Horde racial's are overpowered. Why isn't this being addressed?

[cyqu]

How did I not just say world first guilds are a totally different story?

Are you in a world first guild?

did you even read anything on that topic linked?

none of the guild listed in that thread are method or blood legion. they are all higher end guild that are all switching to horde just for the benefits of racials. im sorry that you do not take pve seriously and therefor cannot understand why anyone would want to do this, you are obviously a moron playing devils advocate for the sake of causing an up roar from people who are bringing up legitimate facts about a serious imbalance in the game.

[Stolberg]

did you even read anything on that topic linked?

none of the guild listed in that thread are method or blood legion. they are all higher end guild that are all switching to horde just for the benefits of racials. im sorry that you do not take pve seriously and therefor cannot understand why anyone would want to do this, you are obviously a moron playing devils advocate for the sake of causing an up roar from people who are bringing up legitimate facts about a serious imbalance in the game.

I'd love to be able to thumbs up!

[NatePsy]

Is Human racial still making it so you no longer need Insignia? If so, don't complain about Horde being overpowered.

[Funky Kong]

Is Human racial still making it so you no longer need Insignia? If so, don't complain about Horde being overpowered.

Human racial's FANTASTIC for PvE DPS.

[Deleted]

Dwarf tanks break Iron Qon without even needing a paladin in the raid.

I want a Half Dwarf Half Night Elf tank... possible ?

[Funky Kong]

Blizzard nerfed Will of the Forsaken into the ground, supposedly for being over-powered in PvP. Then they gave the same ability to humans and nobody seemed to mind. Horde favoritism indeed.

Notice how this is in the RAIDS AND DUNGEONS forum.
I'd argue that Touch of the Grave is more useful than Every Man for Himself

[Noujou]

This has been a problem that's been known for a long time. I've been playing Horde for a while, but at first i was Alliance up until seeing the advantages the horde had. Since then, i have spent hundreds of dollars moving alts to a high populated server (Illidan) in order to progress in Heroic raiding at a very fast pace. But in the back of my head, i know i want to be Alliance, and i would much rather be on the other faction.

Why hasn't blizzard fixed the racial's so people can play what they want rather than what they need? Have they said anything about fixing this in the future? by no means will i quit the game because of this, but i'd enjoy it a whole lot more being able to play my faction of choice.

unless you are a min-max'er (which i think is safe to assume you are, since you just spend hundreds of dollars moving alts to illidan)...racials aren't that big a deal...unless you pvp...then always roll human GG

[Sierra85]

horde are agressive racials
alliance are defensive racials

right?

[Deleted]

Horde racials bring their raids at least a 10% dps and healing increase respect the ones of the alliance. Oh wait! It is not even a 1%? So the one who is complaining is one of the 0.01% of the players who strugle to get the world first kill of every raid! Neither? Ah ok, next threat.

[NatePsy]

Human racial's FANTASTIC for PvE DPS.

Why does it matter whether one faction is more OP than the other in terms of PvE? I'm aware of the world first race, but outside of that who exactly is it hurting? A very small scale problem. When I see the word overpowered, I think PvP and I'm sure a lot of others do aswell. Just makes no sense for the OP to claim Horde racials are overpowered when there's a very small amount of people competing for world firsts compared to PvP and Human's racial.

[Cairhiin]

Since almost 40% of the Horde is Blood Elf, and we pretty much got one of the worst racial (after the Arcane Torrent nerf) I don't see it as a huge issue. Alliance has better PvP racials, Horde PvE. Though as a Belf myself, I'm just in favor of removing them all, and making race choice purely an aesthetic one. And if nothing else, just add flavor racials, so people will stop crying about it.

[Keashaa]

Class stacking for heroic progression is way more effective then counting on racials.
Besides, only orcs and trolls have strong racials. Compare this to humans, night elves and worgen, it's pretty much even.

[Gondlem]

Speaking as someone in a competitive guild that is still holding out hope and staying alliance, the biggest issue is really Beastslaying.

Some of the other horde racials are also a bit strong, mostly troll for specs that benefit from on-demand haste and orcs to a lesser extent, but really the only time it's a "you've got to be kidding me" sort of crazy imbalance is for beast bosses, where every class in a horde raid except paladins do 5% more damage than their alliance counterparts. That's really silly, and frankly there's just no justification for something so absurd existing in the game.

