Resto changes and new things in 5.4

[napalm007]

It has been discussed. But there will always be different opinions on the subject, it gets tricky, as other factors come into play such as "feel", with quicker GCD's and casts for non-rejuv healing being a nice benefit to some. Also comp plays a big role, someone with lots of resto shamans can live with a little less spirit, or if you tend to overheal versus underheal it also has an impact on your spirit needs.

Also, another big factor is 10 man versus 25 man. 10 man healers will likely be able to use the 13K BP mush sooner than 25 man, due to less demand on overal rejuv casts.

All that said, I personally agree with you. While I do know for a fact that the 13K BP has higher potential TP, it is only in situations where you do not have mana issues. Where I make the separation is that during progression I find that there is no real situation where mana is not an issue (at least in 25s). You can always cast more rejuvs, use Genesis more to charge shrooms, etc.. etc.. So spirit becomes more important to me. On those kills where you lose one healer, or the raid takes more damage than 2 months later in farm, spirit is huge. Also, the point you made about gear is important, and one I have pointed out. From a raid gearing stand-point, Mastery/Spirit gear is far and away best for Resto Druids to soak up, and Haste/Spirit gear is better for Boomies and Monks to pick up.

In general, the point about not meeting 3043 is somewhat silly to me. I can get there in 6-7 pieces of haste/spirit gear currently, and in 5.4 we can easily get to 1-2 pieces. We would actually have to reforge UP to 3043 if we used all the gear available.

The reason why the 13k breakpoint will be better in 5.4 isn't necessarily because the 3k breakpoint will be more difficult to reach. Going from 3k to 13k gives a static boost to healing. Mastery, on the other hand, has DRs when you stack it. So, while 10k mastery might provide a 17% increase to healing in 5.3, it will likely go down to something like 15% in 5.4. In addition, the higher BP yields more throughput even WITHOUT taking the shorter GCDs and cast times into consideration. This means that, even if you have the same number of casts in a given amount of time from both breakpoints, the higher BP will still come out ahead. If you cast the same number of spells, it's impossible for one BP to use more mana than the other.

Now, in practice, the shorter GCD from nonrejuv spells is taken into consideration. If you chain cast, you're mana consumption will go up to a certain extent. However, with the higher BP, you do not need to chain cast to achieve more throughput than the lower BP. In other words, if you have mana problems with the 13k BP, pause for about a quarter of a second after the GCD is over every time you cast SM/WG/LB/dispel/RG. Your mana consumption will go down back to what it would be with the 3k BP, and you'll still be able to do more healing than you would with the 3k BP if you were chain casting. If you can't do that, then that's a playstyle issue and not a gearing issue.

Finally, having enough spirit should not be an issue in 5.4, even if you go for the higher BP. At current levels, you can both reach the 13k BP and still have enough secondary stats to get you to 12-13k spirit. That number will be even higher in 5.4.

[insanedruid]

The reason why the 13k breakpoint will be better in 5.4 isn't necessarily because the 3k breakpoint will be more difficult to reach. Going from 3k to 13k gives a static boost to healing. Mastery, on the other hand, has DRs when you stack it. So, while 10k mastery might provide a 17% increase to healing in 5.3, it will likely go down to something like 15% in 5.4. In addition, the higher BP yields more throughput even WITHOUT taking the shorter GCDs and cast times into consideration. This means that, even if you have the same number of casts in a given amount of time from both breakpoints, the higher BP will still come out ahead. If you cast the same number of spells, it's impossible for one BP to use more mana than the other.

Now, in practice, the shorter GCD from nonrejuv spells is taken into consideration. If you chain cast, you're mana consumption will go up to a certain extent. However, with the higher BP, you do not need to chain cast to achieve more throughput than the lower BP. In other words, if you have mana problems with the 13k BP, pause for about a quarter of a second after the GCD is over every time you cast SM/WG/LB/dispel/RG. Your mana consumption will go down back to what it would be with the 3k BP, and you'll still be able to do more healing than you would with the 3k BP if you were chain casting. If you can't do that, then that's a playstyle issue and not a gearing issue.

Finally, having enough spirit should not be an issue in 5.4, even if you go for the higher BP. At current levels, you can both reach the 13k BP and still have enough secondary stats to get you to 12-13k spirit. That number will be even higher in 5.4.

Well, chain casting most likely mean chain casting rejuv/RG. You can't chain cast lb(except in tree of life form). You can't chain cast WG, SM they are on CD.
And the 13K breakpoint doesn't give you stronger RG. So if you are gonna chain cast RG mana consumption will increase or your HPS will decrease.
The shorter GCD doesn't really help in practice except for LB spamming in tree of life.

