Lore Interview with Dave Kosak

[theturn]

A full occupation would probably be a bit much. Especially since the Alliance is supposedly approving of the Horde's new Warchief as someone they can work with. Maybe have a few guards around like what Thrall posted in UC after Wrathgate. But they would have to be non-combat or it would destroy world PvP.

I'm not talking about a full occupation, that's not what happened in either of those countries ultimately, I'm talking about it being a reminder for both sides in game of what happened. Would be a handful of alliance guards roaming the city as a constant reminder/insult to the horde of what happens when you let a madman rule and a reminder to the alliance of a victory earned.

[Aquamonkey]

I'm not talking about a full occupation, that's not what happened in either of those countries ultimately, I'm talking about it being a reminder for both sides in game of what happened. Would be a handful of alliance guards roaming the city as a constant reminder/insult to the horde of what happens when you let a madman rule and a reminder to the alliance of a victory earned.

I can only imagine how shitty that job would be for whatever Alliance soldier was stuck with that post. Especially the pressure to quell his/her own distaste for the Horde to prevent escalating things into another war, while also presumably receiving abuse (verbal or otherwise) from the people in Orgrimmar with animosity towards the Alliance.

It could be an interesting allegory to Western military presence in the Middle East. However, I doubt Blizzard would want to do that.

[Golden Yak]

Would be fun if the old gods are in fact a titan creation, which went totally haywire, and started spreading across the cosmos like a disease.

Eh. I prefer to think of them as the true counterparts to the Titans - creatures from another universe that embody that realm's pinnacle of power, who desire absolute chaos as opposed to the Titans plans of order.

Plus, we've found out recently that demons from the Burning Legion, specifically the Doomguard, were originally titan creations, or at least served the Titans and so were almost certainly created by them. It's enough that they and possibly other demons were Titan-made - makes me wonder how many of Sargeras' duties for the Pantheon involved cleaning up the messes they made.

I see Sargeras and the legion as the third power between the Titans and the Old Gods. Titans want order, Old Gods want chaos. Sargeras sees the Titans' order as an illusion, so he seeks to destroy everything, creating ultimate order through oblivion. Old Gods want to rule completely, rather than destroy utterly.

[theturn]

I can only imagine how shitty that job would be for whatever Alliance soldier was stuck with that post. Especially the pressure to quell his/her own distaste for the Horde to prevent escalating things into another war, while also presumably receiving abuse (verbal or otherwise) from the people in Orgrimmar with animosity towards the Alliance.

Exactly

/10char

[Aquamonkey]

Plus, we've found out recently that demons from the Burning Legion, specifically the Doomguard, were originally titan creations, or at least served the Titans and so were almost certainly created by them. It's enough that they and possibly other demons were Titan-made - makes me wonder how many of Sargeras' duties for the Pantheon involved cleaning up the messes they made.

The problem with that theory is that doomgards are of the Ered'ruin species, one of the species that put Sargeras into a depression in the first place (WoW Magazine). My headcanon goes that they were enslaved after Sargeras defeated and imprisoned them.

The [Ered'ruin, Infernals, Mo'arg, and Sayaad], an insidious race of devilish sorcerers, used their warlock magics to invade and enslave a number of worlds. The indigenous races of those worlds were mutated by the [demons'] malevolent powers and turned into demons themselves. Though Sargeras' nearly limitless powers were more than enough to defeat the vile [demons], he was greatly troubled by the creatures' corruption and all-consuming evil. Incapable of fathoming such depravity, the great Titan began to slip into a brooding depression. Despite his growing unease, Sargeras rid the universe of the warlocks by trapping them within a corner of the Twisting Nether. (edited to insert the retconned races in place of the Eredar)

[theturn]

Tides of War is not Wolfheart... And the Horde was massively defeated in Wolfheart too.

Maybe blizzard just assumes the horde players don't read and therefore won't get upset over stuff in the books.

[Dreknar20]

Then, garroah came into it, he touched every good aspect of the redeemed orcish society, and now so much of it is being killed off.. where the fuck does it leave the orcs?

very fucked up thats where

- - - Updated - - -

They should at the very least have an alliance occupation in Orgimar after 5.4.

Replacing internal oppression with outside oppression, sounds delightful
Do we get Siege/Liberation of Ogrimmar round 2?

[Golden Yak]

The problem with that theory is that doomgards are of the Ered'ruin species, one of the species that put Sargeras into a depression in the first place (WoW Magazine). My headcanon goes that they were enslaved after Sargeras defeated and imprisoned them.

Possibly. Although when discussing his race's 'origins,' a Doomguard says they were the Titans hounds, forever enslaved before Sargeras 'freed them.' No mention of being captured by Sargeras first.

