LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Azrile]

Wrong.
After heroic dungeons, if you wanna count LFR and flex. It'd be
Max lvl -> Heroic dungs -> Normal Raid -> Able to start heroics, Do Flex + LFR for set bonuses + Trinkets -> Next heroic raid repeat, run LFR + Flex for Trinks/Tier -> Final heroic raid also run LFR + Flex for trinkets / Tier
Ie for next tier 540 is flex. Heroic TF 2/2 is 549.
Means flex would be pretty needed there.
So.. nope

Hardcore guilds were clearing Normal in Blues, and Heroic bosses before LFR was even open. If you aren´t hardcore, then stop pretending to be. There is no reason to do those extra LFRs and crap unless you want to. You want to eliminate the ability to do LFR simply because you do not want to do it.. then DO NOT DO IT.. but don´t take away that option for players that want to be hardcore.

[Deleted]

They play the game the way they want, just as you and others do. I myself and others have came up with solutions that prevent Flex being a tool for normal/Heroic, and won't hurt anyone else other than lootgoblins, but it seems to have fallen on (not technically) deaf ears. My 502 trinket was a ~1800-1900 DPS upgrade over my 530 VP trinket, ~2800 after VP upgrades. 1800 for 28 ilvl's, 2800 for 20. Sometimes trinkets are just ridiculous. And SoO's trinkets are even more powerful than current ones, well maybe not the Lei Shen one for Locks, I'm not too sure on their trinkets/etc.

I agree with this. The trinkets in SoO that reduces the CD on important abilities or dps CD's are going to be very OP. If you're a 25 man Heroic raider and have HTF gear 2/2 upgraded it will be 9 ilvl lower and for 10 man without TF it will be 3 ilvl lower. Everyone should know by now, that the ilvl isn't always an indication of a specific item. And even though me and my guildies are decked in Heroic gear, we're all gonna do whatever we can to obtain the new SoO trinkets - even if that means running Flex on our mains.

If you have seen the OP set bonus on the Tier gear, you'll wanna get that as well - even if that means going Flex on your main. I'm not so sure about LFR, since that might actually cost too much in raw stats compared to what you get. Or if the upgrade in dps is extremely low, then it might not be worth pushing our raiders to run 3 modes the first weeks of progression.

And yes, we all play the game the way we like. I'm going to raid on 2 characters next Tier (sorta did this Tier as well though). 2 runs with half mains and half alts to make sure we get as much gear as possible on our mains and then Flex for an extra chance at getting Tier and trinkets. I hate feeling "forced" to do that, at the same time it's something my guildies and I choose.

That being said, I truly hope that Blizz will get rid of LFR in favor of Flex. I'm sure it will be much better for the community as a whole and people will actually have to play their character rather than being afk in LFR and still get loot. It will hopefully make it easier for new players or returning players to learn or catch up and damn I wish Flex had been implemented in stead of LFR.

[Scathbais]

Yes and no. While right now, if you are in full HTF double upgraded gear you probably won't be looking at LFR much in 5.4 (depending on the 4pc/op trinkets I guess) you will next expansion. Anyone who is serious about progression is going to raid as much as possible to replace dungeon blues with much desired bonuses. Sure, no one makes you log into WoW, no one makes you read how to play, no one makes you prepare for raids with flasks, potions, food buffs. But why wouldn't you? Surely you would want to give you guild every edge you can personally contribute you to? I mean, there are 24 other people relying on you not to be a shit bag. Force? No. Expected? Sure, why not expect raiders to put in equal time and effort.

Not sure what your point is here? Are you for or against being able to raid the same content 3 times per week?

It is only a benefit as far as I can see and your arguments support it as a benefit.

If you are a normal or heroic raider:
1) Use Flex and LFR to fill in missing gear upgrades or to get your tier bonuses faster
2) Once you have better than flex gear, you can concentrate solely on Normals/Heroics
3) Use flex to fool around with your guildies/friends or to gear an alt.

If you are not a normal or heroic raider:
1) Use lfr to kill that idiot Garrosh and pick up some gear while you are at it
2) Do some Flex or Normal raids as your ability to get into pugs/skill level dictates.

So what exactly is the problem here?

[Yizu]

Im pretty sure 4 modes is not permanent. They are adding flex this tier as a separate mode to test it. They are prolly gonna remove lfr or implement flex on normal modes when they remove it.

[nekobaka]

Im pretty sure 4 modes is not permanent. They are adding flex this tier as a separate mode to test it. They are prolly gonna remove lfr or implement flex on normal modes when they remove it.