And when you say mastery has "DR" when stacking it.
It's the same for haste. The reason we want haste is because haste scales better(lower rating for 1%) and we have lower haste than mastery when buffed.

[Mirri]

I suppose some people would think that the extra final tick of 13k rejuv is most likely going overheal anyway, unless you have continous massive aoe raid dmg for the entire fight which implies the entire raid is never at full health ever(unlikely) -so even if its a slightly larger throughput than 3K breakpoint mathematically, realistically it might not be the case when you are healing with other healers and not solo. Admittedly this issue is getting addressed slightly with the genesis spell, where we can burst people back up in a few seconds.

[napalm007]

Well, chain casting most likely mean chain casting rejuv/RG. You can't chain cast lb(except in tree of life form). You can't chain cast WG, SM they are on CD.
And the 13K breakpoint doesn't give you stronger RG. So if you are gonna chain cast RG mana consumption will increase or your HPS will decrease.
The shorter GCD doesn't really help in practice except for LB spamming in tree of life.

And when you say mastery has "DR" when stacking it.
It's the same for haste. The reason we want haste is because haste scales better(lower rating for 1%) and we have lower haste than mastery when buffed.

If you're chain casting, you're using a combination of spells you can spam and spells that have a CD. The shortened GCD of spells that have a CD (SM, WG, and LB to some extent) allows you to use more of your spammable spells in any given period of time. Let's say in a 15 second period you use LB, SM, WG, and WG once each. When combined, the shortened GCDs of the four spells add up about 1 second. If you were chain casting over those 15 seconds, you would be able to cast one additional RJ with the 13k breakpoint. This is why the 13k breakpoint feels like it's more mana intensive. However, like I said before, the 13k breakpoint is a throughput increase over the 3k breakpoint without considering shortened GCDs. So, even if you don't use that additional rejuv you get from the shortend GCDs, you'll still come out ahead.

Haste does DR, but since you'll always either have 3k or 13k, the throughput gain as a percentage will always remain the same when comparing those caps. Mastery, on the other hand, does not have caps. Going from 4k to 5k mastery will provide a larger throughput gain than going from 5k to 6k mastery.

I suppose some people would think that the extra final tick of 13k rejuv is most likely going overheal anyway, unless you have continous massive aoe raid dmg for the entire fight which implies the entire raid is never at full health ever(unlikely) -so even if its a slightly larger throughput than 3K breakpoint mathematically, realistically it might not be the case when you are healing with other healers and not solo. Admittedly this issue is getting addressed slightly with the genesis spell, where we can burst people back up in a few seconds.

The final tick of rejuv at 13k haste is just as likely to overheal as the final tick of rejuv at 3k haste; they both occur at the same time. Rejuv pretty much does the same amount of healing at both caps. But, with the 2 set bonus in 5.4, faster ticking rejuvs will give you more HT procs.

[Alzu]

Jumping onto another topic: How do you guys find druid atonement in practise? As I only heal our 10man guilds 3-heal fights, I can slack a bit at times and was figuring out a way to make DoC really viable.

I did some testing on the PTR (with int flask, 300 food and MotW) and got 45k dps just with Wrath spam. What else I did was refreshed LB always with regrowth and kept mushroom on the ground. I gemmed full intellect, favoring Mastery over haste. I used the new 4set (with Ra-den chest) and the int + spirit proc trinket (Dysmorphic blablabla.) 552 ilvl.

My stats were as follows:
Int: 32627
Spirit: 10236
Haste: 6655 (15.66%)
Crit: 2233 (18.45%)
Mastery: 9900 (30.63%)

Now I was just approximating and tested the numbers from the combat log: Efflorescence ticks 12k - 15k depending on procs, avg. probably 12.5k. LB ticked for 13k - 17k, avg. around 13.5k. Again, I'm just approximating things. Regrowth crit, around 150k with the glyph. With Efflo ticking on 3 players (no T15 2set) and Efflo and LB ticking every ~0.83 sec, it nets 56k hps from Efflo, 20k hps from LB, 45k hps from atonement, 5.7k hps from YG and 10k from Regrowth resulting in 137k hps by pressing 2 buttons, one of which only once every 14 seconds.

This was without 10% spell power or the 5% spell damage taken buff/debuff. Taking those into account, adding legendary cloak proc and estimating overheal to be ~40%, it would be around 100k HPS anyways. Sounds reasonable? Yes? No?