But I think that could be exactly what causes Sargeras' depression - the Doomguard are created, employed by the Titans, but they're too twisted due to their affinity with dark magicks - they were intended to police the use of evil magic but grew to find it 'delicious.' So the Titans have Sargeras round them all up and lock them away, hence Sargeras getting bummed out - the Titans only made things worse by bringing an evil race into the universe.

Maybe that was the true source of Sargeras' hatred towards the Pantheon - the races they were creating in their quest for Order were going bad and becoming demons, and only making the universe a crappier place, hence Sargeras' plunge to the dark side and the beginning of his quest for total annihilation.

Could be part of it, at any rate.

[Aquamonkey]

Exactly

/10char

The problem with implementing it is how could Blizzard possibly include Alliance players? They can't really have Alliance players questing in Orgrimmar. And it's too diplomacy/political drama oriented to be a scenario.

[Deleted]

Just some random thoughts on the interview:

Firstly the faction bias here is pretty clear. The sad thing is Kosak doesn't even seem to be able to comprehend that there's a problem with the Alliance side of the story and this is coming from someone who mostly plays Horde. What do we want? What I'd like is an outcome for the Siege that makes sense; i.e The Alliance occupies Orgrimmar and Varian is stationed in Garrosh' place for one patch. Then he selects a new Warchief and we're left with a few 7th Legion guards and maybe Anduin hanging out in Orgrimmar. Also I'd like to see the Alliance victories represented in the game, even if just through phased quests at high level and not in the game world at large. That would be logical and it would be Fist-pumpy.

I think Kosak is being coy about Tirisfal. Previous answers to that question made it appear as though they had a lot more specifically planned for Tirisfal. I'm going with Tyr being under there. I mean next time you say Tirisfal blend the words a bit. Sounds a lot like Tyr's fall to me.

I would have liked Dalaran floating above Orgrimmar. The technical difficulties make no sense. They didn't have to move the physical in-game city above Orgrimmar, they could have just had an unreachable animation in the Skybox and maybe in a couple of fights that mana barrages would have been a mechanic. Jaina or Vereesa needn't even appear in person, just a little acknowledgment that the Alliance pretty much has it's own Deathstar would be nice. As for the "problem" that it wouldn't fit with the tone of the Dungeon kind of falls apart now that everyone is saying how they wanted Dalaran there.

Disappointed at the shaky answers regarding Draenei lore. Really hope we get some more lore for them next Xpac.

[Dreknar20]

The Alliance occupies Orgrimmar and Varian is stationed in Garrosh' place for one patch. Then he selects a new Warchief and we're left with a few 7th Legion guards and maybe Anduin hanging out in Orgrimmar.

something only Horde players will be looking at, with bitter resentment

- - - Updated - - -

I think Kosak is being coy about Tirisfal.

Its supposed to be coy. There are 'hint's and nothing more, so that if Blizzard ever decides to do something involving it they can, but it dsnt mean they will.
Thats why he wont give a definitive yes or no answer

[Deleted]

something only Horde players will be looking at, with bitter resentment

- - - Updated - - -


Its supposed to be coy. There are 'hint's and nothing more, so that if Blizzard ever decides to do something involving it they can, but it dsnt mean they will.
Thats why he wont give a definitive yes or no answer

A problem, but a workable one. Maybe even make Orgrimmar Alliance accessible in the Pre-xpac patch? Maybe have something else in Stormwind to mirror it?

- - - Updated - - -

Its supposed to be coy. There are 'hint's and nothing more, so that if Blizzard ever decides to do something involving it they can, but it dsnt mean they will.
Thats why he wont give a definitive yes or no answer

Yes, but in the past Blizzard have been more willing to give answers which look like they have some specific plan. "There's something there but it's not an Old God." But now it's "eh, we just needed a creepy place as a plot hook we don't really...".

[Aquamonkey]

Yes, but in the past Blizzard have been more willing to give answers which look like they have some specific plan. "There's something there but it's not an Old God." But now it's "eh, we just needed a creepy place as a plot hook we don't really...".

It's the same answer they gave for the empty/inaccessible zones. Just placeholders in case they need it.

[Krixooks]

Good interview and some good questions.

Metzen mentioned at launch that this expansion was the build up to the war - is this still the case and bigger conflict is coming? Or is this the actual war now?

Alliance fist pump moment - it was promised - what is it?

Where is Dalaran? where is it going?

I was disappointed as usual by Kosak's responses regarding Alliance themes, almost every new piece of Alliance lore is more about what is happening with the Horde. He presents answers like "the Horde is dissolving" which frankly we know nothing about nor does it concern us.

The Alliance "fist-bump" moment has come and gone apparently. I must have blinked.

Dalaran is unlikely to be changed in any way, Orgrimmar is unlikely to be changed in any way. Ah well...