If Blizzard simply deleted beastslaying, straight up removed that ability from the game, that would solve a lot of the problems, because right now there's a serious danger that one of the beast bosses in any given tier will be extremely hard, and if that happens, it's going to be gamebreaking for alliance. Imagine for instance if a fight the difficulty of Ragnaros or Lei Shen was a beast, and horde did 5% more damage on that boss. It's just something that should never happen.

That aside, racials are still a bit of a problem, and every guild that goes horde makes it harder for the remaining alliance guilds at the top end of raiding because the alliance community shrinks, your friends in other guilds are all horde, and there's less and less incentive to stick it out and keep some semblance of faction balance at the top of PvE.

There's a lot of easy fixes on top of deleting Beastslaying. My preferred option would just be to mirror the racials. Make, for instance, worgen and troll racials do the same thing, human and orc, night elf and blood elf, tauren and dwarf... and so on. So you could pick from whichever race you wanted, for either aesthetic or min/max reasons, and faction difference was non-existent. I expect something like this will happen in 6.0, or all racials will go cosmetic.

[Mormolyce]

Well, explaining it again, I'm reforging out of all pieces that give hit to anything else and I'm still at 16%+. after 2/3 patches of raiding over an expansion you have enough hit that even a 1% stamina racial would be more useful... also, the point that you don't know the meaning of burst is incredible, if you knew the meaning of it, you'd know the importance of a 20% haste buff.

Did you start playing yesterday or something?

I never stated that you need to faction change to troll to play the game.

We aren't discussing the faction changing thing here, just that the troll's racial is overpowered compared to any other racial. The only ones that can even compare are orc's and pandaren's.

So, if you can do around 200k dps with any other race, a 0.5% increase on that, would lead you to do 210k dps. I think that's a pretty good increase, not sure about you... if you are calculating on a 50k dps basis, yea... it wouldn't mean a thing.

Blah blah blah, I claim racials are a huge DPS boost and yet do not actually have any idea how big they really are.

On the other hand, why does there have to be a gap?

Well I have already said several times that the racials are imbalanced and should really be removed. Ghostcrawler has said the same thing IIRC. That said, they're not a big deal except to world-first raiders and people who mindlessly ape them.

The point here is that class stacking is available to everyone - burst is imbalanced but thats kinda OK because it's the exact same for every guild. Racials are not, only 1 faction has the possibility of having an advantage.

Not sure where you're getting 0.4% from either - it was 8% over a 20 second window when it lasts 10. It's very close to 1%, and much, much more than that in certain situations (think ambershaper burn or magmaw, where important damage is concentrated into a small window that magnifies the effect). Guilds that aren't world first struggle with dps checks as well - we're barely in US top 20 for 25 man guilds and would have loved Berserking on Horridon, Durumu, Lei Shen, etc.

Class stacking is available to everyone? I think you're completely missing the point. Stacking classes and swapping factions are both shitty things. And both things which people outside world first guilds should not feel pressure to do.

I showed you the maths anyway. It lasts 10 seconds with a 3 min CD. In order to raise your overall DPS by 1% it would have to amount to an 18% increase during that 10 seconds (1/(10/180)).

And yeah everyone has DPS checks to meet, doesn't mean casual guilds are about to swap factions for a racial. That's what I was responding to.

If this was true, then you'd also be able to apply it to
1) Talents
2) Specs (within reason)

But as Ghostcrawler has said before, even the heroic raiders that aren't "World Firsts" will push for advantages they can get (He says this almost every time some talent is brought up, or a spec underperforming the rest, like buffing it too much and everyone will pick it/reroll that spec), like "Server First", which actually gets a guild FoS (World First only gives a Server First as far as I know at least, too lazy to look it up).

I'm pretty sure there's tons of people out there also that care about just having the top DPS, even if their guild/raid group doesn't push for it, they just like playing to do the top DPS in their raid group.

Those things are a matter of clicking a button.

And in any case it's true, some people even in Heroic raiding guilds sometimes pick talents and specs they prefer over the ones that are technically BiS. My guild is now Realm First and back in DS I remember two of our Rogues took Assass whenever they could, even though Combat was ahead of it at the time.