There was mentioning that the Flex technology might get applied to normal if the balancing works out with no mention of the removal of current Flex which is aimed at PuGs, and friends and family type of casual guilds. Right now the developers want to keep normal mode a organized guild only kind of thing which is still silly given that there are PuGs right now that do normal and are even more progressed then some guilds just as they was back in WotLK when the raids was claimed to be designed for organized guilds already.

Things can still change and the release of a feature at the end of the expansion allows developers to gather feedback and make changes both big and small in the coming expansion.

[Nato]

I think flex is pretty close to LFR. I reckon get rid of LFR and have flex

[goltnum9]

Im pretty sure 4 modes is not permanent. They are adding flex this tier as a separate mode to test it. They are prolly gonna remove lfr or implement flex on normal modes when they remove it.

agreed. its a wise choise also

[hpa]

I like the idea of flex raids but i must admit it would make sense if LFR and Flex shared lockout like normal and heroic does.

[Kaleredar]

I think flex is pretty close to LFR. I reckon get rid of LFR and have flex

I'm doubtful LFR is going anywhere.


I think it more probable that they would remove normal mode and instate flex instead (perhaps bumping up the difficulty in the process...) I seem to recall GC or one of them musing that this is an avenue they might take.



At any rate, I'm less "irked" by the thought of "hardcores" having to run X number of difficulties to do something they put on themselves than I am people having to raid through two identical difficulties to adequately gear up for normals.

If anything, they should do normal max level dungeons < LFR AND a non LFG, difficult Heroic dungeons < Flex <= Normal raid < Heroic raids.

That way, LFR is available for 1) gear 2) the ability to see content 3) funzies while an actual CHALLENGING avenue exists for non-raiding individuals to gear up as well. Though I suppose we'll have to see if Flex mode can help "fill" the latter gap.

[Deleted]

Flex should have been a feature for each difficulty level, not a difficulty level in itself.
Three difficulty levels is way enough. HCs too hard ? Go normals. Stilll too hard ? drink beer and LFR. (if thats still too hard, uninstall plz)

If LFR, Normal and HCs, whether 10 or 25 man had the possibility to go flex, it would get a LOT more people raiding. Whether it be the guys that are benched for progress, the trials benched because we have 11/25 raiders online already, or the alt we want to carry to gear for next tier.
This would have specifically interesting for 25 man guilds, who have been gutted by the easyness of 10man content ( both in terms of organisation and actual difficulty, but lets not get into this here...).

But nooooo god forbid we help the mode that needs it the most. lets create a new difficulty level :
>> WHAT IF Flex is too hard ? We create another mode? What if its too easy ? We create another mode as well ?

People asking for normals to be nerfed .... jeez. There is an easier difficulty level already in place yknow? To see the content etc.... But you dont like playing with others, right? Where does this stop? You also maybe want all raid bufffs in flex, so you can run with any comp, kill anythingm and feel like you've achieved something/teamwork?!? ... i dont agree you should succeed in this game if you are playing with your balls at the same time (i am talking footballs here of course).

You couldnt finish mario on snes with one hand could you? You couldnt finish the last level of star fox on snes if you were drunk (i wasnt of age though ;P!). You can't progress in time crisis arcade if you have shit footwork. This is how games are played! You start getting bashed in the face, you get better, overcome the obstacle, and end up stronger on the other side! Games are supposed to make you progress, and instill those values of effort / reward (this is the psychological basis of 99% of games). WoW has, in the curent and past expansion, actualy allowed the player base to regress greatly in skill, while keeping the same rewards - why is that ??

EDIT : Stop saying remove LFR. I know its the worst kind of content both in training people to raid, and encouraging them to raid, but it's not going anywhere. Blizzard considers it a success because people use it (which took numbers from the normal scene, and amounted to a massive loss of skills in the game, and made recruitment for normal / heroic guilds a lot harder.

[Deleted]

Flex should have been a feature for each difficulty level, not a difficulty level in itself.
Three difficulty levels is way enough. HCs too hard ? Go normals. Stilll too hard ? drink beer and LFR. (if thats still too hard, uninstall plz)

Normals are incredibly overtuned.

If LFR, Normal and HCs, whether 10 or 25 man had the possibility to go flex, it would get a LOT more people raiding. Whether it be the guys that are benched for progress, the trials benched because we have 11/25 raiders online already, or the alt we want to carry to gear for next tier.
This would have specifically interesting for 25 man guilds, who have been gutted by the easyness of 10man content ( both in terms of organisation and actual difficulty, but lets not get into this here...).