About mana: I noticed that in the ptr the 50% mana nerf isn't active so it is manawise a bit more consuming than it might seem. I was able to DPS for 16 minutes non-stop casting even though lucky procs kept me going for 6 extra minutes. With bad RNG I would've most likely been oom at 10 minutes. Didn't take logs but I had 18.6% uptime on my spirit trinket, 93% on both harmony and LB (dropped it a few times due to not concentrating at all times) and 9.5% on Lucidity (lege meta.)

Even after the nerf, my mana would've lasted for around six minutes, then just by playing slightly better, mana potions, using NS+HT to refresh LB and even using double regen trinkets (now amp trinket + regen trinket) it would really last for quite some time.

Thoughts on this? Any MS resto druids here who have thought of using DoC next patch?

[Deleted]

Being able to do 45k dps while maintaining 137k hps would be nice, but I feel that most fights won't really let you do that. Either because you have to move or because there is emergency spike damage to be healed. Maybe on an Ultraxion style fight it would work, but until then I'll probably stick to HotW.

I'm also not sure how sufficient 137k hps would be on a challenging fight. I'm already healing those numbers in 5.3, and from what I understand 5.4 has alot of raid damage going on.

[insanedruid]

If you're chain casting, you're using a combination of spells you can spam and spells that have a CD. The shortened GCD of spells that have a CD (SM, WG, and LB to some extent) allows you to use more of your spammable spells in any given period of time. Let's say in a 15 second period you use LB, SM, WG, and WG once each. When combined, the shortened GCDs of the four spells add up about 1 second. If you were chain casting over those 15 seconds, you would be able to cast one additional RJ with the 13k breakpoint. This is why the 13k breakpoint feels like it's more mana intensive. However, like I said before, the 13k breakpoint is a throughput increase over the 3k breakpoint without considering shortened GCDs. So, even if you don't use that additional rejuv you get from the shortend GCDs, you'll still come out ahead.

Haste does DR, but since you'll always either have 3k or 13k, the throughput gain as a percentage will always remain the same when comparing those caps. Mastery, on the other hand, does not have caps. Going from 4k to 5k mastery will provide a larger throughput gain than going from 5k to 6k mastery.


The final tick of rejuv at 13k haste is just as likely to overheal as the final tick of rejuv at 3k haste; they both occur at the same time. Rejuv pretty much does the same amount of healing at both caps. But, with the 2 set bonus in 5.4, faster ticking rejuvs will give you more HT procs.

Haste from 3K to 13K is 12.5% to 37.5%. It's not a 25% increase but more like a 22% increase. Which is the same case as mastery.
So either have 3K or 13K doesn't really matter.
So it's not always an HPS increase for going 13K haste breakpoint. And even it is, it is not because the "reason" you mentioned.

And for chain cast... You are right for that case. But my point is that in practice you don't do that quite often.

[Zeons]

I am very skeptical about the 13k BP build since it severely diminishes Tranquility, a very useful CD for progression. Additionally, the faster casts will most likely make me go crazy and I will end up spamming abilities I should not (regrowth).

Overall, I get the feeling that haste builds are interesting for farming content but not reliable enough for progression. i'll stick to mastery until I see how that build performs in SoO.

[Checksmix]

I am very skeptical about the 13k BP build since it severely diminishes Tranquility, a very useful CD for progression. Additionally, the faster casts will most likely make me go crazy and I will end up spamming abilities I should not (regrowth).

Overall, I get the feeling that haste builds are interesting for farming content but not reliable enough for progression. i'll stick to mastery until I see how that build performs in SoO.

Tranq works with haste. More ticks from the HoT portion. And lower cast time. Lower cast time = better bursting up the raid, and able to cast 2-3 spells afterwords.

[kendro1200]

Tranq works with haste. More ticks from the HoT portion. And lower cast time. Lower cast time = better bursting up the raid, and able to cast 2-3 spells afterwords.

Or it means you can get a couple rejuvs in before hand, a wild growth, toss out tranq, after tranq is done throw out another wg, and then pop shrooms during a 10-15 second raid heavy aoe phase. Then watch disc priest tears spill into cups to fuel the new shammy mana tides, because their shields can't keep up with all of the raw healing.
There are a handful of downsides to shooting for the high haste, but I don't see them holding too much water because of how effective rejuv overhealing is going to be next patch. Between cloak procs and mushrooms you'll just beg for rejuv overheal so that way you can wind up that super powered mushroom.

[Deleted]

There are a handful of downsides to shooting for the high haste, but I don't see them holding too much water because of how effective rejuv overhealing is going to be next patch. Between cloak procs and mushrooms you'll just beg for rejuv overheal so that way you can wind up that super powered mushroom.