[Zafire]

The Human racial, Every Man for Himself: Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character. This effect shares a cooldown with other similar effects.

The Forsaken racial, Will of the Forsaken: Removes any Charm, Fear and Sleep effect. This effect shares a 30 sec cooldown with other similar effects.

Please. Explain how the Forsaken racial is better. The Human one is a copy of the PVP ccbreaker trinket, while the Forsaken racial only breaks Charm, Fear, and Sleep effects, and puts your PVP ccbreaker trinket on cooldown. Humans have been the single best race to play for PVP for years, even before WotF's nerf. Simply not needing the ccbreaker trinket allows them to wear both the on-use and the proc damage trinkets, and it's not uncommon to see them wearing both the current season, and previous season proc trinkets. As opposed to every other race that actually needs their ccbreaker. How is the Forsaken racial better?

The Forsaken racial had a huge advantage over any team that had a priest or warlock in it. Just because it shares a 30 second cooldown doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to reap the benefits of an extra CC break.

[Mormolyce]

did you even read anything on that topic linked?

none of the guild listed in that thread are method or blood legion. they are all higher end guild that are all switching to horde just for the benefits of racials. im sorry that you do not take pve seriously and therefor cannot understand why anyone would want to do this, you are obviously a moron playing devils advocate for the sake of causing an up roar from people who are bringing up legitimate facts about a serious imbalance in the game.

I quit raiding earlier this year but before that I was in a heroic raiding guild, and I never race changed a single one of my toons. Plenty of people in my raid team back when I was playing had races that were not technically "the best". Some of them had no DPS racials at all.

If you're a casual raider and you faction change for racials then YOU are a moron.

[OrcsRLame]

And like I pointed out above, his numbers if true translate to 0.4% of DPS. I thought you were saying the numbers were different for a Demo lock?

The fact that you can't even quantify the DPS gain throws your entire argument into question, don't you think? Don't you think it's strange that you're so convinced that it's a massive DPS gain and yet you don't actually know how big a DPS gain it is?



No shit it's there. Does that mean casual players are forced to faction change just to play the game? Nope.



True, but burst is not something Blizzard even balances across classes. Remember Spine progression? KIN raiders got the world first by stacking their raid with Mages and Rogues. There are bigger problems than racials if you're worried about burst DPS.

I'd say 0.4% is well within my definition of negligible, considering my DPS varies by more like 5% from pull to pull.

If you're a world first raider then maybe it's reasonable that 0.4% is not negligible. But they are INSANE.

- - - Updated - - -



Don't know why it's so complicated, if you're not a world first raider then 0.5%-1% DPS is not worth worrying about. I thought this would be self-evident.

Also indicates you're far too focused on things like racials, when the real gap between you and those world first raiders is fight execution and skill with your class. Racials are nothing next to that gap. If you want to play on their level, racials are the least of your concerns.

Why? Because you said so?

Also, I don't compare myself to world first raiders, because I haven't played the game since Firelands, (though I intend to come back in like 3-4 months) back when I did raid though, I've had some top 10 WoL parses as warrior and mage. But that was so long ago it's not really relevant.

Anywho, with statements like, "Also indicates you're far too focused on things like racials, when the real gap between you and those world first raiders is fight execution and skill with your class." you seem to imply that having good racials is mutually exclusive with changing your own performance, when it's actually not. Why can't you get a better racial through a race change and focus on improving your own play? Hell, you could even use the ~hour of downtime during the race change, (or however long it takes these days) to look over logs and do some theorycrafting, so with proper time management you literally lose nothing by switching to a better racial.

[Deleted]

Horde racial = PvE
Alliance racial = PvP

[Deleted]

We recently (like 3 weeks ago) switched to horde because of the number of applicants that would just instantly turn us down for being alliance. So far we've gotten 5 applications and a dude from a high end guild got a trial without an app. We'd be lucky to see that many in a patch cycle before.

We're not the best guild in the world and our rankings certainly won't improve just because of racials but when there's like 3 alliance guilds in the top10 it's pretty logical that raiders gravitate towards horde.

[Inthislzon]

Why? Because you said so?

If you are not a world first raider chances are improving your rotation while on the move (for example) will get you a MUCH bigger increase than swapping worgen for troll.