10 mans are as hard as 25 man as far as gameplay is concerned according to blizzard, but easier to organise. This means that only an idiot or someone with very high stress tolerance would raid lead 25 man. But ye, lets not do that here.

But nooooo god forbid we help the mode that needs it the most. lets create a new difficulty level :
>> WHAT IF Flex is too hard ? We create another mode? What if its too easy ? We create another mode as well ?

Remove heroic, detune normals, point out korean grindfest MMOs for the 3,000 or so people who won't like the change. Win.

People asking for normals to be nerfed .... jeez. There is an easier difficulty level already in place yknow? To see the content etc.... But you dont like playing with others, right? Where does this stop? You also maybe want all raid bufffs in flex, so you can run with any comp, kill anythingm and feel like you've achieved something/teamwork?!? ... i dont agree you should succeed in this game if you are playing with your balls at the same time (i am talking footballs here of course).

You couldnt finish mario on snes with one hand could you? You couldnt finish the last level of star fox on snes if you were drunk (i wasnt of age though ;P!). You can't progress in time crisis arcade if you have shit footwork. This is how games are played! You start getting bashed in the face, you get better, overcome the obstacle, and end up stronger on the other side! Games are supposed to make you progress, and instill those values of effort / reward (this is the psychological basis of 99% of games). WoW has, in the curent and past expansion, actualy allowed the player base to regress greatly in skill, while keeping the same rewards - why is that ??

It hasn't let the playerbase regress at all. The playerbase never could play in the first place, but before MOP the playerbase were largely only level 45 and still levelling, not raiding. Now blizzard wants the whole game to be about raiding, they have to make a raid system that actually lets the players they have be able to raid. Normals are way too difficult, and LFR doesn't build the communities that are the actual basis for all persistent online games of this nature.

EDIT : Stop saying remove LFR. I know its the worst kind of content both in training people to raid, and encouraging them to raid, but it's not going anywhere. Blizzard considers it a success because people use it (which took numbers from the normal scene, and amounted to a massive loss of skills in the game, and made recruitment for normal / heroic guilds a lot harder.

LFR allows blizzard to justify making raid content. Flexi will as well. Looking at it from a purely business point of view, they should have remvoed raids almost entirely and stuck in 15 more levelling zones, which took 4 weeks to grind through instead.

Flexi looks awesome, and tuned for the people who actually play wow. it's going to be great.

[Deleted]

Normals are incredibly overtuned.


10 mans are as hard as 25 man as far as gameplay is concerned according to blizzard, but easier to organise. This means that only an idiot or someone with very high stress tolerance would raid lead 25 man. But ye, lets not do that here.


Remove heroic, detune normals, point out korean grindfest MMOs for the 3,000 or so people who won't like the change. Win.


It hasn't let the playerbase regress at all. The playerbase never could play in the first place, but before MOP the playerbase were largely only level 45 and still levelling, not raiding. Now blizzard wants the whole game to be about raiding, they have to make a raid system that actually lets the players they have be able to raid. Normals are way too difficult, and LFR doesn't build the communities that are the actual basis for all persistent online games of this nature.


LFR allows blizzard to justify making raid content. Flexi will as well. Looking at it from a purely business point of view, they should have remvoed raids almost entirely and stuck in 15 more levelling zones, which took 4 weeks to grind through instead.

Flexi looks awesome, and tuned for the people who actually play wow. it's going to be great.

"Normals are incredibly overtuned' << sweeping statement. They are as easy as wotlk 10 man, if not easier. Even before they were nerfed 3 times! After after three nerfs, still too hard ?! this is now like wotlk 10 mans, with a 30% buff !
I think what you mean to say (correct me if im wrong, but this is the impression i get from our exchanges in the past) is that the content is incredibly overturned for the entire player base of WoW. On that point, I tend to agree. The average player is pretty bad, and not really interested in getting better. This is why LFR was implemented.

Didnt understand your second point sorry. I think you meant remove heroic mode, nerf normals even more, and make the game a grindfest of easy content ? I must have understood that wrong. Let me know.

The playerbase has regressed. Whether you want to see that or not, is your choice. 10 man players and some 25 man players went casual thanks to LFR (check raiding numbers pre and post LFR release) and this removed any sense of achievement/progress: join group, go AFK or just play badly, win. Why would you put more effort in if this is the model? There is no incentive, apart for the people who find LFR too easy, and actually want a challenge.

