree with you, and see what you're getting at, I still don't think it would be all that much of an issue. Chances are if an add really needs to be burst down à la Loa Spirit on council, you would burst it down, not worry about getting maximum embers off it. If it weren't something to be genuinely burst down, and was an add that would be present for upwards of 10 seconds, you would use immolate on it normally anyway. I suppose if you're concerned about an add with a lifespan of around 8 seconds, and reasonably low health, then... Well you've got me. But those are far and few between.

And at this point, unless Blizz give us buffs to ember generation all over the show, I can't think of any other way to fix AoE (if it really is as broken as Zumzum says), without having some kind of balance implications for single target and/or PvP. Or if they choose to put the damage into ember consumers instead, as you stated they said would be their goal for the RoF nerfs a couple of posts back, then it means our AoE stays sitting in the gutter. I mean there probably IS a way to fix it, but I'm not a Blizz Dev, and don't have time to sit down and work out all of the maths, and adding ember generation to immolate just seems to make the most sense to me, and would be the simplest fix too.

Also just poking fun at you a little here, but I kinda feel like your concerns of encouraging the use of immolate are a weeee bit irrelevant at the moment, considering we've been using an AoE spell in our single target rotation for 1/2 of this entire expansion... And you're worrying because you think it'd cause interesting spell priority decisions in certain situations? :P

I don't really think that buffing Immolate in that way will cause any sort of long lasting issue. I just don't feel like it really "fits" the identity of the spec is all.

(I wasn't exactly a fan of RoF in the single target rotation either as you might have guessed by now, and I'm glad that it's gone [Assuming they compensate for it. If they don't, then GIEF IT BAK])