They hold water for progression through SoO, because a haste build Rejuv doesn't become more powerful than a mastery build Rejuv until you reach around 19-20k secondary statpoints (13.5k haste, 6k mastery vs 3k haste 16.5k mastery). There are various other arguments (faster Tranq/Regrowth and more procs vs easier guild gearing and less spirit loss), but when it comes to Rejuvenation strength, you'll probably need at least full BiS normal SoO gear to make the haste build preferable.

[Checksmix]

Are people forgetting that Rej's GCD is already reduced to 1s through passive talents???

[napalm007]

They hold water for progression through SoO, because a haste build Rejuv doesn't become more powerful than a mastery build Rejuv until you reach around 19-20k secondary statpoints (13.5k haste, 6k mastery vs 3k haste 16.5k mastery). There are various other arguments (faster Tranq/Regrowth and more procs vs easier guild gearing and less spirit loss), but when it comes to Rejuvenation strength, you'll probably need at least full BiS normal SoO gear to make the haste build preferable.

The difference between 3.8k and 13.9k mastery is roughly 17%. Going from 3k to 13.1k haste increases Rejuv's healing by 16.67%. Even though the mastery heavy Rejuv is slightly stronger, the difference will really only account for roughly .1% of your total throughput. However, with the T15 4 set and the T16 2 set bonuses faster ticking Rejuvs are more favorable. One will make the final tick stronger, and the other will increase the rate at which you get fast/instant HTs.

[Sprucelee]

The reason why the 13k breakpoint will be better in 5.4 isn't necessarily because the 3k breakpoint will be more difficult to reach. Going from 3k to 13k gives a static boost to healing. Mastery, on the other hand, has DRs when you stack it. So, while 10k mastery might provide a 17% increase to healing in 5.3, it will likely go down to something like 15% in 5.4. In addition, the higher BP yields more throughput even WITHOUT taking the shorter GCDs and cast times into consideration. This means that, even if you have the same number of casts in a given amount of time from both breakpoints, the higher BP will still come out ahead. If you cast the same number of spells, it's impossible for one BP to use more mana than the other.

Now, in practice, the shorter GCD from nonrejuv spells is taken into consideration. If you chain cast, you're mana consumption will go up to a certain extent. However, with the higher BP, you do not need to chain cast to achieve more throughput than the lower BP. In other words, if you have mana problems with the 13k BP, pause for about a quarter of a second after the GCD is over every time you cast SM/WG/LB/dispel/RG. Your mana consumption will go down back to what it would be with the 3k BP, and you'll still be able to do more healing than you would with the 3k BP if you were chain casting. If you can't do that, then that's a playstyle issue and not a gearing issue.

Finally, having enough spirit should not be an issue in 5.4, even if you go for the higher BP. At current levels, you can both reach the 13k BP and still have enough secondary stats to get you to 12-13k spirit. That number will be even higher in 5.4.

At my level of progression, in 25s, 13k spirit is not enough, IMO.

FYI, I have been playing at 13k haste and 14k spirit for over a month, I am very much aware if its benefits AND shortcomings.

By going to 3043 I can go to 18k plus spirit. With the change to innervate, that is a massive amount of MP5. In my PTR testing, and progression experience on a Druid, that extra mana is huge for not only casting extra rejuvs, but now to abuse the Genesis in general with the legendary cloak and to charge shrooms.

[Bzl]

In regards to the haste build vs mastery build; I quickly ran a test, If I cast tranq with no mastery buff up, it pulsated on me for 40 781, and the hot element ticked for 20 823. Now 3 minutes later, I repeated the process again with Harmony active. Pulsated for 48 568, and hot healed for 24 798.

In other words; the mastery build will trastically amplify your tranquility spell in terms of througput. Now if you pair the tranq with SotF, you'll have the added benefit of a quickly casted tranq.

Looks like I'll be dipping a toe into the mastery build myself for SoO; The added benifit will be the fact that I'll be gearing quicker than others because I dont have to parrtake in the unevitable disputas over the rings, neck, and the likes, loaded with haste.

[Sprucelee]

Tranq works with haste. More ticks from the HoT portion. And lower cast time. Lower cast time = better bursting up the raid, and able to cast 2-3 spells afterwords.

The extra hot tick is far less than the loss of mastery. I calculated it at about a 13% net loss.

Also, a faster channel is not always better, in fact in ToT I found it worse on every single fight besides DA.

[napalm007]

In regards to the haste build vs mastery build; I quickly ran a test, If I cast tranq with no mastery buff up, it pulsated on me for 40 781, and the hot element ticked for 20 823. Now 3 minutes later, I repeated the process again with Harmony active. Pulsated for 48 568, and hot healed for 24 798.