[Blachshma]

Nice interview, but Dave totally misses the point about the Alliance, and it seems Blizzard as a whole either ignores the problem or just misses it, the later being even worse. The Alliance lore in MoP has been downright boring. Yeah, Jade Forest was cool, on par with the horde story, but ever since its all Garrosh Garrosh Garrosh, just like last xpac was all about Thrall Thrall Thrall. Now it seems like the final battle is all about Thrall vs. Garrosh, awesome - no Varian, no Jaina, no other Alliance leaders who have been totally ignored. The issue is that while the Alliance is "winning", its a boring faction, its only moving at the Horde's pace and by the Horde's lore. The Horde lore is what's moving the game at the moment, and the Alliance is just "there".

I'd actually love the Alliance being an inferior, weaker faction if this will bring me better lore, but the whole big happy family concept is uber-boring, especially when only humans play some kind of part, and the rest of the race leaders are nowhere to be seen. Dalaran is useless because its Alliance-only on paper, but in game its still neutral. The ending scene after the Garrosh fight will likely have a cinematic of Horde leaders, most likely Thrall, doing the talking, with Alliance leaders not even there. Varian should have been the one to confront Garrosh given the history of the two (Ulduar patch trailer says hi).

[Scummer]

Shame we can't see Dalaran above Orgrimmar, I think as it stands some of the big issues atm with the story from an Alliance PoV is the fact most of the changes that make sense are limited by the game whereas the Horde's is not.

In the end the Alliance want the conflict resolved and their land returned as the conflict comes to it's end. This cannot be shown in game and judging by the devs comments after Cata never will.
Dalaran is now an Alliance city. Yet this cannot be shown in game because it would imbalance the cities. It cannot be shown above Orgrimmar because of the problems it would cause.

Then there's stuff that's just poorly shown in game. Such as 5.3. We're going into a war zone with SI:7 to sow discord among the Orc ranks and to gather data on the shores of Durotar for our invasion fleet. The idea is perfectly sound, right down to working with Vol'jin in the end. But what is shown in game is so poor. A robot cat that collects paper. That's not espionage.

The former being one of the biggies. The Alliance goal this war was to restore some semblance of peace and to recover it's land the Horde had waged war upon. This isn't going to happen. Whereas the Horde's is simply to replace the Warchief to bring in an new era of peace for the Horde, this is incredibly easy to show.

What perhaps frustrates me about this is that Blizzard have already acknowledged this Alliance issue. So if that's the case it would make sense to give the Alliance some short stories or another novel to patch up what cannot be shown in game. But this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Out of the three short stories that involve either the Horde or Alliance, all three have only involved the Horde. We also have no news on whether or not we will be receiving a novel at the of this expansion.
I realize this doesn't resolve the issue of things not being shown in game, but it's damn well better than nothing.

[KrazyK923]

We got our MoP novel already, it was Tides of War.

You know, the novel where the Alliance city is blown up by a nuke, its leader goes crazy, our High King loses even more troops in a failed attack on Orgrimmar, and we lose a decent amount of important Alliance higher-ups. B-B-But Garrosh is shown to be mean! That makes it allllll better.

Its ok though, we're seiging the Horde's capital city. I love how Kosak just leaves out "With the Rebellion with the sole purpose of dethroning Garrosh. And then after the Alliance leaves and we don't regain any land nor do anything toward the Horde after." Its fine though, its fine! We get the "Conqueror of Orgrimmar" title. THAT TOTALLY MEANS WE WERE IMPORTANT EVERYONE.

[Confucius]

lol, nice dodging of the fist pump question, Dave

[Deleted]

Its ok though, we're seiging the Horde's capital city. I love how Kosak just leaves out "With the Rebellion with the sole purpose of dethroning Garrosh. And then after the Alliance leaves and we don't regain any land nor do anything toward the Horde after." Its fine though, its fine! We get the "Conqueror of Orgrimmar" title. THAT TOTALLY MEANS WE WERE IMPORTANT EVERYONE.

The funniest thing is when he starts reciting the "Alliance victories/achievements" with the patch nummers of this expansion:
5.1. We stop Garrosh using the bell
5.2. (Uhm...) Dalaran is purged (What?)
5.3. We see the Horde crumble (I'm sorry, the only thing I saw was being Vol'jin's errand boy fuming his rebellion)
5.4. WE SIEGE ORGRIMMAR !!! ()

Comes to show the differences between what we are experiencing and what Blizzard is believing showing story.

[Deleted]

Yes, I'm clearly strawmanning by saying there are people who post that the Horde should be destroyed... You asked for proof and I gave you a bunch of posts where people want the Horde to be destroyed.

Thats not "destroyed" That is just what happens to the losing side.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Theramore was a major event leading into a new expansion. All they did was take a small area and replace it with an empty crater.

So they can take Dalaran, and replace NPC's there with Alliance and Kirin Tor ones the same to further the story, easy as pie.