What do you mean you cant build a community in LFR? You can join with a group of 2, 10, 24, be on teamspeak together and have a laugh and meet more players. You are saying playing with less people (flex) will build more communities ? why would that be the case ?
Where you are wrong, is thinking that a tighter group will create more cohesion (is that the case when you join a LFD 5 man? Do you ever see those people again?). I've had more interactions with people during ONE LFR than with all the players ive grouped with in a LFD since the tool was released, just by explaining strats on Lei Shen / Horridon.

What builds strong links between people is overcoming obstacles together, the sense of accomplishment. What you are asking for, is to remove the hard modes, make everything killable while drunk, and somehow this will create more interactions between people? Why the heck would people interact if they don't need to in order to get loot ? (read: easiest path to success)

The argument you keep bashing is that the entire playerbase needs to see the raids if the devs are to continue developping them. That is simply false. Raid content has always been released regardless of this, because its the pinacle of the game. In fact, the best raids (quality) were designed when few people raided (AQ, Ulduar etc).
I understand the nature of your argument, but its just plain not true. Also, remember that casual players sub in and out. The players who raid heroic, have three accounts each are the ones making money for Blizzard. Its not the expac subbers. (read: the 20/80 rule). Its the same on poker sites: 80% of the money is made from the 20% top players. But lets overlook that, because neither you or i have numbers about the sources of revenue. Just speculation + theory.
Re : removing raids and adding levelling zones : Soooo no end game content? you level to 90 and nothing ? Sounds fun. Alt grindest forever? no thanks. You do realise most people hate levelling, and only do it for end game content ? (read: decline of alts with rep grinds, blizz having to increase XP by 30% to encourage alts etc)

Flexi, as a functionality, looks promising if its not gamable.
Flexi, as a difficulty, is just catering to people who do not want to put any sort of effort in at all, but think they are better than the LFR crowd. Which is the exact mentality the LFR crowd has. Strange ey ?

Its a slippery slope. If its too hard, people are gonna ask for another difficulty level, until we have a slider bar from one to ten at the start of each raid.

[Nobleshield]

"Normals are incredibly overtuned' << sweeping statement. They are as easy as wotlk 10 man, if not easier. Even before they were nerfed 3 times! After after three nerfs, still too hard ?! this is now like wotlk 10 mans, with a 30% buff !
I think what you mean to say (correct me if im wrong, but this is the impression i get from our exchanges in the past) is that the content is incredibly overturned for the entire player base of WoW. On that point, I tend to agree. The average player is pretty bad, and not really interested in getting better. This is why LFR was implemented.

You must have missed all the issues people have with LFR that Flex fixes, namely not having to do it with 24 strangers.

Didnt understand your second point sorry. I think you meant remove heroic mode, nerf normals even more, and make the game a grindfest of easy content ? I must have understood that wrong. Let me know.

I think he meant remove heroic modes, make normals easier and tell the 3k or so "super hardcore" people that like Heroic being super hard to fuck off to a Korean Grindfest MMO where everything is a challenge.

The playerbase has regressed. Whether you want to see that or not, is your choice. 10 man players and some 25 man players went casual thanks to LFR (check raiding numbers pre and post LFR release) and this removed any sense of achievement/progress: join group, go AFK or just play badly, win. Why you put more effort in if this is the model? There is no incentive, apart for the people who find LFR too easy, and actually want a challenge.
What do you mean you cant build a community in LFR? You can join as a a group of 2, 10, 24, and meet more players. You are saying playing with less people (flex) will build more communities ? u mad breh ?

LFR by its nature is a pug, and that's an issue for a lot of people. Flex fixes that issue by letting you group with who you want and not have as many mechanics removed; that is, Flex is going to be much closer to Normal mode than LFR and therefore suitable for practice, while LFR usually is not.

What builds strong links between people is overcoming obstacles together, the sense of accomplishment. What you are asking for, is to remove the hard modes, make everything killable while drunk, and somehow this will create more interactions between people? Why the heck would people interact if they don't need to in order to get loot ? (read: easiest path to success)

No, what he's asking for is a normal mode that isn't soul-crushing to the majority of guilds. You can say that the playerbase has degenerated into bads all you'd like, but it seems that MOST of the playerbase is bad then, and like it or not that's the people that should get more things aimed at them. There were a LOT of guilds that basically got told to piss off in T14 and T15. Despite the belief that hard content makes you strive to finish it and look in awe at the people who do finish it, in reality hard content tends to get your people saying "Fuck it, who cares?" and stop trying, period. That's not good for ANYONE when folks would rather give up than try harder, because trying seems like a futile effort. How does the saying go? Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

The argument you keep bashing is that the entire playerbase needs to see the raids if the devs are to continue developping them. That is simply false. Raid content has always been released regardless of this, because its the pinacle of the game. In fact, the best raids (quality) were designed when few people raided (AQ, Ulduar etc).