In other words; the mastery build will trastically amplify your tranquility spell in terms of througput. Now if you pair the tranq with SotF, you'll have the added benefit of a quickly casted tranq.

Looks like I'll be dipping a toe into the mastery build myself for SoO; The added benifit will be the fact that I'll be gearing quicker than others because I dont have to parrtake in the unevitable disputas over the rings, neck, and the likes, loaded with haste.

Tranq's raw healing is really irrelevant. The most important metric to consider when you want big and bursty CDs is HPET (heals per effective time) and not HPS. While mastery increases tranq's HPS compared to the higher haste breakpoint, haste significantly increases tranq's HPET. In fact, when HPET is taken into consideration, haste scales much better than mastery with tranq. On average, a tranq cast with 13.1k haste will be stronger until the last tick of a tranq cast with 3k. In other words, if you want your tranq to be stronger in the first 7.11 seconds, go with haste. If you want your tranq to be stronger after 7.11 seconds (and weaker before that), go with mastery. If I'm using a CD specifically designed to heal up the raid as quickly as possible, I want it to be able to do just that. This is why timing SotF with tranq can be so good in certain situations. While it may not increase its total healing, it does increase its HPET.

If you're finding that your tranq is too fast and is doing a ton of overhealing, just wait until the raid has taken some damage before you use it. By doing this, you're effectively slowing it down so that it's comparable with a slower tranq. Just remember that, with a faster tranq, you can choose whether you want a fast tranq or a slow tranq by adjusting the timing of your channel (or not using it with SotF). If you have a slow tranq, on the other hand, there is nothing you can do to raise its HPET to the levels of a fast tranq should you ever need it.

[Sprucelee]

Your analysis of tranq is very shortsighted.

Very few mechanics need you to "heal the raid as quick as possible". It is much more common to have 10+ second mechanics that pulse the raid over the duration, or even longer. Lightning Storm, Discharge, Quills, Fist Smash, Rampage, etc. etc. As I said above, literally every mechanic in ToT is better fit by a slower (and significantly stronger) channel. The two fights that are exceptions are Horridon and Animus, but even then I think arguing that a 2 second quicker cast for significantly less total healing is "better" is a stretch. In 25s there is a 10+ million combined health pool. Having a tranq that heals for almost 15% less is just less efficient, as it never reaches that cap.

IMO one of the best part of tranqs is its smart healing. Having it last longer takes better advantage of that aspect during mechanics that last longer than its channel time. It will better cover those who drop low during it. This quality is also reduced with faster tranqs.

[cr4sher]

dysmorphic-samophlange-of-discontinuit Heroic Warforged -

how much it will give mp5? Or mana for a single accident

[Bzl]

Tranq's raw healing is really irrelevant.

No. Tranq's raw healing is most if not everything it has to offer. Its a glorified WG with channel time and copious amounts of raw healing.

Your analysis of tranq is very shortsighted.

Very few mechanics need you to "heal the raid as quick as possible". It is much more common to have 10+ second mechanics that pulse the raid over the duration, or even longer. Lightning Storm, Discharge, Quills, Fist Smash, Rampage, etc. etc. As I said above, literally every mechanic in ToT is better fit by a slower (and significantly stronger) channel. The two fights that are exceptions are Horridon and Animus, but even then I think arguing that a 2 second quicker cast for significantly less total healing is "better" is a stretch. In 25s there is a 10+ million combined health pool. Having a tranq that heals for almost 15% less is just less efficient, as it never reaches that cap.

IMO one of the best part of tranqs is its smart healing. Having it last longer takes better advantage of that aspect during mechanics that last longer than its channel time. It will better cover those who drop low during it. This quality is also reduced with faster tranqs.

I agree with most of what your saying, but would like to correct one of your numbers. We are not looking at a 15% loss here; my mastery at the moment is 19%, so my mastery tranq healed rightly 19% more than the nonmastery tranq. So if I go balls to the wall with mastery, i.e 13k+; I'm looking at a 35% stronger tranq. Now I have not subtracted the additional tick from the HoT that haste might grant, but I refuse to believe that one additional tick of the hot is going to pull the 35% number down much more than to 30%; so we're actually talking a very large difference.

There is only one encounter of entire ToT I can imagine you'd like a tranq as quick as possible, and that would be dark animus heroic, on the interrupting jolt. I dealt with this by just speccing into SotF and proccing it before casting tranq.

In general, SotF+tranq seems to sort the issue that might arrise if you are in desperate need of "HPET", but this does not seem to be a very large issue in the first place, considering the fact that theres only edge case scenarios in this game where your tranq benifits from being obscenely quick. It honestly seems like some of you are putting way too much value into haste in the tranq matter.