Yet the devs have said it's hard to justify developing raids that only 1% of people get to see.

[Deleted]

You must have missed all the issues people have with LFR that Flex fixes, namely not having to do it with 24 strangers.

But, you don't even need to talk to them. They are not encroaching your experience, because, well, they are useless and could just die it wouldnt matter.
Why 24 ? In that case , youd also be doing flex with 9+ strangers. You can enter LFR with 15 friends and have a good time, but you dont like other people? and then go on and say it will build better communities ? Dat logic.

LFR by its nature is a pug, and that's an issue for a lot of people. Flex fixes that issue by letting you group with who you want and not have as many mechanics removed; that is, Flex is going to be much closer to Normal mode than LFR and therefore suitable for practice, while LFR usually is not.

Er;, Flex is by nature designed to pug an extra healer or whatnot.
LFR is not suited to practicing ?! dafaq ?

Yet the devs have said it's hard to justify developing raids that only 1% of people get to see.

Well, they have been for the past what 4-5 years? I wonder why.... maybe it's a case that some players play one week on normal, give up and unsub, when the more involved keep their sub active till the next expac ?
The fact that hardmodes have never been touched / removed supports this.
The addition of flex + LFR is just their catering to the lower end players. Id rather we level up the player base, not comfort them with soft plus toys for raid bosses, because if they start doing Flex + LFR, it will be really hard for them to enter heroics as the pace / skill floor is so much higher. Whereas a heroic player can always go casual / scale down in difficulty.

Really, im all for actually tough 5 man heroics like in Cata. Those were awesome, you came out of them really feeling you did it correctly, and are good at your job. Nowadays, I join for valour, touch my peniz and the boss dies from tank dps, no heals were needed. This is not a great experience, apart for my peniz.
For raids, keep normals as they are (stop nerfing them for gods sake, you have 10 man if you wanna go easy mode). If thats too hard, you already have another difficulty level, but you are unwilling to play it for reasons that contradict themselves

[Nobleshield]

Er;, Flex is by nature designed to pug an extra healer or whatnot.
LFR is not suited to practicing ?! dafaq ?

LFR isn't suited to practicing anything beyond the basics because usually you can ignore mechanics completely, or because they function very differently (e.g. Lei Shen's knockback from Fusion Slash on LFR barely does anything, but on normal you need to face the next platform to avoid being knocked off). Flex is shaping up to have all the mechanics from normal but nerfed, so you can practice parts of the fight you struggle on in normal, similar to how you could practice on normal for heroic in some cases (e.g. when my guild was progressing on Heroic Yor'sajh, after some attempts we would do the fight on normal and if we got an ooze combination from heroic, we'd let them all empower him to practice for heroic)

[Deleted]

ah practicing fight mechanics, ok i get that.
But it will be the same with Flex: the mechanics are absent or hit for a bit less / smaller knock back.

Will we also need a new mode to test the flex mechanics, like something just a tad harder than LFR ?

[Deleted]

"Normals are incredibly overtuned' << sweeping statement. They are as easy as wotlk 10 man, if not easier. Even before they were nerfed 3 times! After after three nerfs, still too hard ?! this is now like wotlk 10 mans, with a 30% buff !
I think what you mean to say (correct me if im wrong, but this is the impression i get from our exchanges in the past) is that the content is incredibly overturned for the entire player base of WoW. On that point, I tend to agree. The average player is pretty bad, and not really interested in getting better. This is why LFR was implemented.

Nope, they are incredibly overtuned. That's why we are getting flexi mode.

Didnt understand your second point sorry. I think you meant remove heroic mode, nerf normals even more, and make the game a grindfest of easy content ? I must have understood that wrong. Let me know.

I meant that if blizzard followed their most successful model as far as sub growth goes, they would make it so that 60% of the playerbase never got a max level toon again. Wow was at it's most popular when most players were level 45 or so. Raiding in general is a huge waste of money in such a scenario, and heroic raids pure extravagance.

The playerbase has regressed.

No, they haven't.

Whether you want to see that or not, is your choice. 10 man players and some 25 man players went casual thanks to LFR (check raiding numbers pre and post LFR release) and this removed any sense of achievement/progress: join group, go AFK or just play badly, win. Why would you put more effort in if this is the model? There is no incentive, apart for the people who find LFR too easy, and actually want a challenge.

Why give people a challenge is they don't actually want it?

What do you mean you cant build a community in LFR? You can join with a group of 2, 10, 24, be on teamspeak together and have a laugh and meet more players. You are saying playing with less people (flex) will build more communities ? why would that be the case ?
Where you are wrong, is thinking that a tighter group will create more cohesion (is that the case when you join a LFD 5 man? Do you ever see those people again?). I've had more interactions with people during ONE LFR than with all the players ive grouped with in a LFD since the tool was released, just by explaining strats on Lei Shen / Horridon.

I don't understand this series of questions and statements, sorry.

What builds strong links between people is overcoming obstacles together, the sense of accomplishment. What you are asking for, is to remove the hard modes, make everything killable while drunk, and somehow this will create more interactions between people? Why the heck would people interact if they don't need to in order to get loot ? (read: easiest path to success)

Why would people interact (over time) if they can't kill anything even if they team up? because normals are too hard, communities die or don't get born.

The argument you keep bashing is that the entire playerbase needs to see the raids if the devs are to continue developping them. That is simply false.

no, that's what blue has stated. They had to widen the raiding population because it was a shit return for their shareholders.

Raid content has always been released regardless of this, because its the pinacle of the game. In fact, the best raids (quality) were designed when few people raided (AQ, Ulduar etc).
I understand the nature of your argument, but its just plain not true. Also, remember that casual players sub in and out. The players who raid heroic, have three accounts each are the ones making money for Blizzard. Its not the expac subbers. (read: the 20/80 rule). Its the same on poker sites: 80% of the money is made from the 20% top players. But lets overlook that, because neither you or i have numbers about the sources of revenue. Just speculation + theory.
Re : removing raids and adding levelling zones : Soooo no end game content? you level to 90 and nothing ? Sounds fun. Alt grindest forever? no thanks. You do realise most people hate levelling, and only do it for end game content ? (read: decline of alts with rep grinds, blizz having to increase XP by 30% to encourage alts etc)

Flexi, as a functionality, looks promising if its not gamable.
Flexi, as a difficulty, is just catering to people who do not want to put any sort of effort in at all, but think they are better than the LFR crowd. Which is the exact mentality the LFR crowd has. Strange ey ?

Its a slippery slope. If its too hard, people are gonna ask for another difficulty level, until we have a slider bar from one to ten at the start of each raid.

I agree. Remove heroic raids, detune normals and add more levelling content if you want to maximise sub numbers (and customer satisfaction.)

Korean MMos are thattaway. Off you pop, no one will notice, no one will care.

[Spacepunch]

So I'm in a raiding guild where my raid leader doesn't want his players to have the most optimal gear that will help our progression? Gear is a nerf to content, the more gear you get the easier things become. I don't remember hearing someone say "We are going to lock our raid out on xxx final boss this week and skip a weeks worth of heroic gear because we don't want/need it".

Maybe he would say not to use flasks or food on progression attempts, which I've been in guilds that have said that (esp Heroic Rag attempts that didn't even reach p4). Did I still do it? Yes. Does that make me a try hard? I suppose, how dare I want to perform my role efficiently so I'm not wasting my guild mates time.

would prolly have more effect to just play better, than worry about a couple ilvl.

[Deleted]

Korean MMos are thattaway. Off you pop, no one will notice, no one will care.

And if you want to grind easy content forever, you can also go play Dora the Explorer Adventure Island (dont try the heroic mode questions, they are pretty hard). Now the girly arguments are over with, perhaps we can talk again ? :P

Once again, you are ignoring the fact that most people hate levelling (changes were even made to that extent).
If levelling is your thing, then by all means do it, you have loads of char slots and servers. But don't then come and tell the player base that content you dont play needs to be removed so you can have another levelling zone ...

[artem123]

Hardcore guilds were clearing Normal in Blues, and Heroic bosses before LFR was even open. If you aren´t hardcore, then stop pretending to be. There is no reason to do those extra LFRs and crap unless you want to. You want to eliminate the ability to do LFR simply because you do not want to do it.. then DO NOT DO IT.. but don´t take away that option for players that want to be hardcore.

erhm, you could still run LFR before they fully cleared heroics.
running LFR does not mean hardcore. But stuff being there that gives a extra little oomf people are going to take it. And quite needed to if you want to compete.